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Where the hell do the anti-GMO hysterics keep getting this? (Original Post) Archae Feb 2015 OP
Scenario... immoderate Feb 2015 #1
Try again. Archae Feb 2015 #2
Is Mike Adams someone I should know? immoderate Feb 2015 #3
I think, you don't understand the situation. DetlefK Feb 2015 #4
Scientists don't deal in "proof." -- Next! immoderate Feb 2015 #5
Do you have evidence that supports your theory to a Likelihood of at least 90%? DetlefK Feb 2015 #6
We are the lab rats. GMO safety is a matter of faith. immoderate Feb 2015 #7
Scientists don't deal in faith either. Next! DetlefK Feb 2015 #8
My evidence of there being no long term studies showing GMO safety is -- there are none. immoderate Feb 2015 #9
The studies you cite have problems NickB79 Feb 2015 #11
Yep. There are problems. immoderate Feb 2015 #12
Somebody still believes in Seralini? Fred Friendlier Feb 2015 #14
I still haven't got an answer. Archae Feb 2015 #10
The Journal of Organic Systems unrepentant progress Feb 2015 #13
Data Dredging Fred Friendlier Feb 2015 #15
 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
1. Scenario...
Tue Feb 10, 2015, 04:57 PM
Feb 2015

GMO crops have developed a following of Roundup resistant pests. So they bathe the crops in the stuff. It's a poison. Suppress the immune system -- and what happens?

Also note that effects of ingesting GMO foods are widely suspect in independent studies. Industry studies, none of which went for more than 90 days, are the only ones considered by agencies. For a good, but more developed parallel, see fracking.

--imm


Archae

(46,328 posts)
2. Try again.
Tue Feb 10, 2015, 06:30 PM
Feb 2015

And this time actually answer my question, not the usual hysterics from anti-GMO ditwits like Mike Adams.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
3. Is Mike Adams someone I should know?
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 12:26 AM
Feb 2015

And you can feel free to refute anything I said, -- if you can.

--imm

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
4. I think, you don't understand the situation.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 06:08 AM
Feb 2015

He doesn't have to refute anything. You say it, you prove it.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
6. Do you have evidence that supports your theory to a Likelihood of at least 90%?
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 12:21 PM
Feb 2015

Never mess with a wise-ass.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
7. We are the lab rats. GMO safety is a matter of faith.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 12:38 PM
Feb 2015

I can show you similar claims about the safety of fracking and CO2 proliferation. Is your rule, "If immoderate can't prove it's dangerous, then it must be safe?" I have some Florida coastline for you, -- cheap.

My point is there are no long term studies that show safety. The independent studies that show problems are quickly challenged by apologists, from think tanks. Where have we seen that before?

--imm

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
8. Scientists don't deal in faith either. Next!
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 12:55 PM
Feb 2015

I'm starting to notice something peculiar about DU: You can spot conspiracy-theorists by their refusal to provide sources for their claims. In other news, someone heard on the wires that people with US-army uniforms are fighting in Ukraine.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
9. My evidence of there being no long term studies showing GMO safety is -- there are none.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 02:33 PM
Feb 2015

Unless you can find one.

Off hand, I can cite a few studies that raise suspicions:
http://gmojudycarman.org/new-study-shows-that-animals-are-seriously-harmed-by-gm-feed/
http://www.enveurope.com/content/26/1/14
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2898%2905860-7/abstract

These studies raise questions that are, so far, only addressed by industry supported think tanks, and their paid apologists. (They teach the controversy, dispute fine points of methodology, and avoid the main issues. Tobacco lawyers.)

I have been accused of being a conspiracy-theorist frequently, -- by science deniers who are "skeptics" about global warming, and pollution from fracking. Are you one of those "skeptics" who rely on corporate dogma?

Where are the long term studies that indicate GMO safety? Beuhler??

--imm

NickB79

(19,246 posts)
11. The studies you cite have problems
Sun Feb 15, 2015, 04:19 PM
Feb 2015

The first one used pigs supposedly fed identical diets, only one being GM and the other non-GM feed, but in the comments:

You say in your paper “Mycotoxin analyses (Midwest Laboratories Inc, Omaha, Nebraska, US) showed 2.08 ppb total aflatoxins and 3.0 ppm total fumonisins in a pooled sample of the GM feed and no aflatoxins and 1.2 ppm total fumonisins in a pooled sample of the non-GM feed. No other mycotoxins were detected. These levels are well below the USA and EU limits for mycotoxins in pig feed. In addition, according to common industry practice, a mycotoxin binding agent (200 mesh bentonite clay) was added to the diets of young pigs (Table 1).”

Yet, aflatoxins are poisons caused by mold. This study fed GE corn contaminated with aflatoxins to the GE-fed hogs. The non-GE-fed hogs didn’t have aflatoxins in their feed. Also, the GE-fed hogs had over double the amount of fumonisins than the non-GE-fed hogs. Fumonisins are another toxin, caused by fungi.

So they were not fed identical diets.


Your second link was to an article later retracted: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-seralini-gmo-study-retraction-and-response-to-critics/

Your third link also has potential shortcomings: http://gmopundit2.blogspot.com/2005/11/rats-fed-bad-diets-have-lots-of.html

Stanley Ewen and Arpad Pusztai report that, when fed to rats, GM potatoes containing the GNA lectin have proliferative and antiproliferative effects on the gut. They suggest that several of these effects are due to alterationsin the composition of the transgenic potatoes, rather than to the newly expressed gene product. However data on the composition of the different diets are not reported in the letter. Pusztai has released some of these details on the internet (http://www.rri.sari.ac.uk/gmo/ajp.htm ). These details indicate that the content of starch, glucose polymers, lectin[GNA], and trypsin and chymotrypsininhibitors in GM potatoes differed from that of the parental line.
Unfortunately, these differences have notbeen examined further by analysis of anextended range of lines, for evidence on whether these differences are attributable to the genetic modification or to natural variations.

Another shortcoming of the study is that the diets were protein deficient; they contained only 6% protein by weight. There is convincing evidence that short-term protein stress and starvation impair the growth rate, development, hepatic metabolism, and immune function of rats. Ewen and Pusztai say that the significant differences between diet groups invariables such as mucosalthickness or crypt length are evidence of the biological effects of the GM foods.

Such a claim is easy to make but difficult to prove, because no consistent patterns of changes were observed in the study.

Ingestion of potatoes may be associated with several adaptive changes in the gut because of the low digestibility of raw or partly refined potato starch. In rats caecal hypertrophy is a common response to short-term feeding of various poorly digestible carbohydrates, such as raw potatostarch. A physiological response of this nature is probably of little toxicological significance. Dose -response studies would
have helped in the assessment of consistency of response.
 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
12. Yep. There are problems.
Sun Feb 15, 2015, 07:11 PM
Feb 2015

We can surely agree that more studies are needed, and the questions are not answered.

The"protein" objections in Pusztai's experiments ignore that the control groups were not undernourished.

--imm

 

Fred Friendlier

(81 posts)
14. Somebody still believes in Seralini?
Mon Feb 23, 2015, 01:26 PM
Feb 2015

That is like believing in witchcraft, like using eye of newt to ward off syphilis.

When you look beyond the self serving hype at the actual data, Seralini showed that statistical analysis works and that there is no long term harm from feeding both GMO seeds and Roundup tainted water to rats.

The anti science people show an otherwise admirable persistence, but the shame is they refuse to put their talents to good use on a worth while project.

And I have to say that as toxic as the antic science crowd is over at the Daily Kos they at least have given up on the forlorn hope that the GMO foods are directly toxic and have fallen back on claims that they are somehow indirectly connected to some kind of harm. Maybe. So we should order the Egyptian wing of the Springfield Museum burned as a precaution.

13. The Journal of Organic Systems
Wed Feb 18, 2015, 12:52 AM
Feb 2015

And it's 22 diseases.
http://www.organic-systems.org/journal/92/JOS_Volume-9_Number-2_Nov_2014-Swanson-et-al.pdf

But wait! It's the fertilizer glyphosphate that's supposedly doing the damage, and increased glyphosphate use correlates with increased use of GM crops, therefore GM crops are killers! It makes perfect sense.

A -> B
A ^ C
QED: C -> B

 

Fred Friendlier

(81 posts)
15. Data Dredging
Mon Feb 23, 2015, 01:39 PM
Feb 2015

These guys are exactly like Seneff, with her over wrought claims Roundup causes Parkinson's Disease and that half our children will be autistic by 2050.

It would be useful for them to run an actual analysis on their data and estimate how many spurious correlations they are likely to pull out of the muck under the conditions they use.

In Seralini's original paper, he measures a metric feltchton of parameters and fishes out 40 that he claims are significant at the (p < 0.05) level. Setting aside the fact that this criterion is known to be pretty sloppy, that leaves him with an expectation of 25 +/- 7 spurious results. He builds his entire pyramid of global death on a foundation of about 15 actual results (and plausibly as few as 8) in a context where he doesn't know which 15 of those 40 numbers are real and which 25 are noise and mean nothing.

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