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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 06:34 AM Feb 2014

Ancient oaks and pines from 5,000-year-old forest rise as Welsh beach is washed away

Surreal seascape revealed by the storms: Ancient oaks and pines from 5,000-year-old forest rise as Welsh beach is washed away.



Rising from the beach in a surreal seascape, the remains of these ancient trees have been revealed by the storms.

Thought to date back to the Bronze Age, the shin-high stumps became visible for the first time when the peat which once covered them was washed away in torrential rain and waves pounding the shore.

Now they stud the beach near the village of Borth, Ceredigion, Mid Wales – an area already rich in archaeology, opposite the alleged site of Wales’s own take on the lost city of Atlantis.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2564285/5-000-year-old-forest-unearthed-storms-Beach-washed-away-reveal-ancient-oaks-pines.html#ixzz2tx3RBPck

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Ancient oaks and pines from 5,000-year-old forest rise as Welsh beach is washed away (Original Post) dipsydoodle Feb 2014 OP
15,000 years ago .. the land bridge map Ichingcarpenter Feb 2014 #1
I took home a shell from an 8,000 year old oyster midden near Sligo. aquart Feb 2014 #9
However, this was 5000 years ago, ie 3000 BC - the Neolithic muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #14
I would love to get my hands on some of that wood.... Lochloosa Feb 2014 #2
I guess you'd need an angle grinder to cut it dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #3
Or some dynamite. Lochloosa Feb 2014 #4
That would go down reallY well in the UK. dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #6
Protected National Monument? Ghost Dog Feb 2014 #11
No - Contravention of the Explosives Act. dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #12
USA's the best source of 'legal' hardwood, bog oak and such, anyway. Ghost Dog Feb 2014 #20
they'd be wood whistles eShirl Feb 2014 #13
They would indeed. And very fine instruments too, when made well. Ghost Dog Feb 2014 #19
So would I ChazInAz Feb 2014 #7
"stump in the picture looks like it was cut with a saw" FiveGoodMen Feb 2014 #8
They were building wood henges. aquart Feb 2014 #10
Me too. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #18
I bet it was a modern cut for dating Yo_Mama Feb 2014 #22
I was thinking that very same thing. Phlem Feb 2014 #21
Wow. So much in that story: Squinch Feb 2014 #5
I noticed that cut dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #16
Maybe not modern climate change Yo_Mama Feb 2014 #23
Interesting! Thank you. I wonder if some day people will be pointing to Squinch Feb 2014 #24
They made some changes to Mississippi flow Yo_Mama Feb 2014 #25
This may be one of the forests the Romans destroyed WhiteTara Feb 2014 #15
Wow. This picture looking back to the shore really spurs the imagination: freshwest Feb 2014 #17
Very cool. enlightenment Feb 2014 #26

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
1. 15,000 years ago .. the land bridge map
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 06:59 AM
Feb 2014



By about 12000 BC plant cover began to appear in Ireland. For a thousand years, Ireland was a place of open meadows. Possibly still not an island, Ireland begins to take shape about 12,000 to 11,000 radiocarbon years ago (perhaps 11500 to 10000 BC). The following map gives a little more detail of the peninsula that would become the British Isles as the sea levels continued to increase.

About 11000 BC junipers began to appear. This, tough, low-statured evergreen survives well on poor soils, and thrived in the warming climate. Other plants and animals, including the Giant Deer and Reindeer, also arrived, crossing land bridges from the English mainland ito Ireland. At 11,000 to 10,000 radiocarbon years ago (or perhaps 10500 to 9000 BC) the ice fields are shown to have receded a great deal as shown on this map, as well as on this map

Estimated between 11000 to 9000 BC the earth's temperature fluctuated, dropped overall, and subsequent periods of glaciation again occurred in Ireland. Possibly due to disease and/or a loss of food supply, the Giant Deer (Megaceros) became extinct in Ireland and the Reindeer disappeared from Ireland.

Dates on the freshwater sediments found on the shelf of the Irish Sea, coupled with the results of geophysical modelling of Earth crustal rebound from ice loading, suggest a severence of any landbridge connection between Britain and Ireland by 10000 BC (again, plus or minus a few thousand years depending on the paleogeographic model). It is interesting to note on the figure to the left that 15000 years ago the landbridge was thought to be in the south, at a time when the glacial ice (in red) had receded into Ulster and northern Scotland (click for larger view). This image is copyright of K. Lambeck, P. Johnston, C. Smither, K. Fleming and Y. Yokoyama from their article entitled Late Pleistocene and Holocene sea-level change

After about 9000 BC, the climate again warmed, the juniper spread, and the birch appeared in large numbers for the first time. Pine, elm and other forest trees also appeared, and Ireland began a long-term process of forestation. Other plants and animals crossed the land bridges as well. Red deer, wild boar, possibly bears, red squirrels, pine-martens, Wolves, foxes, stoats, and eagles and other birds of prey took up residence. Fish and game birds were soon present in abundance.

The Arrival of Humans

The first definite evidence of human settlement in Ireland dates from 8000 to 7000 BC. They are known from early archaeological findings to have made an appearance in the far north in the lower Bann valley near present-day Coleraine and in the southwest in the Shannon estuary. Later they are thought to spread northeast along the coast of Antrim and followed the Bann upstream to Lough Neagh. They also settled down to an industrious existence on the shore of Larne Lough just north of present-day Belfast, where they chipped flints for implements. These people, mesolithic hunter-gatherers without domestic animals or farming skills, huddled for the most part along the coasts and waterways. As a consequence, these eary arrivals had little impact on the environment.


http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ancient.htm

aquart

(69,014 posts)
9. I took home a shell from an 8,000 year old oyster midden near Sligo.
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 01:40 PM
Feb 2014

Had no idea it was the beginning of things.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
3. I guess you'd need an angle grinder to cut it
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 09:09 AM
Feb 2014

When I get the time I'll drive over there for a nose around at low tide.

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
11. Protected National Monument?
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 02:43 PM
Feb 2014

Or ripe for exploitation... Hmm. On a small artesanal scale perhaps?

I'd love to get a pair of tin whistles made out of that wood, once dried and seasoned in air.

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
19. They would indeed. And very fine instruments too, when made well.
Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:14 PM
Feb 2014

Still a thin whistle, though.

[center]

http://www.tinwhistler.com/reviews.aspx [/center]

I've recently picked up again a 42-year-old Generation D from Limerick City, on which I used to play some Irish, as a lad. I'm looking to get jazz out of it now...

ChazInAz

(2,567 posts)
7. So would I
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 01:02 PM
Feb 2014

I'd love to use it for knife handles, the way I have with a couple of specimens of bog oak. The stuff needs to be dried thoroughly and slowly...no kilns for this material!
Funny thing: that stump in the picture looks like it was cut with a saw.

aquart

(69,014 posts)
10. They were building wood henges.
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 01:47 PM
Feb 2014

And we look for post holes to show us where buildings stood, so, yes, they had a way to cut trees cleanly.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
22. I bet it was a modern cut for dating
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:27 PM
Feb 2014

I don't see any others that look like that in the pics. All the rest looked naturally eroded.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
21. I was thinking that very same thing.
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:27 AM
Feb 2014

just a guess, price per square or lineal around $100 per.

Wish I had the money.

-p

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
5. Wow. So much in that story:
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 10:14 AM
Feb 2014

Such huge effects of climate change that thousands of years of peat are being washed away

That stump in the foreground looks cleanly cut. Wonder what the story is behind that.

Hope they find the remains of this Cantre’r Gwaelod. It sounds like it was a town or settlement at some point.

What an unbelievably cool photo!

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
23. Maybe not modern climate change
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:58 PM
Feb 2014

This site is probably due to ancient climate change and perhaps subsidence. The modern emergence might be related to a manmade change of course of a river which used to flow into Cardigan Bay.

The article said that scientists routinely check the area after very big storms because peat gets washed away and interesting things emerge. It also discusses the legend of the sunken city (which since they found the remants of an ancient marsh walkway seems pretty likely).

The progression of the area is that it was high enough for the trees, then it got low enough to be a bog, then it seems it was at least partly submerged.

This is a picture from 2010:


Wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Submerged_forest_at_Ynyslas,_Ceredigion.jpg

This is an estuary associated with a river, which was diverted in the early 1800s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afon_Leri

As happened in Louisiana (Mississippi flood control measures), this may have changed silt deposition and now be allowing natural forces to erode the beaches. This river used to flow into Cardigan Bay, which is associated with the lost city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantre'r_Gwaelod

Cantre'r Gwaelod is described as a low-lying land fortified against the sea by a dyke, Sarn Badrig (Saint Patrick's causeway), with a series of sluice gates which were opened at low tide to drain the land.[2]


There is something so seductive about tales of lost cities! But estuary cities are known to be very vulnerable, because they basically rest on a pile of silt. Earthquakes plus tsunamis can destroy them by flooding.

This article gives the dating of the submerged trees at Borth to be later than the ones in Cardigan Bay:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/5016240.stm
The oldest part of the submerged forest is thought to date back to 3500 BC, although other sections, at Borth, near Aberystwyth, are believed to date back to 1500 BC.

It can be seen from near Aberystwyth to Aberdyfi and Tywyn up the coast in Gwynedd.


I had never heard of this place or that legend, and I've enjoyed learning something!

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
24. Interesting! Thank you. I wonder if some day people will be pointing to
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 11:29 PM
Feb 2014

New Orleans as a lost estuary city. If so, hopefully it will be a few thousand year away.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
25. They made some changes to Mississippi flow
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:21 AM
Feb 2014

to try to increase the dumping of sediments. I don't know that it's enough.

I agree, I hope that day is long away.

The natural world is fascinating, and it's rather intimidating that we so seldom understand the consequences of what we do.

WhiteTara

(29,705 posts)
15. This may be one of the forests the Romans destroyed
Fri Feb 21, 2014, 07:51 PM
Feb 2014

in their efforts to subdue the Druids who worshiped the trees.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
17. Wow. This picture looking back to the shore really spurs the imagination:
Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:09 AM
Feb 2014


Thanks, very interesting sights.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
26. Very cool.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:28 AM
Feb 2014

These extreme weather patterns are certainly uncovering a lot of archaeology in the UK. I'm reading Barry Cunliffe's Britain Begins right now - this fits in precisely with the story he tells.

Thank you for posting the link.

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