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onager

(9,356 posts)
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 01:55 PM Dec 2013

Good summary of the Nativity myths...

"Everything You Always Wanted to Know About the Nativity, But They Were Afraid To Tell You"

http://imaginaryfriendjesus.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/nativity/

We see these every year from the non-believer side, but this one is especially well done, IMO.

Especially the parts of the myth that may have been stolen directly from the Xians' favorite historian, Flavius Josephus.

Thought about posting this in Religion. Just for the lulz from the usual hand-waving, nit-picking and erudite commentary copy-pasted from the Wikipedia Theological Seminary. But I figured you heathens would appreciate it more.

9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Good summary of the Nativity myths... (Original Post) onager Dec 2013 OP
Holy shit! TxDemChem Dec 2013 #1
If you really want to blow their minds, there's no evidence in the bible that Jesus is god Major Nikon Dec 2013 #6
OMFNG! This is new to me. TxDemChem Dec 2013 #7
My father was a Unitarian minister Major Nikon Dec 2013 #8
The whole issue of a trinity always confused me TxDemChem Dec 2013 #9
Well, it took several hours to get through it Curmudgeoness Dec 2013 #2
Thanks for this - mr blur Dec 2013 #3
There seems to be a great deal of borrowing from defacto7 Dec 2013 #4
Glad you mentioned Eusebius... onager Dec 2013 #5

TxDemChem

(1,918 posts)
1. Holy shit!
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 02:47 PM
Dec 2013

That is the best description of the dueling nativity stories I have ever read. Very concise. Thanks for the good find.

Lol xtians would lose their minds if they read and attempt to justify this. Cognitive dissonance can be a bitch.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
6. If you really want to blow their minds, there's no evidence in the bible that Jesus is god
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 08:56 PM
Dec 2013

The only reference to the holy trinity in the bible is 1 John 5: 7-8, AKA Comma Johanneum. Most theologians agree the Comma Johanneum was inserted into the gospels (which is a sin) hundreds of years after the death of Christ. Even the Catholic church reluctantly (but officially) admits the Comma Johanneum is bullshit. The current definitive Catholic biblical translation (Nova Vulgata) in use since 1979 does not include the Comma Johanneum, nor do many modern translations of the bible. NIV, NASB, ESV, and NRSV versions of the bible all omit the Comma Johanneum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Many early Christian sects did not believe in the trinity or accept Jesus as god. The idea that Jesus was god was more of an evolutionary idea until the Council of Nicea, after which Christians who didn't accept the trinity as official doctrine were killed or banished as heretics.

Without the Comma Johanneum, there is no biblical evidence of the trinity and several biblical passages contradict the idea.

So come to find out, Jesus is not Lord.

TxDemChem

(1,918 posts)
7. OMFNG! This is new to me.
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 08:24 AM
Dec 2013

I shall research it some more and find an appropriate place for this info in my debate talking points.

Thanks!

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
8. My father was a Unitarian minister
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:24 AM
Dec 2013

He was raised as a devout Christian. He didn't learn of the Comma Johanneum myth until entering college and studying theology. At this point he realized he had been bullshitted his entire life about the trinity and from that point on he was a lifelong Unitarian. My father was a strong believer in a supreme being. However if you ever asked him what to believe, or even if to believe at all, his answer always was that is something you need to figure out on your own. He never forced his faith on me or anyone else.

Believe it or not the holy trinity isn't universally accepted even among Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses reject it outright. Mormons are actually tritheistic. Unitarians (if you can call them Christians) reject trinitarian doctrine but tolerate it just as they do all belief (and even non-belief) systems. The trinity didn't even appear as an idea until about the 2nd or 3rd century. The Roman emperor, Constantinople presided and directed the Council at Nicaea, 325 CE and there is considerable debate as to whether he was even a Christian. Christian or not he approached questions of Christian doctrine from a purely political standpoint. Trinitarianism was floated as a concept at this point but still wasn't accepted as official church doctrine. The trinity wasn't accepted as official church doctrine until the First Council of Constantinople, 381 CE. Before this point many early Christians rejected the trinity outright and many also rejected the idea that Jesus was a/the god at all. After 381 CE any Christian who rejected trinitarianism was branded heretical and routinely killed or banished if they caused too much trouble. Trinitarianism predates Christianity and may be found in many pagan belief systems. It's important to understand that as a politician, Constantinople had a vested interest in merging religious ideas and forming one common belief system. The trinity was really more of an evolutionary idea that solved a lot of political problems rather than a religious idea that was well supported by religious tomes.

Here's an excellent Unitarian white paper on the trinity from a biblical perspective. Note the Comma Johanneum isn't even mentioned as most theologians reject it and the author assumes the reader is aware of this.

http://submission.org/In_the_Beginning.html

TxDemChem

(1,918 posts)
9. The whole issue of a trinity always confused me
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 08:26 PM
Dec 2013

My AME church from childhood never accepted the doctrine. Hubby was raised a Catholic, but they only went to church on religious holidays. Then they stopped altogether.

I find this just so fascinating. I wish my dad was more like yours when I was growing up. I am going to enjoy digging into the history of Comma Johanneum and your link.

Thanks for kicking some knowledge our way!

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
2. Well, it took several hours to get through it
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:25 PM
Dec 2013

although I have to admit that I was doing laundry and cooked supper along the way. Now it's time to break out the booze and relax.

I was impressed with the article, but I do wish it was "dumbed down" for some of my religious friends. I know that they will never get past the first few paragraphs. Maybe I can just do excerpts????

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
3. Thanks for this -
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:51 PM
Dec 2013

it would be fun to see what smug and the rest make of it but there wouldn't be any surprises, I'd guess.

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
4. There seems to be a great deal of borrowing from
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 03:38 AM
Dec 2013

Josephus and well as pure fiction added to his works at later times. Eusebius Pamphili, a Roman historian (c. AD 263–339) who had access to Josephus works made statements in his Book Evangelical Preparation that Christians could benefit from medicinal fictions to enhance their deception. He is thought by some scholars to have added the "medicinal evidence" of Christ's miracles and crucification to Josephus works during the 4th century ACE, and not very skillfully either. It seems a coincidental that he was the first to discover those Jesus/Josephus passages as well. Sure Uncle Eusebi, sure.

onager

(9,356 posts)
5. Glad you mentioned Eusebius...
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:46 PM
Dec 2013

As they say on CSI, he had both motive and opportunity to change Josephus' writings. Motive because of all his quotes about lying being perfectly OK to advance Xianity. Opportunity because he was an official custodian of ancient documents.

The "Testimonium Flavinium" is an odd piece of writing, however it got there:

1. It's weirdly out of context. The Testimonium is jammed in between a very long account of Pontius Pilate sparking a riot over a water pipe.* And some gossip about the Jews in Rome visiting the (pagan) Temple of Isis.

2. The words about JC sound like they were written by an awestruck groupie and even include the words, "if he be a man." All implying JC was the son of god etc. But Flavius Josephus was a Pharisee - one of the most conservative branches of Judaism, which earned them frequent tongue-lashings from Alleged Jesus in the New Testament. If Josephus had written that Jesus was the Messiah, I don't think he could even be considered a Jew anymore. Let alone a Pharisee.

We know Josephus was a Pharisee because he said so, many times. He claimed that he had mastered ALL the branches of Judaism by a very young age, and the Pharasaic branch appealed to him the most.

OTOH, sometimes it's hard to tell WTF Josephus is up to. He often comes across like that noisy drunk in your favorite bar who was riding with a biker gang but at the same time winning the Medal of Honor in Afghanistan and investigating the truth about Area 51.

His "Autobiography" sometimes contradicts "The Jewish Wars." e.g., sometimes he was a civilian mediator between the Romans and Judeans. But at other times he was a General in the insurgent forces. What's undeniable, according to his own writings, is that he went with Rome in the end and became a sort of First Century Benedict Arnold.

*That water pipe, or aqueduct, has bugged me for years. According to some historians, the Jerusalem Temple usually ran a financial surplus and the extra money was spent on public works projects to benefit the whole community.

These projects were selected by the High Priests and submitted to the Roman governor for approval. I'm guessing a project like "Museum of the Unknown Zealot Insurgents" would be a non-starter.

In this case, the High Priests decided to extend an existing aqueduct, thereby providing clean water to more people. For some reason I've never figured out, this sparked a huge riot among the Jewish population. Clean water? Better health? The hell with that, let's riot! The whole thing sounds very Monty Pythonish. Even granted that, according to Josephus, by this time the local Jews were rioting at the drop of a halibut.

Some Xian websites claim that Pontius Pilate was embezzling Temple money and that's what caused the riot. But since Xians blame everything on Pilate except the Jerusalem Alien Invasion of 29 CE, this is probably just one more unfounded allegation.

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