Would you kill for god?

[cynatnite]

I was reading an article about Abraham and his son Isaac. It got me thinking about those who are religious. If their god asked them, would they kill?

What do you suppose they would say?

[bravenak]

1. Fundies would say yes. They love the Old Testament.

The more liberal types would say no, hell no. They prefer Jesus.

[dimbear]

13. Don't lets forget that Peter flat kills Saphirah and Ananais right there in Acts 5:

a particularly cold blooded crime since it originates in a little shortchanging.

[trotsky]

2. This has been posed before in the Religion group.

It, of course, was roundly attacked by the Arbiters of All Things.

They get quite irate when the tough questions are asked. Wouldn't want anyone's beliefs challenged, of course.

[pokerfan]

3. Where do you want this killin' done?

Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man you must be puttin' me on"
God says, "No", Abe say "What?"
God say "You can do what you want Abe but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe said, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God say, "Out on Highway 61."

[FiveGoodMen]

4. Dylan has a way with words

"Kill me a son" indeed.

And even the 'liberal' Christians set aside Sunday School time to inform their helpless children that their parents are ready and willing to kill them.

(They do point out that God doesn't say that very often, but I don't think that's good enough)

[pokerfan]

5. I learned that story in Sunday school

Complete with illustrations. Found it appalling.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. I'd say 'fuck you, kill him yourself'.

Ought to be easy for a supposedly omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being.

Hell, said being could erase target human from the planet, it's history, even living memories of other people.
First clue no supernatural deity wants someone dead is that alleged deity wants *you* to do it.

[Warpy]

7. They'd say "of course!"

but most of them are neither zealots nor sociopaths, so the possibility rarely comes up.

[defacto7]

8. "so the possiblility rarely comes up"

That's to say they put the hard questions on ignore and sing a praise song instead.

[defacto7]

9. The other middle ground I have heard

is that "It's not the killing, but being willing that is the lesson learned."

Supposedly some say it's a story that teaches faith in god's omniscience. Well I say screw that since it just promotes masses of people to follow their's or someone else's directive from god unthinkingly.

Gee, How do I feel what god's will is right now? I wonder what he wants me to do without question? What did that preacher say the other day? I better follow without question no matter how logically wrong it seems. -sarcasm of course- This kind of practiced thinking does promote anti-social and intolerant behavior in the least.

[Lordquinton]

10. And God said unto Abraham

"What would you do for a Klondike bar?"

[BlueJazz]

11. I'd kill for a Klondike bar.

Opps....didn't see the above post.

[Lordquinton]

14. Great minds think alike

And fools seldom differ.

[Curmudgeoness]

12. This was one of the stories in the Bible

that lead me to where I am today. It is an appalling thing to ask. Besides, if god is so omnipotent, and sees and knows everything, he should already have known Abraham's heart and known that he had belief and trust in god. There should have been no reason to go through the motions.

As to whether I would have ever killed for god, even before I had questioned my beliefs that I was raised with, I would not have killed for god. I guess that I wasn't all that confident in my beliefs, huh?

[Brainstormy]

15. Funny you should say that

because this story exactly marked my first crisis of faith. It was summer, and I was about 12 when we were taught it in Sunday School. I spent an entire week trying to get my head around it and the next week we learned about the fig tree being cursed (for presumably being out of season?) At any rate, that was the beginning of my slide into atheism. I would have arrived here sooner or later, I suspect, but I often wonder how much longer it might have taken if either my family had gone on vacation that week or if two of the Bible's most perplexing stories hadn't been presented back to back.

[Curmudgeoness]

19. Oh, there are sooooo many other stories

that they could have taught that would have had your perplexed. And I am sure that they did. I have come to the conclusion that the believers just do not think very hard about these stories. Like you said, you spent a week worrying over it. I do not think many have thought for two seconds after they got out of Sunday School.

This was one of the horrible things I was taught, but I turned my back completely on religion when I was a late teen and was spending a lot of time reading the Bible. As a woman, my stomach turned at the way they thought of women, and that was really the reason for me to determine that the Bible was written by men, and was used by men to control women as well as people who were beneath these men. It made so much sense to me that it wasn't even a decision that bothered me when I turned my back on the concept of god and religion.

[cynatnite]

16. I can't count the rationalizations for this act that were preached from the pulpit...

I never understood it.

[LostOne4Ever]

17. Anyone who would say yes

Is a horrible horrible person and should be locked up for the safety of society. Imagine if these lunitics had schizophrenia?

Any god who would ever seriously ask of this of someone is Evil.

[skepticscott]

18. What's almost as scary

is the number of people who won't come right out and say no. Including pretty much all of the true believers over in Religion.

[LostOne4Ever]

20. Uggghhh

I don't even know how to respond to that. The point at which a religion says its okay to kill anyone is the point at which it has gone into insane death cult territory and should be condemned. No one should even hesitate in saying no.

What if a person start hallucinating? You have the potential for a serial killer. That is exactly what happened to Andrea Yates isn't it? Or if someone thinks its okay to kill for their religion what is to keep them from thinking they have a right to kill a stranger?

Arrrggggh. That type of attitude is beyond dangerous and not condemning it is reckless

[Humanist_Activist]

21. I asked that question a while ago, the responses were scary...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121812782

I made it more about family, but if people are equivocating on THAT, imagine what they would do to strangers.

[Rob H.]

22. Wow, there was a lot of hair-splitting and attempted deflection

for such a simple, yes-or-no question. My favorite: "...that would be contrary to the character of God as described in the NT." What a tired old dodge. "B-b-but that's bloodthirsty Old Testament God, not fluffy-wuffy New Testament God!" That's exactly the same argument right-wing fundagelical nutjobs use when they're called on their bullshit, too.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. SMH

It should be a simple "no" for everyone. -_-

My Jr. High Math Teacher was a reverend at a local church. He was a cool guy but would preach at you if you went up to him between classes or gave him a chance.

He literally told us that man must love Jesus/God above everything even one's own family. To be willing to sacrifice their own family if so asked.

Scariest damn thing he ever said

One hallucination away from a serial killer.

[Humanist_Activist]

24. You know, I would like to think that most religious people are better than their religion...

and largely that is true, but way too many of them aren't as well, and that is independent of their political affiliation.

When push comes to shove, many of them will choose their God(s) over their fellow human beings, and that is just fucked up and disturbing.

[stone space]

25. This is a question that people face every day.

Not so much with God, but rather with secular authorities in the civil religion.

Would you kill for your country?

Once people start answering "no" in overwhelming numbers, it will become impossible for governments to wage war, and that will be a tremendous step forward for all of humanity.

[JimDandy]

26. God no.

[mzteris]

27. If there were a god

Would it want you to?

[intaglio]

28. You think Abraham was bad? Try the tale of Jephthah and his daughter

Judges
11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
11:32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
11:33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
11:34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
11:35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
11:37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
11:38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
11:39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
11:40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

emphasis mine for clarity

[AlbertCat]

29. Then there's....

Killing.... and THEN saying you did it for god.

[NeoGreen]

30. Yes, but...

...only if god was my target.

Hey Deus....



a little fist bump for ya...

[onager]

31. "Kill them all..."

From the Wikipedia article "Massacre at Beziers."

When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.”

The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.