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jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 12:46 PM Mar 2016

Neanderthals may have used manganese dioxide for fire

LEIDEN, Netherlands, March 1 (UPI) -- Until now, researchers assumed high concentrations of the black ore known as manganese dioxide at Neanderthal sites was explained by its use as a coloring agent in cave and body painting.

But new research suggests Neanderthals may have deliberately sourced the organic chemical for making fire.

Lab experiments conducted by a team of researchers in the Netherlands proved that the presence of manganese dioxide reduces auto-ignition temperature of wood and boosts its rate of char combustion -- making it easier to start and maintain hot and efficient fires.

As the scientists argue in their new paper on the subject -- published in the journal Scientific Reports -- regular fires would have provided Neanderthals with plenty of ash and charcoal for coloring. Collecting manganese dioxide for cave and body painting would have been redundant and an unwise use of energy.

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2016/03/01/Neanderthals-may-have-used-manganese-dioxide-for-fire/4541456851348/

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HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
1. Republican like fire! Fire good!
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 12:48 PM
Mar 2016

By the way, the article say manganese dioxide is organic. That doesn't sound right to me.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
2. One example- Iron was literally found on the surface of the earth.
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 12:58 PM
Mar 2016

This is one of the reasons I've been so discouraged for so long. I can imagine what it must have been like. Precious minerals and elements in a beautiful world with rivers and animals. Not the shit we see today with cars and roads and drive-thrus. A difficult and beautiful world. They probably found these things by accident when burning fires.

xocet

(3,871 posts)
7. I wondered that as well. Here is an interesting discussion & answer from chemistry.stackexchange....
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:31 PM
Mar 2016
We should not define organic compounds. As F'x pointed out in the comments, the distinction between organic and inorganic is largely arbitrary and mostly based on a distortion of historical precedent.

Rather, we should classify compounds by the type(s) of bonding interaction present in the substance. By this criterion, we have several classes of compounds:

...

Under this system, what we traditionally study as organic chemistry becomes redefined as the study of the structure, properties, and reactions of covalent compounds (Classes 1 and 3), especially the nature of the covalent bond and how it can be formed and broken selectively. What you might learn about the structure, properties, and reactions of organic compounds can easily be extended to the structure, properties, and reactions of molecular inorganic compounds. For example, we do not need two different branches of chemistry to study benzene and borazine.

...

http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/6690/what-is-the-definition-of-organic-compounds/6706#6706

xocet

(3,871 posts)
12. Interesting...
Thu Mar 3, 2016, 02:01 AM
Mar 2016

There seem to be many different forms of manganese oxide that they consider. MnO is mentioned and MnO2 is also mentioned.

...

Supplementary Information 6 - Proposed Combustion Mechanism

We propose that the mechanism in facilitating combustion involves the low temperature decomposition of manganese dioxide, stimulated by the reactive gases derived from wood pyrolysis and the consequent release of oxygen that both reduces the critical temperature for ignition and increases the rate of char combustion. Pure manganese dioxide with a β-MnO2 structure decomposes on heating, releasing oxygen in several stages, to Mn2O3 at 631oC, to Mn3O4 (hausmannite) at 963oC and finally to MnO at temperatures above 1300oC (21,22). The TGAs of the manganese dioxides without wood (Supplementary Information 5) show a first decomposition temperature of 555oC for MD4 (96% MnO2) and approximately 640oC for the Pech-de-l'Azé I material MD3 and no further transition below 900oC. However, in contrast to the very high temperatures required to produce hausmannite, XRD confirmed that the manganese dioxides and Pech-de-l'Azé I blocs transformed to hausmannite during combustion at the comparatively low temperatures in the combustion experiments (Figure 2 and Supplementary Information 4). The presence of reactive gases has a strong effect on manganese dioxide decomposition, lowering the temperature of transformation to MnO from over 1300oC to around 450oC (23,24,25). The pyrolysis of biomass materials has a similar effect, allowing manganese dioxide to decompose to MnO at temperatures between 300oC and 500oC (26). In a similar manner, wood produces reactive, chemically-reducing volatile compounds as it undergoes thermal decomposition of the hemi-cellulose to volatile organic compounds followed at higher temperatures by the decomposition of the cellulose and lignin (27). The beech wood used in the combustion experiments releases volatile organic compounds above 220oC with a peak rate at 300oC (Figure 4a). We suggest that the reducing gases and volatile organic compounds released in the initial decomposition of wood provide a reactive environment at the manganese dioxide surface that lowers the decomposition temperature to approximately 290oC to 300oC. The decomposition of manganese dioxide to hausmannite releases oxygen that reacts with the char, producing the glowing combustion. The overall effects of the manganese dioxide are a substantial reduction in the auto-ignition temperature of the wood and a substantially increased rate of combustion (Figure 4). Continuing combustion is supported by oxygen from the air. The initial thermal input for initiating wood pyrolysis, manganese dioxide decomposition and the modest temperatures required for auto-ignition can be produced with spark-lit tinder; under identical conditions wood alone does not ignite. The manganite (Υ-MnOOH) found in most of the blocs transforms to manganese dioxide at 300oC (18) and probably contributes to the combustion process

32 | Page

Support for the mechanism is provided by the lack of effect shown by the thermally stable oxides, zinc oxide, aluminium oxide and titanium dioxide that do not release oxygen when heated to temperatures normally experienced in a wood fire. Whereas manganese dioxide facilitates wood ignition, no such effect was found with wood and romanèchite (hydrated barium manganese oxide) mixtures. The lack of effect of romanèchite on wood ignition is perhaps explained by the significantly higher temperatures required for the decomposition of romanèchite, the lower amounts of oxygen released (22) and a reduced effect of wood decomposition volatiles on the decomposition process for romanèchite (see the DTGs for MD7 and MD7 and wood mixtures in Supplementary Information 5).

33 | Page

...

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160229/srep22159/extref/srep22159-s1.pdf


Please forgive my ignorance, but does the electronegativity difference method ((O) 3.44 - (Mn) 1.55 = 1.89) of determining bond type work for compounds that have multiple types? Would MnO, MnO2 and Mn2O3 all share the same bond types based on the same difference calculation?

The following webpage lists MnO2 as containing 1 covalently bonded unit:



My chemistry is very rusty, and my physical chemistry is non-existent. How would one characterize chemical bond type in terms of quantum mechanics? Is there an expectation value of some kind that can be calculated and associated with a bond type?

At any rate, thanks for any suggestions or corrections that you may offer.

For fun, here are their related videos:


muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
14. You're right - I did link to the wrong manganese oxide
Thu Mar 3, 2016, 06:53 AM
Mar 2016

MnO, where the Neanderthals were using MnO2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_dioxide . My chemistry is very rusty too.

However, I'm not sure what PubChem's 'covalently-bonded unit count' means; it's given as '1' for the Mn2+ ion, as well:

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Manganese_2__#section=Computed-Properties

which is, of course, an ion with a single nucleus, so it cannot have a bond inside it, and you can't consider the nature of its bonds without saying what it's bonding to.

This paper does look at the manganese-oxygen bonds in the way you suggest

http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM69/AM69_788.pdf

it talks of "the classical ionic bonding model of Pauling" for manganese oxides, but concludes

" The calculations show that the bonding in man-
ganese(IV) oxides is mostly covalent. The strong covalency
of the Mn4+ -O bond is also in agreement with the
strong Lewis acidity of Mna* in aqueous environments.
In contrast, the bonding in the Mn2+ cluster is mostly
ionic; this is in agreement with the tendency for Mn2* to
act as a weak Lewis acid and as an exchangable cation in
sedimentary environment."

What I've also found out is that samples of 'manganese dioxide' typically do not contain manganese in the ratio of 1 to 2, but about 1 to 1.85. So it is all complicated, but there is a covalent aspect of the bonding, after all. But I would say that if MnO2 is regarded as 'organic', then the word is so all-encompassing that it becomes almost meaningless.

xocet

(3,871 posts)
15. Thank you for your commentary. I also do not know what to make of 'covalently-bonded unit count'...
Thu Mar 3, 2016, 12:40 PM
Mar 2016

given what you noted regarding its value being stated as 1 for the Mn2+ ion.

Thanks for the link to that interesting paper, too. The approach to the calculation that they take is not something of which I was aware:

The electronic structures of manganese oxide minerals
David M. Sherman


...

A complete description of the electronic structure of a mineral can only be achieved using band theory. However, the accurate calculation of electronic energy bands in solids with more than a few atoms per unit cell is often infeasible. In theory, the electronic states of a mineral must be invariant under the operations of its crystallographic space group. In practice, one often finds that the electronic structure of a system is only weakly dependent upon the translational periodicity of the atomic arrangements. This follows because electrons in solids are generally localized to small atomic regions. This localized nature suggests an alternative, albeit less rigorous approach to investigating the electronic structure of minerals. Following Tossell and Gibbs (1977), it shall be referred to as the cluster molecular orbital method (for a detailed discussion, see Slater, 1974). Here, the electronic structure of a solid is approximated by that of a finite cluster of atoms. For example, the electronic structure of MnO might be approximated by that of an octahedral MnO6,10- cluster. Ideally, the atomic cluster is large enough to accommodate most of the spatial dimensions over which an electron is delocalized in the solid. In general, as the atomic cluster becomes infinitely large, its electronic structure will converge to that of the solid. However, if the electrons in the solid are fairly localized, then this convergence limit might be approximately achieved by the electronic structure of a small cluster of atoms.

...

http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM69/AM69_788.pdf


Cool stuff!

eppur_se_muova

(36,261 posts)
11. It isn't. If it doesn't contain bonds to carbon, it's inorganic.
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 08:19 PM
Mar 2016

If it contains carbon, it *might* be organic, but some special carbon compounds (metal carbides, etc.) are excluded.

xocet

(3,871 posts)
13. A quick question if I might...
Thu Mar 3, 2016, 02:11 AM
Mar 2016

Upthread I linked to a chemistry.stackexchange.com comment regarding the idea of classifying a compound as inorganic or organic versus classifying the compound by its bond type(s?). The stackexchange comment made the claim that:

We should not define organic compounds. As F'x pointed out in the comments, the distinction between organic and inorganic is largely arbitrary and mostly based on a distortion of historical precedent.

...

http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/6690/what-is-the-definition-of-organic-compounds/6706#6706


What is the modern thinking on this issue? Does one system of classification supersede the other system or are both useful but in different contexts?

Warpy

(111,255 posts)
3. The closer they look at Neanderthals, the smarter the Neanderthals get
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 01:01 PM
Mar 2016

I wonder if the migrations out of Africa could have survived without their help. I know they'd have had a much harder time without some of the immune system functions Neanderthals contributed to our genome.

Warpy

(111,255 posts)
5. I watched an onine documentary last night
Wed Mar 2, 2016, 01:33 PM
Mar 2016

that went deeply in to their tool making ability. Turns out there is a complex set of motions to go through to shape a rock so that multiple tools can then be flaked off, which is what Neanderthals did. The flint knapper who finally figured it out said it took him 18 months to nail down the process. As the Neanderthal tools were used, they could also be sharpened fairly easily. Not bad for people who were assumed to communicate in grunts, even though they had perfectly functional hyoid bones to enable speech.

Modern facial reconstructions are also helping to rehabilitate them. They really didn't look that different from a lot of us. They were gingers, you know, short but not resembling apes or chimps in the slightest.

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