Jesus is NOT pretty good as a moral compass.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

I got into it with someone who said Jesus was a pretty good moral compass. I pointed out the cruelty in Jesus' words that xtians ignore.

I told them Jesus was a pretty awful moral guide. They get mad when I point out that their Jesus is a very cruel and vengeful guy. That's because their bible is a mixmaster of stuff put together to help Constantine solidify his empire, and to oppress women and slaves.

In DU2 I had long posts of bible verses of cruelty from Skeptic's Annotated Bible removed.

They can't stand it when you point out their contradictions!!!

[Curmudgeoness]

1. Give a couple of examples of Jesus being cruel?

Although I am an atheist, I do not think that Jesus's teachings were cruel. In fact, much of what he preached agrees with my philosophy on how to live your life. Except for the virgin birth/son of god bullshit, I don't see it.

[BiggJawn]

2. Cursing the Fig tree.

For having the gawd-dam audacity to not be in fruit out of season when Jeebus wanted a Fig.

And that's one of the mild ones.

[uriel1972]

3. The whole thought crime business for a start

the 'if you think it, you have already sinned.' doctrine.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

4. They are all at Skeptic's Annotated Bible.

160 entries under Cruelty & Violence in the New Testament.

162 under Intolerance in the New Testament.

260 under Absurdity in the New Testament.

323 under Injustice in the New Testament.

============
One Small Part, the Injustice Section, from only one Chapter, Matthew:

While insulting the Pharisees and Sadducees, John the Baptist calls an entire generation a "generation of vipers." 3: 7

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Don't defend yourself in court. 5:40

"If ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Fair is fair! 6:15

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"My servant lieth at home sick."
Here was the perfect opportunity for Jesus to condemn slavery. All he'd have to do is say, "OK, I'll heal him. But then you must set your slave free, because slavery is an abomination to God." 8:5-9

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Jesus heals a paralytic man by forgiving his sins. (Paralysis is caused by sinful behavior.) 9:2-6

Jesus tells his disciples to keep away from the Gentiles and Samaritans, and go only to the Israelites. 10:5-6

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

"Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." 10:33

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much. We have to make sure that we always love him (who we don't even know existed) more than our family. 10:37

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

"Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." 12:36

When Jesus' mother and brothers want to see him, Jesus rudely asks, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" So much for Jesus' family values. 12:47-49

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, "lest ... they ... should understand ... and should be converted, and I should heal them." 13:10-15

"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." Isn't this from the Republican Party platform? 13:12

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20: 9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus refuses to heal the Canaanite woman's possessed daughter, saying "it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to the dogs." 15:22-26

"Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
If you want to stay alive, you must lose your life (kill yourself?) for Jesus' sake. 16:25

Jesus condemns the whole world, saying "Woe unto the world because of offenses." 18 : 7

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. 18:25

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

Rich people don't go to heaven. For as Jesus says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 19:23

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. 19:29

The parable of the unfair, lying employer
The kingdom of heaven is like a business that hires workers, paying each the same wage (one penny). Some work 12 hours for the penny; others 9, 6, or 3 hours; and others for only one hour. If one of the 12-hour workers complains about it, his boss says, "Hey, didn't you agree to work all day for a penny? What are you complaining about? From this parable, David Barton (and the Republicans) claim that Jesus was against the minimum wage.
But the employer didn't say he'd pay each of the workers a penny; he said he'd pay them "whatsoever is right" (vv.4,7). Is it right for one employee to be paid twelve times as much as another when both are doing the same type of work? 20:1-15

"Jesus ... touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight." 20:34

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

Jesus condemns the Jews for being "the children of them which killed the prophets." 23:31

Jesus blames his the Jews (who were then living) for "all the righteous blood" from Abel to Zecharias. 23:35

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

"Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents." 25:27

Jesus will give to those who already have and take from those who have nothing. He must've been a Republican. 25:29

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Ointment for Jesus' head is more important than helping the poor. 25:6-11

"His blood be on us, and on our children." This verse blames the Jews for the death of Jesus and has been used to justify their persecution for twenty centuries. 27:25
.

[Curmudgeoness]

11. Obviously, I have to re-read the New Testament.

Maybe I am as silly as the believers who read into it just what they want to see.

I do not remember seeing most of these things in the same way as it is described here, but I will take some time to read the Skeptics' Annotated Bible as well as the New Testament.

Thanks for the information. It has been too long since I looked at the Bible at all, and I do try to be informed. This may be fun, and insightful.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. I know more about their bible than they do, unfortunately.

[intaglio]

20. This wailing and gnashing of teeth

Will teeth be provided?

/thanks to Dave Allen, Irish comedian.

[_ed_]

19. Luke 19:27

Charming stuff.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. Not applicable.

I read that verse, and it was rather shocking, to be sure. So I read the whole chapter, and this is not Jesus talking about people who do not believe in him----it is the king/ruler in his parable talking about the people who would rebel against him.

I admit that I do not get the point of this parable. But that one line is not what it appears if you read it alone.

[_ed_]

23. Not my interpretation of the passage

But, that's the point, eh? This book is so poorly written that you can read it any way you like.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

5. This is the thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002300098

They don't like it when I point out the contradictions and cruelty in their Bible that they conveniently ignore.

I had the gall to mention that Buddha had a consistent and excellent philosophy, and that he never said to smite your enemies or kill your disobedient son, and that students of Buddhist scriptures did not have to ignore any parts of it, unlike the bible.



And they try to argue that they don't believe in original sin yet they are christians. I point out that original sin is a horrible doctrine that destroys people, and yet they deny it. I also point out that since original sin is a lie, that substitutionary atonement is an unnecessary solution for an imaginary problem. They just don't like my laying out of the facts!!

[greyl]

6. Buddhism is also a salvationist religion.

Post-Christian Buddhism hobbyists don't care to entertain that notion.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. No it isn't. Buddha is not a god and he does not save anyone.

Where did you get that idea???

[greyl]

13. It surely is. Having a "God" is not a requirement of salvationist religion.

(In any case, according to religious myth, Bible passages, and most Christians you'd care to ask, Jesus was also not a god.)

Broadly, salvationist religions share a core belief system placing flawed, unenlightened, sinning humans in a flawed, illusory, deceptive physical world(reality, iow), in one fashion or another. But that's OK, because one may be released from this painful, temporal existence full of sacrifice and suffering, and travel beyond to the world that really counts, that matters above all worldy concerns, by surrendering to a handy set of Revealed Truths and dogmatic practices.

I take it you choose to disregard some Buddhist beliefs (Mahayana Buddhism in particular) and hang on to others. That sounds familiar. Can you tell me which Buddhist text or authority you use so we can both refer to it during this leisurely paced discussion? I'd rather not have the "no true Scotsman" thing brought up after this mention.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

15. "revealed truths and dogmatic practices"???

"Revealed truths" implies that A)a man hears a voice and thinks it's god;B) writes it down and declares himself a prophet; C) said writings are considered to be a holy scripture of a religion.
Example of prophet: Mohammed. Example of writings: The Quran.

Buddha did none of those things. He never said he heard stuff from god. He did not say he was holy or a messenger of god. His writings were based on what he taught. His teachings were derived from his enlightenment. He has never been considered a god or worshiped as one. He did not say he was a god. He said "I am awake."

"dogmatic practices"? You baffled me on that one. I see nothing dogmatic in Buddhism. All I see is instructions on what to do to have a good life, like the Eight Fold Path.

"handy set"?? It's difficult reading for me.

Why do you say I do not like Mahayana Buddhism in particular? I used to go to a Mahayana temple.

[greyl]

16. Can you tell me which Buddhist text or authority you use so we can both refer to it? nt

[greyl]

18. (should I pose an easier question?) nt

[intaglio]

21. There are a lot of flaws in your arguments

Firstly check the catechisms and the professions of faith, Jesus is God, he is 100% god and 100% man; denying the divinity of Christ is a heresy in all branches of Christianity. The fact this 200% Jesus is nonsense does not stop the faithful.

Next is the problem of sin. Sin in the Abrahamic faiths is inherent in every human, indeed the hardcore would say that the nature of all that lives is sinful. Jesus was supposed to come down and be sacrificed as a blood offering to Himself for the remission of that "original" sin for humans but humans are still tainted with that sin until they accept God's sacrifice of Himself to Himself and then continue a) being sinless or (b) accepting Jesus or (c) confessing their sin. In salvationist religion the salvation has already happened but it is conditional.

Lastly Buddhism, for all it's schools (and the variants within those schools), says that we are tainted by our physicality but that our release from that physicality is in our own hands not in the hands of any deity. The profound understanding of the Buddhists is that deities came to honour the soul that escaped the wheel of life, the Buddha, for the gods themselves are bound to that wheel. Nirvana is not "heaven" it is the "blowing out" of fleshly flaws and liberation from Samsara. In Buddhism there is no "salvation" only a release that humans have to find for themselves, possibly with help from other humans.

Buddhism despite its flaws and the (majority) assumption that a soul can survive death possibly by transmigrating, is at least philosophically coherent and has some attractive elements.

[HopeHoops]

7. He also didn't use Charmin toilet paper! The HEATHEN!

[awoke_in_2003]

9. yep, he just keeps squeezing it...

Mr Whipple does NOT approve.

[HopeHoops]

10. "Yo, hippie. Quit squeezin' my Charmin, man."

"I call mine Ralph."

[dimbear]

14. One of my faves is the Parable of the Faithless Steward. Bringing it down to modern terms,

the guy worked in Accounts Receivable, and found out he was getting fired. He called all the clients and told them he would cancel out the account balance for half coming back to him under the table.

OK. Good story, right? Must to avoid, right? Uh uh. Jesus recommends this.

There's a special term for the parables that don't chime in with morality as we know it. 'Difficult parables.' Maybe a better term would be evil parables.

Matthew 24:45 ff.

[darkstar3]

17. kick