Pope's recent pr stunt (meeting with victims of sexual abuse) reminds me of Bush's Snowflake babies

[beam me up scottie]

Both claim to care about children yet did nothing to help them.

Another day another photo op.

[Warpy]

1. Yes, it's symbolism for the symbolic thinkers.

I'll believe he's serious when it stops and all the rapists in the church are turned over to civil law.

[beam me up scottie]

2. Until the Church stops blocking access to education and birth control

they doom millions of women and children to a lifetime of poverty.

That is child abuse.

[theHandpuppet]

7. +100

You said it!!!

[skepticscott]

8. Yes, all of the pope's diatribes against poverty

are phony and empty, as long as the church imposes conditions that perpetuate it.

No matter how much the apologists here tout the wonderfulness of his soup kitchens.

[theHandpuppet]

9. Every time I hear that blather about poverty...

I'm reminded of a post I made to GD some time ago:

In order to praise Francis for his speeches against poverty and income inequality one must also be able to ignore or deny that the church's very own policies contribute to the abysmal state of the world's poor, some 70% of whom are women and children. Here's one of the articles that puts it best....

http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/contraception-philippines-and-pope-francis-passion-poor
"Pope Francis has been highly touted for his criticism of institutional evils that create poverty. But there is something deeply troubling about a church leadership that rails against poverty and institutional sin while using its resources to defeat civil laws aimed at alleviating the suffering of the poorest.
"If the pope and his brother bishops are to be fully honest about roots of poverty, they must take an honest look at the ways in which the policies and agenda of their institutional church contribute to inadequate medical care for mothers, the starvation of families, the swelling of the slum population, the spread of HIV/AIDS, and environmental degradation.
"I realize Pope Francis cannot change the contraception teaching overnight, but he could call the bishops of the Philippines to cease this relentless, well-funded campaign. The institutional church now stands as the lone impediment between poor Philippine mothers and adequate maternal health care. The hierarchy's lobbying has kept mothers and fathers from raising families they can afford, families small enough to allow children to be fed and educated...."

[trotsky]

10. Yes - this:

"I realize Pope Francis cannot change the contraception teaching overnight, but he could call the bishops of the Philippines to cease this relentless, well-funded campaign."

Oh the shit we get on here for criticizing Pope Frank - "Stupid atheists, he can't change church doctrine overnight!" Well technically he can, but whatever. He COULD do something as simple as that. He definitely COULD pull the church back from its political interference in the governments of just about every country. But he doesn't. And for pointing that out, we get more shit than the guy who opposes reproductive choice (for ALL women, not just Catholics) and marriage equality (for ALL people, not just Catholics).

[theHandpuppet]

11. Exactly.

Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Another example -- if he can recall a bishop for being a little too obvious about remodeling his house, why can't he recall some bishops and archbishops of Uganda and Nigeria for publicly supporting legislation that has led to the torture and imprisonment of GLBTs? No? That's asking a little too much? How about giving Archbishop Cordileone a call and tell him his ass doesn't belong in an anti-gay hate parade. No again? Well here's an idea... just ignore all that and put out a few more strident statements condemning gay marriage and adoption, but not before you've put out a new press release with photos of you blessing a parrot, driving an old car, washing some feet, etc. That does it every time.

And you can be sure there will be plenty of folks here who will lap it up.

[trotsky]

12. Argh, hadn't even though about that.

Clearly a message is being sent - it's just that too few of us are able to understand it. And too many are falling for the PR.

Like I've mentioned several times, it feels just like the Iraq war "debate." A tiny minority of us understand what's really going on, and we're bashed for it.

[AlbertCat]

47. put out a new press release with photos of you blessing a parrot, driving an old car, washing some f

"put out a new press release with photos of you blessing a parrot, driving an old car, washing some feet, etc. That does it every time."


If they still taught theatre in school..... people would be more equipped to recognize BAD theatre when they see it. (I mean.... this applies to political campaigns too...and much else) And make it easier to distinguish theatre from reality.

[Jeff Murdoch]

46. Who do you think he is?

The Pope?......oh yeah

[Curmudgeoness]

3. Well, he did apologize to them.

What more can you expect????

I still haven't heard of a real solution, like prosecuting the abusers and excommunicating them (which should be a big deal if you give a shit, and presumably priests do).

[beam me up scottie]

4. And he's SUCH a kindly old gentleman...

Fawning and pewling over misogynists is repulsive and anti-liberal.

[progressoid]

13. Instead of prosecuting them, he could have them exorcized!

They have 250 Exorcists. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/02/vatican-recognises-exorcists

[theHandpuppet]

17. Hmmm... do they perform these exorcisms for free?

Or are gratuities gladly accepted?

[Curmudgeoness]

41. LOL, is anything free?

I don't think that they do anything for nothing. Even a mass (and they have a lot of masses so I don't see the problem) for the soul of a dearly departed has to be paid for. I never knew that until my father died, and some devout family members had a mass said for him. I'm sure it did no good, since he never went to church as an adult, was an atheist, and refused a priest up to the last days of his life. But they paid for one anyways.

[Curmudgeoness]

42. I am sure that will do a lot for child abusers.

It will cure them, I just know it will.

And if that is all it takes, they should have done it years ago, huh?

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Another amazing PR op by the magical super-mammal.

Is there anything he can't make sound better?

[beam me up scottie]

6. He plays to his audience.

Not exactly a tough crowd, even here.

[theHandpuppet]

14. I wonder...

Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 11:44 AM - Edit history (2)

How folks would react to threads about any other religious/political leader who...
1. opposed all manner of contraception and reproductive choice
2. opposed equal rights for women
3. opposed gay marriage and adoption
4. promoted discrimination
5. had a questionable history of involvement or at least cooperation with the Argentinian junta
6. rebuffed a UN inquiry into the sex abuse of children...

... and was promoted on DU?

Believe me, as a host I got a firsthand lesson on how speaking up about this issue will get you nowhere. I've already been lectured on how any criticism of the Pope is equivalent to criticizing the church and all Catholics, everywhere. I'll leave it at that lest this post be considering "whining" and garner an alert.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Exactly.

They have to internalize any criticism of the pope/church as criticism of the individuals themselves that belong to the church.

It's a defense mechanism.

[theHandpuppet]

19. In my dictionary...

... that's defined as a cult mentality. But that's just me.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. I don't think it's unfair to say it is 'indistinguishable from'.

[theHandpuppet]

25. That would be an interesting discussion all its own

What would folks consider the dividing line between a religious following and a cult? Where do they differ and where do they overlap?

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Seems like a gut feeling/judgment call.

I am aware of no principle that would allow me to reliably distinguish.
Which, ought to be troubling to some people.

[skepticscott]

16. It has been pointed out many times

to the gang of papal suck ups in Religion that if the pope posted his publicly expressed views here on DU, he'd be out the door quicker than you can say Ave Maria.

No response so far but more apologetics, and defense of a man who is rabidly anti-gay, anti-abortion, and anti-birth control. On a progressive web site.

[theHandpuppet]

18. Oh, it doesn't even stop there

Against in-vitro fertilization, surrogacy, artificial insemination, yadda yadda. IOW, couples who cannot conceive or need medical help with bringing forth a child are shit outta luck. The issue of "reproductive choice" doesn't apply just to those trying to prevent pregnancy but even to those desperate for a child. Many folks seem to forget that choice isn't just about prevention.

Edited to add: this is just another reason folks should be alarmed at the Church's takeover of hospitals. Anti-choicers think this is just about abortion. On the contrary, the implications are much more far-reaching than they realize.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. I'm not sure they actually oppose artificial insemination.

Supposedly they don't mind about IVF either, IF all fertilized eggs are implanted.

Of course, for those of us who have been through IVF, we know they pull as many eggs as they can harvest, and fertilize them all, and then select as many as the prospective mother seeks to implant, that have the highest quality of the batch (dividing well on a timeline, shell quality, etc.) and only implant those.

Restricting it to 1 egg in 1 egg out to match their nonsense, would increase cost and failure rate for people trying to have a kid.

[theHandpuppet]

23. Not so, I'm afraid

The church does not approve of IVF or even the adoption of the extra frozen embyros, sometimes called "snowflake babies". "Artificial insemination" is also out unless the latter is accomplished by means of what they call "gamete intrafallopian tube transfer" between married heterosexual couples.

http://www.diocesephoenix.org/invitro-fertilization.php
http://americanpregnancy.org/infertility/gift.html

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Ha ha WOW I did not know that.

That's uh. Wow.
Fucked up right there.

I'm convinced there must be a secret 11th commandment; thou shalt not jerk off.

[theHandpuppet]

33. And the shares for turkey basters plummets!

Not to make light of the situation but its all so ridiculous. Bottom line, it's all about controlling women's bodies.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Not just women, in this case.

They explicitly called out what I had to do, in the Dr.'s office several times.

Who the fuck are they to presume to tell me what is 'moral' in this case? They lobby on this shit. They try to impose their bullshit via the legislature on ME, not just the members of their church.

If they could just keep it to themselves, then they'd be just a amusing curio to me. THIS is why I actively fight. They have no right. No justification. Their imaginary friend and his bronze age sun-addled goat herder morality can go fuck themselves. Seriously. What unmitigated bullshit.

[theHandpuppet]

37. Same here

I really, really don't care what they do in their bedrooms or how. I just don't. What I do care about is this obsession to control everyone's else's lives based on their religious beliefs, no matter what that religion might be. I refuse to live in a theocracy.

[skepticscott]

22. And of course, we haven't even mentioned

their despicable interference with right-to-die legislation.

[theHandpuppet]

24. Yes, that's been a hot topic in Europe

And quite a war between religion and those who support right-to-die legislation.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Finally legal in 3 states in the US.

Glad I live in one of them. Sucks for practically everyone else though.

[theHandpuppet]

31. Which states are those?

I hope they are states my wife and I are considering for our retirement!

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Oregon, Washington, and Vermont.

[theHandpuppet]

35. Yeah! My wife will be thrilled.

Those three are among the ones we've discussed. We'd love to live in Vermont but good grief, we started taking a look at real estate prices and they are outrageous!

Of course, we live in WV -- where we have a 2500 sq ft, historic brick home with 3 large bedrooms, full attic and basement, a separate living area with another kitchen, bedroom and lvg room, multiple baths, 3 garages, a garden including fruit trees, etc. For $80,000. I don't suppose they have those in Vermont.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Washington state is awesome.

Some areas can be pricey, but this place is just amazing. I wouldn't choose to live anywhere else in the country, politically, or geographically.

[theHandpuppet]

38. That would be my wife's first choice.

The only drawback would be that it's so far away from my family and I would worry about my wife being so far away from a support system should anything happen to me. She has no immediate family and the closest relatives are her cousins in Mexico City.

I've heard the eastern part of Washington state is very red. Are there any reasonably priced areas in the western part of the state?

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Definitely. Everything west of Lake Sammamish in King County is reactor blue.

I'm east of that, but west of the mountains. So I live in a sorta pink area. Not so much red. East of the mountains is blood red.

The closer you are to the heart of seattle/Bellevue, the higher the cost of the homes, but outside that area most things are very reasonable.

[theHandpuppet]

40. Thanks much for the tips!

Will definitely explore these possibilities.

[trotsky]

26. Careful now.

If a certain poster sees you ragging on the Catholic church for taking over hospitals, she'll accuse you of promoting genocide on the poor.

[theHandpuppet]

29. Well they can accuse

And I can just keep asking them how they feel about this:
http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/contraception-philippines-and-pope-francis-passion-poor

[skepticscott]

43. That only works with people

who don't have their fingers permanently in their ears, and who haven't decided that anyone who doesn't bow and scrape when they disagree with her can't be listened to.

[theHandpuppet]

44. Just keep providing folks with the evidence

At some point denying all the evidence just makes the detractors look ridiculous. Of, course, I'm not sure even that would work with the blindly devout. But at least it's a good way to circulate the information for others who might suspect the truth, even in secret.

For instance, here's an interesting read on how the lack of reproduction rights affects women, especially poor women, in developing countries -- the UN report.
http://www.unmillenniumproject.org/documents/Gender-chapters4-6.pdf

There are mountains of studies such as these. Every time you get confronted with an illogical argument, just post another link. No further comments necessary. Someone will read it, even if it's a lurker.

[skepticscott]

45. Yes, there's a core of people here

who will never change their minds about anything and, sadly, wouldn't have the honesty to admit it even if they did. They're sure that as long as an argument doesn't convince them or the others in their little religionista tribe to change their minds, it won't convince anyone. Best thing to do is make sure that the sensible and rational people reading never take such folks seriously.