Christopher Hitchens versus Feminism

[Duppers]

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Please give your opinion on this vid.

It's a point of discussion in one of my FB atheist forums. I would give more info but I don't want to bias your opinions.

Thanks!






Btw, I love Hitch and am very sad that he's gone but I don't 'worship' him to the extent some atheists do.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Hitchens was very charismatic, and fun, but I would never look to him for moral guidance.

I think he was backwards on the subjects of women and national defense.

I wouldn't bother defending him, unless I thought the claim against him was really outrageous.

[Taverner]

19. Yep

I wouldn't look to him as a health icon either

[ZombieHorde]

20. Oh, so that is my problem.

I knew I was doing something wrong.

[rrneck]

2. He does a fine job of pullung her chain

but his underlying point is valid. In our species care for children has demanded tremendous resources from women. Men have taken up the slack by providing more for the family. Everything may be different since the seventies but that means nothing in evolutionary terms. Men are hardwired to defend, women to nurture.

He states repeatly that Ms. Hitchens can work if she wants, but she doesn't have to. If there are no children and there is household help that sounds like a reasonable position on his part. He'd be a real jerk if he demanded she work whether she wanted to or not.

He does a fine job of pulling the interviewers chain with the remark about "the gentler sex" and "innate skill with children" which is what is probably attracting all the attention. He saw the rhetorical bind that line of questioning created and and outflanked her.

The Guy didn't sell a zillion books for nothin'.

[Warpy]

3. I think the problem is the male bias that women who don't

draw a paycheck aren't working. Perhaps Hitch's wife (wives?) had a full complement of maid, nanny, cook, and groundskeepers, but she still had to do the work of supervising them and making sure the place ran correctly while acting as social secretary and event planner, none of which he'd ever manage to understand was work.

Gentler sex? More like "natural slave."

[rrneck]

4. If their lifestyle is such that

an "event planner" is required, they'd have a personal assistant. Let's not confuse the travails of lifestyle management by the 1% with the actual very demanding work done by women in the home.

[Warpy]

5. He was hardly part of the 1%

Trust me, she was planning the literary soirees.

[rrneck]

7. What's your point?

Are you suggesting there be a time clock installed so Ms. Hitchens could get a check from Chris?

On edit: Cristopher Hitchens was worth two million dollars. I cannot verify the veracity of the website, but a best selling author, columnist and lecturer would easily be worth that.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/authors/christopher-hitchens-net-worth/

Does that put him in the 1%? Nope. You have to be worth about ten million to do that. Was Ms. Hitchens required to aid him in his career? He said she didn't have to work, so unless he was lying she and she actually was aiding him in his career, she was doing so out of her own volition. Either way, I doubt she would have starved.

Marriage is a collaborative effort. In the case of the Hitchenses collaboration was probably easier than most because they had more money than most people. If the man said she didn't have to work, I'll believe him until I see further evidence.

Hitchens made all that money as a contrarian polemicist, which is to say a professional stirrer of shit. The interviewer got out maneuvered, which is no shame since Hitchens made all that money doing exactly that. It sells books because outraged indignation pays. There is no bad press, especially if you argue for a living.

[Warpy]

8. The problem with entitlement

is that the entitled rarely recognize that it is there.

Your post rather proved that point.

[rrneck]

10. How so? nt

[Duppers]

11. You've no idea that Warpy

Last edited Tue Feb 14, 2012, 06:23 AM - Edit history (1)

just "out maneuvered" you. LOL!


You've a somewhat stereotypical blindside.


But you should *hate* *stereotyping*, uh?!!

[rrneck]

14. How so? nt

[rrneck]

15. Then explain it. She seems unable or unwilling. nt

[PassingFair]

6. He didn't think women could be funny, either.

BTW, I don't know ANY atheists who "worship" Hitchens.

I enjoyed his debate skills, I also enjoyed seeing him demolished
by George Galloway during the Iraq war.

He had HUGE blind spots, but he argued what HE saw as the truth.

Sometimes he was flat-out wrong. Just like the interviewer says.

[Duppers]

12. I'll have to find that debate with Galloway on youtube

Thanks, PF! And I agree with you!


I do know a few atheists who cling to every word Hitch spoke as if he was an ultimate authority on ALL important subjects!


(Btw, I used the term "worship" as defined: "adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle.&quot

[AlbertCat]

22. do know a few atheists who cling to every word Hitch spoke as if he was an ultimate authority

I don't believe you.

By a "few" do you mean one? Two? teenagers?

[iris27]

17. Yeah, that "women can't be funny" thing was my first introduction to his sexism.

Arguing from stereotypes, then dismissing any evidence to the contrary as individual exception, and holding that the stereotype is still valid, is some damned lazy argumentation.

[PassingFair]

18. I think he really felt that way.

Something was obviously broken in his childhood.

I don't think he bonded with his mother.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. Let me start by saying that I am a woman.

I was put off at first by his comments about women being the ones to care for kids and men as the ones who go out and provide for them instead of nuturing. I know a number of men who are so smitten by their babies, and who love to be around them and pamper and cater to them---so this is a broad brush comment.

After that, though, I agree with him. I think that it is wonderful that a man believes in giving a woman the choice to work or not. Women all have different priorities, and I am turned off when a man insists that his wife works as much as when a man insists that she does not work. In fact, by the end of this clip, I was more offended by the interviewer.

[Duppers]

13. Thanks!

I think I was put off by his glib snugness, although seemingly polite but condescending as it was. I usually adore his glib snugness when it's used on theists!

You don't think he had an assuming attitude that women cannot handle the same responsibilities that men can? And isn't that sexist?

This is one of those times that it's easy to see-saw on the fence.

[Curmudgeoness]

16. You are right, he did have an attitude.

And at first, I was thinking that he sounded like he thought women should be "barefoot and pregnant" and staying in the home. But the further it went, the more I thought is was less sexist and more advocating for choice. And although I have never been the kind of woman who wanted to keep house and raise children, I do realize that there are some women who revel in that job. And they have every right to do it without feeling shame. I think by the end of this clip, I saw him advocating for this.

On the other hand, the interviewer's disbelief that women should be able to be homemakers (or whatever you want to call it) turned me off. I think it is fantastic that a woman can follow her own path, and the interviewer seemed to think that all women should be in careers----just as offensive as the attitude that no women should.

I watched this clip a second time, and I still don't see him insinuating that women can't handle it. I think it is just his smug demeanor that makes it look that way.

Definitely a complex man.

[cynatnite]

21. I think it was Hitchens being Hitchens..

It seemed like he back-pedaled a bit when he was saying no woman of mine would be going to work. Then he was advocating choice.

What got me more than anything was when he said, "there's a reason why they are the gentle sex". I didn't know if he was being serious or jerking her chain because of how she was reacting.

He does like the outrageous. This was the same guy who supported the invasion of Iraq, too.