Some advice to my A&A posting friends

[Heddi]

As I'm sure you've all read, there are new changes to the jury system & how hidden threads will be handled in the future. If you aren't aware, there is a thread here, by Skinner: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10132863

Of note is the new rule that if you have 5 hidden posts in 90 days, you will be barred from posting until the oldest of the 5 posts "falls off" of your record after a period of 90 days.

I bring this up because previously, hidden threads only resulted in a member's transparency page being visible to other members, less chance of serving on a jury, and possibly being given a few-weeks-up-to-a-month time-out in a particular forum (as some of our friends here are aware).

However now, the price for hides is much greater. It will not just potentially get you a time-out from a forum/group, but it will ban you from DU for upwards of 90 days.

If I'm not making myself clear, I will state it outright: There is now an incentive to goad people to reply in a manner that will get their post hidden.

DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT THAT OTHERS ARE GOING TO THROW AT YOU IN HIGH-TENSION FORUMS/GROUPS

There are certain posters, whose names I do not need to mention but whom I feel we all know intimately, who are notorious for making posts that walk right up to that line between "appropriate" and "inappropriate" and yet their posts are never hidden. The responses to those posts are.

There are certain posters, whose names I do not need to mention but whom I feel we all know intimately, whose posts are never hidden, regardless how offensive, bigoted, hateful those posts may be.

We've all seen the jury results: "Well I've seen Athiests say mean things in the past so I'm going to let this slide," "Atheists should grow a thicker skin," "Religious people on DU are a minority so I'm going to let this stay,"etc etc.

Folks, don't fall for the tactics they now have an incentive to employ.

And make no mistakes, THEY WILL EMPLOY IT.

Our voices have already been silenced by the loss of many great members. They left voluntarily or not, and the reasons are not as important as is the fact that their voices are gone.

Some suggestions, if I may:

- use ignore. If you haven't used it before, use it now, and use it generously.

- update your jury blacklist if you haven't. If you are limited by not being a star member, please remember that you can be a star member for as little as $1 for an entire year and greatly increase the number that you can place on your jury blacklist

- employ a "time out" before responding to posts: Wait 10 minutes before replying. Or don't reply at all. As you know, many members on this site seem to exist only to get a rise out of others. Don't feed the trolls and don't take their bait.

- Relinquish your need to "get the last word." We know that bigoted, anti-atheist posts won't be hidden, or at least have a large chance of not being hidden. Don't make their jobs easy. Let their hate stand for all to see.

We all need each other in order for there to be a cohesive voice of rationality on this board. When one of us is silenced, either through banning, voluntary leaving, or banishment from a group/forum, all of our voices are diminished.

Please, realize what these changes mean and how they change the stakes of what were previously just "innocous" posts that resulted in a hide.

<3

hed

[cleanhippie]

1. Great advice. Especially about those that have a last-word compulsion and use lawyer-like language

And tactics to goad others into an emotional response even when their post is hide-worthy but isn't.

IOW, BE the better poster. We already have facts, reason, and critical thought on our side.

[trotsky]

2. Well said, Heddi.

And DU's Ignore feature has taken away the number 1 nuisance for me.

[DonCoquixote]

3. please post this to gd

You have expressed my exact complaints about the new policy. There are people here who are better organized than a wolfpack, and they will work together to weed out those they hate.

[Heddi]

6. check your inbox in a few minutes

[Goblinmonger]

4. Also take note when unnamed individuals ask you the same question over and over

They are trying to get multiple shots at a jury for the same thing. If you frequent Religion, you may have seen me point that out when it is being done. I do that so that others will realize what is going on and to give a heads-up to the jury as well. The best option in this instance is a "one-post-and-walk-away-rather-than-repeating-yourself-over-and-over" rule.

[Heddi]

9. I have noted the behaviour you speak of and your responses to it

I think that is an excellent approach. I also think that posting something like "I feel you are not arguing honestly and I will not continue to engage with you in this conversation until you can make your points without attacking others (or whatever nastiness they're employing)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

5. I am very careful to not make ad hominem arguments.

But when I tell a Christian they don't understand what I'm saying, they call that an ad hominem argument.

Apparently criticizing a Christian in ANY WAY constitutes an ad hominem argument, because they are just so sensitive, you cannot shine any light on their lack of logic.

Wanting them to think must be a capital crime.

[Skittles]

7. you want I should kick some certain poster ass, Heddi?

LEMME AT THEM!!!

[Heddi]

8. Yes, please

[awoke_in_2003]

10. This is why I never knowingly go to R&T...

Now here is a question- let us say we are discussing that forum in this safe haven, am I allowed to say something like "I never wander into that nuthouse"? Or can someone who is trolling here sic a jury on me? Yes, I know that that is a rather benign statement, but some are delicate flowers.

[kdmorris]

11. Someone who is trolling could sic a jury on you

And likely will. Then it's the luck of the draw on what the jury decides.

I once got a post hidden in here for saying "go the fuck away". According to the 6 members I drew, even though I was provoked, I should not have said "the fuck" and could have left it at "go away" which they would not have hidden. But... whatever.

[awoke_in_2003]

12. I miss the days of moderators...

at least then there was a discussion between people who were held accountable instead of a random selection of possible idiots.

[Heddi]

17. No, because many of the perma-hosts were mods

I am forbidden for saying anything about my past as a moderator, however I can tell you that biases and prejudices don't die because of a change in software. if anything, they're easier to hide BECAUSE they're just people chosen at random to judge a thread and not individuals who could theoretically (but not really pratically) be held accountable for bad actions. And I think that many people could state that moderators who made bad decisions weren't held accountable for those actions.

[awoke_in_2003]

19. I only did 2 1/2 terms...

and I was LBN (most of LBN worK was housekeeping)- I guess I wasn't around long enough to see bias, or just couldn't see it from my perspective. While moderating it was hard to get around much without spending way too much time here. Looking back, though, I may see some of what you say in regards to at least one person.

Oh, and being an atheist I recused myself from any R&T alert discussions unless they were blatantly obvious. Maybe that kept me out of a rat's nest.

[dimbear]

13. So just for clarification, what happened to the proposal that you couldn't object to a post

in a place where you couldn't post yourself?

[Heddi]

14. My understanding is that anyone can alert on any thread

in any group or forum, even if they are blocked from participating in that group or fourm.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. That there is horse shit...

if you are banned from a group, you probably have an agenda. They need to fix that.

[Curmudgeoness]

15. Very good advice. And thanks

for making sure that we are all aware of the new rules. It is unfortunate, but true, that there are a few individuals here who intentionally goad atheists to get them to say something that they can alert on. This is one reason that I just do not go into Religion. I just get infuriated and I know that an argument is futile. I would rather stick hot pokers in my eyes. It is a shame that there is never the possibility of having an intelligent discussion with a true believer.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. 90 days seems a bit much.

They needed to do something about people not caring about hides, but 3 months for 5 hides seems extreme.

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]"Religious people on DU are a minority so I'm going to let this stay,"etc etc.

There are people on DU who think that? Some people are delusional. They need to spend the day as a non-believer in Texas if they really want to know what it feels like to be a minority.

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
- employ a "time out" before responding to posts: Wait 10 minutes before replying. Or don't reply at all. As you know, many members on this site seem to exist only to get a rise out of others. Don't feed the trolls and don't take their bait.

Very good advise. On another forum I was on my last warning before a permanent ban when I started doing that and then went over 3 years without getting banned. I would still be there but I stopped playing that online game and if you don't have an active account=> no post.

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]- Relinquish your need to "get the last word." We know that bigoted, anti-atheist posts won't be hidden, or at least have a large chance of not being hidden. Don't make their jobs easy. Let their hate stand for all to see.


This. So much this. Some people only try to win a debate through attrition. They will argue with you ENDLESSLY using the same arguments you already refuted and pure confirmation bias. To them last post=win. The only way to combat these assholes is to simply stop arguing the moment you realize the argument is going around in circles or they are arguing past you.

Creationist cretins are especially bad about doing this.

[awoke_in_2003]

22. Yes, the OP said oldest...

same thing, different word

[Heddi]

23. Yes, that's what I said

Please point me where what I typed below (which is a cut-and-paste from the OP) being different from what you posted:

Of note is the new rule that if you have 5 hidden posts in 90 days, you will be barred from posting until the oldest of the 5 posts "falls off" of your record after a period of 90 days.

I bring this up because previously, hidden threads only resulted in a member's transparency page being visible to other members, less chance of serving on a jury, and possibly being given a few-weeks-up-to-a-month time-out in a particular forum (as some of our friends here are aware).

However now, the price for hides is much greater. It will not just potentially get you a time-out from a forum/group, but it will ban you from DU for upwards of 90 days.

------

how is that different than what you posted? i said UPWARDS of 90 days. Meaning that, at most, if all 5 of your hides were on the same day, you'd be barred from posting for 90 days. UPWARDS of 90 days. Not "more than" 90 days or "totally without a doubt not one second less than 90 days."

[LostOne4Ever]

27. No problem

We all make mistakes

[awoke_in_2003]

21. You mean I ain't the only atheist in Texas?...

[LostOne4Ever]

26. Hey Neighbor

Nice to know there are more of us out here!

[awoke_in_2003]

30. probably more than we think...

Safer to remain in the closet, so to speak. As out spoken as I am, that is one area of my life I dont tell many about

[mr blur]

29. Wise words, Heddi

[JNelson6563]

31. I see someone copied your post

with some changes and put it up in GD. You should be flattered.

Good, smart post Heddi, as usual.

Julie

[skepticscott]

32. Yes, it's a shame that a select group of posters in Religion

seem to have nothing better to do with their lives than troll the internet all day long for shit-stirring articles to smear atheists with. But I find some comfort in the fact that this is the best that DU religionists have to offer. Even people like that know that they'll look even more foolish if they try to actually make rational, coherent arguments to convince people that their "god" exists, so they've given that up and gone to a rather lame Plan B..smear any prominent atheist they can, call atheists "bigots" with every other breath, and hope ignorant people will think that has anything to do with atheism, or whether their sky daddy is actually paying attention.

[deucemagnet]

33. K&R

I'm interested to see if these changes result in increased goading and alerting.