I do not understand some of the people who support Bernie Sanders..

[samrock]

I will vote for whom ever is nominated by the Democratic party, BUT what makes people think that single payer health reform or legislation to break up the mega banks will ever pass in congress.. in 2009-2010 we controlled the house and for a short time ( ~ 9 months I believe) had a 60 vote block in the senate and ACA was the best we could get passed as well as Dode/Frank.. Even if Bernie gets in the most we could hope for would be narrow control of the senate ( so republicans could filibuster anything they dislike). We have almost no chance at the house due to all the gerrymandering.. You are setting yourself up for huge disappointment..

[Dretownblues]

1. Just stop, this is becoming old fast

you want everything to stay the same then feel free to vote for Clinton, Those of us who are voting for Sanders would like think to be better then they are.

[Autumn]

21. Maybe it's performance art. This is like the 4th OP like this I have seen tonight

[NRaleighLiberal]

54. the meme cauldron must be bubbling away in "there"!

So many threads look like swiss cheese to me tonight (up to 125 on the "list"!)

[bvf]

63. Yeah...

First, that eerie silence, followed by a shitstorm of... well...

I've noticed that the second-stringers are more in evidence today, too.

[Art_from_Ark]

68. They've unleashed the Eeyore Brigade

[kristopher]

69. +1

[daleanime]

130. Cute...

yet depressing.

[brooklynite]

149. Feel free to prove us wrong...

How many House and Senate members will get elected with Sanders, and how many of THOSE will be supportive of (or more importantly, will want to focus on) Single Payer?

Here' by the way, is an answer. I've met almost all of our Senate candidates, and many of our House candidates. (BTW - at this point it's too late to get a new candidate up and organized). None of them are campaigning on Single Payer and none of them say it's an issues people are concerned about.

[sorechasm]

161. I can't predict the future, but the DNC approach since 1992 has been a disaster for Democrats in

Congress. With only one exceptional election cycle (the Howard Dean years), we've lost more and more seats in Congress, and we lose more and more registered Democrats. Whatever you're doing for Congress, it doesn't appear to be working too well. Is it possible that these candidates that you are so fond of, are a little closed-minded on the subject? Is it possible that they are misinformed about new voters? Are they unaware that there will soon be twice as many Independents as there are registered Democrats in the US?

Don't we want more enthusiastic Democratic voters? Why is the DNC dissing voter enthusiasm in favor of control over shrinking fiefdoms?

[brooklynite]

163. THE DNC approach since 1992 got us 8 years of a Democratic President, the House and Senate...

...and that followed losing 44 States (1980), 49 States )1984) and 40 States (1988).

As for "dissing vote enthusiasm", you're welcome to disregard what I said in favor of your own dreams, but nobody's telling me there's a national mood for a battle over Single Payer.

[Fawke Em]

162. If none of them say it's an issue people are concerned about, they need to

get out of the rich-people's bubble and start listening to the average person.

The ACA has helped, but it has, by no means allowed the average person to access our healthcare system without going broke if you have something more than the flu.

[brooklynite]

166. I see: Russ Feingold is in a "rich people's bubble"

So apparently is Ted Strickland.

[artislife]

171. WE have never heard Russ Feingold...just something you say you heard.

That doesn't mean jack to a lot of us.

[brooklynite]

174. Fair enough...tell us all a Senate candidate who IS advocating "Single Payer"

[JonLeibowitz]

178. Bernie Sanders. Senate candidate, 2018.

[Fawke Em]

192. There you have it.

[artislife]

183. Tell me who is brave in the Senate..nt

[Fawke Em]

193. My point was: if they aren't talking about it, they're in a bubble because average

people do talk about it.

That they're not advocating for it is the problem.

[brooklynite]

194. And you know this how?

The fact that you talk about it and people you know talk about it does not mean the average voter (and the candidates I talk are nationwide) is.

[Fawke Em]

199. The average voter still talks about the cost of healthcare.

They may not call the answer, "single payer," but they know that universal care, Medicare for all, single-payer, a public option or any of the several other names its called is something that is needed.

Single-payer would address most of the healthcare concerns the average person has: http://kff.org/health-costs/poll-finding/kaiser-health-tracking-poll-october-2015/

Just because the ACA is in effect, doesn't mean people can afford it. More people can, but it hasn't really stopped the increases in premiums (it's slowed it, but not stopped it) and it certainly has done nothing about prescriptions.

[artislife]

172. How many of them said Marriage Equality was their number one focus

Gee, politics.

Sometimes the people move the government.

[litlbilly]

64. It's like fox so called news, they come up with a new plan and we see the same thing over and over

It's almost funny at this point. Wait till next week when Bernie officially takes the lead in the polls.

[Le Taz Hot]

118. DU Bernie supporters need to make a bingo card!

With all the reasons why Bernie can't possibly be elected or why Bernie is an evil nasty soshulist who wants to take away your health insurance.

We could offer up prizes like free Bernie buttons or bumper stickers (I'll donate those).

[Fawke Em]

167. And you'd play it backwards!

You'd start with the little chips already on the spaces and, as Bernie blows through another meme, you remove the chip. Once you have five chips removed in a row, you win!



Cute idea, Taz!

[Le Taz Hot]

170. There ya go!

[Fawke Em]

197. Look what I found today!

Not exactly what we were talking about, but it's like someone was reading!

[baldguy]

83. Is there anything factually wrong in the OP?

[Karma13612]

87. Assumptions and incorrect information:

Assumption that the congress will be the same exact makeup.
Re fact vs reality: we had 60 votes, some of which were blue dog dems who are repugs in disguise.

[baldguy]

92. Who are the new House & Senate candidates supporting Sanders' agenda?

How many times has Sanders himself campaigned for them? How much money has he raised for them?

What is the likelihood they'll win?

What is being done to build state & local organizations across the country? What are the plans for beyond 2016?

Movements don't rely one one guy winning one election. And they don't create change from the top down.

[Karma13612]

99. Coattails. Eom

[baldguy]

101. Bernie has none. He doesn't want them.

Therefor he will fail.

[handmade34]

131. your argument is good

but I would advise not to come to the absolute conclusion that "Therefore he will fail"

I love Bernie, I want to live in Bernie's world, I have serious doubts about the peoples' will to continue the support, fight and sacrifice it will take to make his world a reality (at this point I am supporting Hillary)

but I will never say never

[Karma13612]

187. so, another voter who

is creating another self-fulfilling prophecy.

He can't win so don't vote for him.
He can't get stuff done, so don't vote for him.
But sure, if he gets into Office, then you are going to love it.

Vote for him, support him, show the other democrats in other downticket races that we support progressive ideas. That gives Bernie coattails and creates a congress that Bernie will find enjoyable to work alongside.

Again,

If every.single.person who prefers Bernie would cast their doubts aside, and VOTE for Bernie,

HE.WOULD.WIN

And a thoroughly engaged American electorate would continue to push and make sure that things got done in Congress by petitions, phone calls, and marches, etc.

As America's healthcare, economy and educational opportunities strengthen, then so does our resolve. The corporate 3rd way and republicans have actually been weakening us for years so it is harder to fight back.

But fight back we must.

And as we fight to get Bernie into the White House, we are building 'mental muscles' that we will continue to use to continue to fight for what is right and just.

At this point, I am supporting Bernie.

#Bernie16

[Karma13612]

132. My gosh, I actually kinda feel bad for you. Hillary

has lots of support. And it's all from people who want the status quo.

And she is being misleading at times.

If enuf people see her for what she is, your prediction could fall on her instead:

Therefor she will fail.

[GoneFishin]

107. Also the broader assumption that no cause is worth a fight unless success is guaranteed. This lame

ass excuse has been used for the past seven years to avoid advancing any truly progressive measures. It's exactly what I would expect from a fake progressive to justify sitting on their ass whenever there was no money in it for them.

[Karma13612]

126. +++1000

[CorporatistNation]

155. AGREED... In "Their"Opinion We Should Just Say Fuck It And Surrender!

latent Corporatist Supporters i say...

[floriduck]

181. And with the anti-establishment mood in both parties,

I expect the future make up of Congress to become more Bernie friendly over time. Bernie has made it clear that some changes will take time. That time will be disenfranchised voters replacing corporate politicians with populists.

[Tom Rinaldo]

94. Yes, I don't assume that Congress will immediately establish Single Payer nor does Bernie

That is why Sanders voted for the ACA. He constantly tries to move the ball forward for all Americans, but to do that you have to keep pushing forward. You have to have the vision to see where we must be heading. The 40 hour work week did not become law the first time it was proposed or campaigned for. Ideas can move politics, not always immediately but sooner than one might think, but only when they are passionately advocated for. That is what ignites the will of the people, which ultimately is what brings about social change.

[baldguy]

98. For Pres Bernie to get his agenda passed,

he has to either change the minds of people in Congress, or change the people in Congress.

Considering that the Sanders Campaign has pretty much declared war on the DNC, the former isn't very likely. And Sanders is doing nothing to bring about the latter.

[Sheepshank]

144. Exactly this. Bernie has no path for passage of any of his bills nt

[Qutzupalotl]

154. The people can do both.

Change the minds of congress through public pressure, and unseat the members who won't. That's what Bernie has been calling for.

It won't be easy or happen overnight, but you will get there sooner if you don't give up before you start.

[Paulie]

168. Exactly. The Democrats have so much dry powder

We could launch a rocket to Mars. We could have had a public option, but it was thrown away befor it could even be a barganing chip.

[ms liberty]

125. Exactly this. Very good point. n/t

[Dretownblues]

106. You are making a lot of assumptions

And let's assume everything you said is indeed true and is how it plays out, what impact would a Clinton presidency have then? Republicans hate her more then Obama, so are we to assume you think we should just not try for the best option, but just settle for the easier one?

[GoneFishin]

108. yep. The idea that we should just not try something because it will be difficult is such bullshit.

[baldguy]

109. So, we should surrender to the GOP hate machine and give them a new target to hate?

The Clinton hatred has certainly bled into DU.

[Dretownblues]

112. Who is surrendering to the GOP?

To me it sounds like the Clinton supports are, all of DU the past couple of days has been giving into GOP obstruction. It has gotten so bad that many on DU are using GOP talking points against single payer. So please don't tell me about giving into the GOP, the only people doing that seem to be some Clinton supporters.

[Le Taz Hot]

120. Well, yes.

Off the top of my head do you really think the Republicans are going to be any more cooperative with Hillary? They hate her. HATE. HER. And they have coattails so the Republicans will actually gain seats in the House and Senate in 2016 because so many people will come out to vote against her it's a sure win for the Republicans in every way.

Other than Hillary supporters, no one hates Bernie. He's actually pretty well liked in the Congress and the Senate and he WILL have coattails.

Do you guys really not understand all this or are you just textbook blind party loyalists?

[Karma13612]

136. They understand perfectly. They are just being difficult, to perpetuate

a hopeless, convoluted meme to try and scare some Bernie supporters over to their side.

But, as we have seen on countless occasions, this is backfiring for the Clinton camp.

Each time Bernie is 'attacked', Bernie supporters rally around with social media, blogging, and donations.

Keep it up Clinton camp, we can take anything you toss at us because we are on the correct side of history!!

#Bernie16
#FeeltheBern

[daleanime]

2. The choice is simple.....

Do something even at the risk of failure or do nothing and succeed at it.

Please feel free to continue to tell us we can't do anything, just don't expect that to stop us.

[840high]

27. Amen. Sing it loud.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. Vote for Hillary!

She'll do nothing but be convincing at it.

[Kalidurga]

3. I don't understand you either

Why is it that people who want to make things better for other people are demonized? And people who want to make incremental and perhaps imperceptible meaningless changes are lauded?

[Juicy_Bellows]

60. Damn funny thing, ain't it?

The sheer number of posts like this lately is..... hell, I don't know what the hell it is but it seems orchestrated?

[Kalidurga]

66. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

Well I dunno if these attacks are stupid or not. But, people saying hey abandon your liberal philosophy because you can't get conservatives to go along with it well they don't sound very smart.

[Juicy_Bellows]

71. No, no they don't. Nt.

[arcane1]

203. "Vote for Clinton, for she can get conservative policies passed" is the core of this message.

The proponents of this message lack the integrity to openly admit this, but it's 100% true.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

104. Thought the same thing.

[restorefreedom]

96. ^^^^absofrickinlutely this!^^^^^^ nt

[FlatBaroque]

195. Because they are heavily INVESTED in the status quo.

[valerief]

4. It's time the U.S. caught up with the rest of the world. nt

[immoderate]

5. Optimism?

I'll risk being disappointed.

--imm

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Hmmm... where have I heard this argument before?

Oh, right, in 2004 and 2006 when many Dems ran away from marriage equality because there was not a hope in Hell of ever getting it passed.

Funny thing, here we are today with it legal in all 50 states (yes, I know a few are still fighting it, but the courts will smack Alabama down soon).

How did that happen? Well, people didn't take "no" for an answer and didn't listen to the people who told them it was a waste of time.

Even HRC figured that out.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. All it takes for change to happen is courage, conviction and a dream that we can make things better.

All it takes for failure to occur is to do nothing.


Vote for the dream.

Vote for Bernie Sanders.

[treestar]

114. It takes a Congress too

There's no way around that. This aspirational type language applies to individuals perhaps. But in politics you can't simply believe in your own dreams - you are dealing with everyone else.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

124. And it also takes a candidate that people believe in

to enact change: helping Main Street and not enriching Wall Street.

[treestar]

148. it takes congressional candidates that people believe in

But people tend to ignore that and blindly vote in the incumbent without realizing they could be going against their own interests.

People get too obsessed with the Presidency and the concept that the right President could get it all from a faceless powerless Congress.

We learned from the ACA battle that is not the case. Or, some people learned.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

169. So vote for Wall Strret's incremental, Abuela?

[treestar]

175. you're proving my point

saying zip about Congress and doing straight to the Presidency.

Who are you voting for for Congress? Do you even know?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

189. Yes, as a matter of fact I do know who I am voting for.

I'm sure you know who you are voting for as well.

I don't vote blindly, and I don't vote for the corporate suit.

[handmade34]

135. "All it takes...is courage, conviction and a dream that we can make things better"

no, it takes a hell of a lot more... time, money, hard work, sacrifice, the will to fight and continue to fight even when it is difficult...

and that sacrifice and fight keeps on even once you get someone elected... I watched people work hard to help Barack Obama get elected and 2 years later give up... I have little faith in the people of the United States to keep up the work to make the change they claim to want so badly

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

164. It won't take more Wall Street insiders

to effect change nor D+R candidates that are already in bed with them either.

[pangaia]

7. What May I ask, what is your point?

Don't vote? Go out for a rack of lamb, potatoes au gratin and baked asparagus with balsamic vinegar?

Stay in and watch Netflix? (However you wish to interpret that one.)

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. must be tough going through life with such low expectations, such little imagination, so few dreams

[earthside]

9. If you think small ...

... that's all you are going to get.

Dare to work for something big, for really saving the country.

It is this narrow, risk averse, "practical" approach that has gotten us into the situation we are in with the 1 percent controlling 95 percent of the wealth, with people who still cannot afford health insurance or who cannot afford their co-pays.

Sander has a big vision; Clinton has hardly any vision at all except for seeing herself back in the White House.

For heaven's sake, the Trump supporters are thinking really, really big -- we are even bigger if we just actually believe for a change that we can really bring peace and justice and equality to the nation.

I, for one, am not falling for the disappointment of a Hillary Clinton presidency that will only work at the margins and has to give-in to Repuglican majorities in Congress. In fact, I think that the Sanders revolution will be the beginning of an America that works for all of us.

[delrem]

10. Then why vote at all? Why even bother?

Your post is the ultimate in slavish resignation.

It sure the hell isn't GOTV stuff for Hillary Clinton, if that's who you've come here to this political board to sell.

[Luminous Animal]

11. Because Bernie asks all of us to have his back to reform congress. One step at a time.

Eyes on the prize.

[delrem]

15. But they say you can't DO that. The Republicans won't let you.

Only the Republicans and their toadies can lead.

So you'd better die inside and vote Hillary Clinton.

[Luminous Animal]

17. It is incredible how many times I've read on this board that we can't do that

because FOX news will make a heyday out of it.

I refuse let FOX news lead me by the nose.

It is a new day, people. Shed off your fear.

[delrem]

36. All they have left is slavishness.

I can understand the Clinton families slavishness to $$$. It's remarkable and they've broken new ground, that's for sure. I don't resent it - in the world we live in there'll always be a solid connection between big money and big power, and there'll always be "winners" with big money, incredible money, and the Clinton clan is hardly a pip on their radar, so far.

I can't understand the slavishness of people who don't know any better than to just bow down to it in electoral politics, like this OP suggests ought to be the rule.

[arcane1]

204. At this point, I'm convinced it's a game of good cop/bad cop when I hear that argument.

It's an appeal for us to surrender to Fox and the right wing.

No progressive would make such an appeal, so clearly it's not coming from the left, nor does it promote anything from the left.

[samrock]

23. Voting for Hillary does not mean I have died inside!!!

How darn you claim that.. So all that vote for Hillary are defeatist, traitors to the democratic party!?!?!?! I have great hope that if Hillary is elected we will be better off.. It is this attitude of superiority I get from many on this board who support Bernie Sanders that I resent..

[delrem]

28. I'm responding to your defeatist OP.

So OK, you also support Hillary Clinton.
What a surprise.

[samrock]

33. So because I support Hillary

I must be a toadie?? My OP was not defeatist it was practical.. Know the difference???

[murielm99]

37. Don't listen to them.

They may dominate this board, but not much else.

I am glad to see another brave Hillary supporter here. Welcome!

[delrem]

42. I'm categorizing the thinking in your OP.

You're hardly going to change my mind by reciting nothings.

[PoliticalMalcontent]

44. I think you hit the nail on the head.

You have great hope that if Hillary is elected we will be better off. People that back Sanders feel similarly about their candidate. Nothing wrong with it. It's just a difference of opinion. No biggie.

[libdem4life]

12. Don't worry, some understand that one must first conceive of, believe in and

be committed to Anything before it may begin to emerge. Every single thing you can see, touch or feel, began with an idea in someone's mind and the determination to bring it into reality. It's a law of physics.

[Bjornsdotter]

13. Somebody

...took that first step out of the cave and others followed.

Somebody took that first step all through history to move forward and improve life. Sometimes that person failed.

If someone doesn't take that first step we will never move forward. I prefer to walk with the person making that first step. I don't want to sit around and say we can't do something. I want to be with a leader, not a follower.

[Armstead]

14. So "D" stands for Defeatism?

[Autumn]

18. What is with all this why bother we can't do anything crap?

There seems to be an epidemic of these OPs.

[Armstead]

22. Some of it's old shit....Some of it's the new desperate meme, methinks

A lot of is the lame junk that's been used to stifle progress and reform for years "Uno we can't do that because (fill in current reason)"

Some of it's anti Bernie. "He actually wants to do something. We can't support that. Vote for Clinton. She won't try to do anything, so you won't be disappointed."

[Autumn]

24. These OPs reek of desperation and they are all

a variation on a theme,

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. I don't want to live in Clinton's Weimar Republic.

If she gains the nomination what is she going to do?

Incremental bullshit?

Don't rock the boat?

Shower Wall Street with love and kisses until it craps on us again?

[Le Taz Hot]

123. It's the way they control the blind party loyalists

who have given up on independent thought, just do as they're told and never ever ask questions.

[Autumn]

127. That shit might fly with republicans,not so much with liberals

[Le Taz Hot]

128. It flies with Democratic Party loyalists, too.

[hrmjustin]

16. DU Rec.

[samrock]

19. I have been voting since Carter/Reagan

I always vote ( never missed and election yet.) I have always voted democratic.. I see so much hate and anger thrown at Hillary.. Some seem to think she is like Darth Vader.. I saw this in 2008 as well. Barack Obama was elected and most of what he got done was in his 1st 2 years.. I was so disappointed in 2010 when we lost the house.. just like in 1994 2 years after Bill Clinton got into office. We need to get more out to vote in every election!! Spewing this hate will just turn people off. So will raising false hopes for things we know will not happen.. Not until we control congress can we get stuff done.. Just remember that,..

[napi21]

49. Every time I post something about elecying either Dem, I always include the statement:

A Dem President can not get any of their agenda done unless WE also elect a Dem Congress that will work with him(her)! I would HOPE that everyone, at least those on DU, realize that and are working to that end.

[Cartoonist]

20. What can Hillary accomplish

With a Republican congress?

Deregulation of Wall Street, like her master's want.

[samrock]

26. Here master!?!?!?!

She will carry on what Barack Obama started with Dode/Frank and try to expand on it.. If congress will let her.. BTW Barack Obama got a lot of money for his campaign from Wall Street sources.. Was he a slave to Wall Street???

[Armstead]

31. Not a slave to Wall St. But not exasctly as Big Stick either

[Rose Siding]

105. No, Obama's not a slave.

*Filed under things I never thought I'd be inclined to note on du.

And his policy is working, so there's that.

Michael Grunwald ✔ @mikegrunwald

More evidence Wall Street reform is working. Some big banks are breaking themselves up. on.wsj.com/1RF8aLf

6:58 AM - 14 Jan 2016

Wall Street Journal

Not Too Big to Fail. Too Expensive to Exist

Not Too Big to Fail. Too Expensive to Exist

While the U.S. government hasn’t heeded populist calls to “break up” the nation’s largest financial firms, those demands are at times being answered through indirect pressure from regulators.....

https://twitter.com/MikeGrunwald

[Armstead]

191. Good if that happens. We need much more of that

[Cartoonist]

48. I like Obama

He's accomplished a lot with NO help from congress. That right there proves you wrong.

I think Bernie will have a strong down ticket effect.

[samrock]

50. Name for me 1 piece of legislation

Obama got thru congress after the 2010 election that was not simply a budget bill that congress had to pass...

[Cartoonist]

53. None

The same amount as Hillary can expect.

Are you saying the GOP will roll over for Hillary?

[Lochloosa]

25. Teddy was sick and Lieberman was a Democrat.

We Never had 60 votes.

[samrock]

29. Exactly!!!

and if we could get get single payer or better control of Wall Street than, what makes ya think we will in 2017????

[Lochloosa]

38. I'll take my chances with Bernie.

[MrMickeysMom]

30. You might re-word your subject to, "I don't understand the path to a democratic republic"...

... "because if it's worth fighting for... I'm out!"

Just bury your head in the sand instead of the real history of the nation and who, in the timeline of great leaders pulled us out of the brink of oligarchical fascism and economic decline.

"Oh, boo-hoo... Even if we had leadership, it's too hard to challenge the House Representatives who work for the American people. It's too hard to demand equal representation in voting districts, and that every vote be accounted for and that poor people are part of this equality equation. I'm gonna just sit here in the dark and start another distracting thread to throw water on something I don't want to understand myself! "

[slipslidingaway]

32. You do realize that the Dems Cowered and did not fight for uninversal HC ...

instead of a for profit system of HC system. Trust me, I have my doubts as my husband has had two allogeneic transplants in the past 5 years and our daughter just starting practicing internal medicine. Still after being fortunate enough to pay for her college we are struggling with the out of pocket maximums going on our year seventh year.

If we did not have the support of family and friends we would be in a different place.

We have lived for many months with other cancer patients at Hope Lodge in NYC who did not have access to the best care.

Care should be determined by need and not money.

[saltpoint]

34. Good ideas often face heated

opposition early on.

That doesn't mean they aren't good ideas and it doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue them.

Pursuing meaningful change is one of the highest functions of a democracy.

In outlining his goals in his Inaugural Address, John Kennedy acknowledged that they may not be accomplished in short order, that they may not be accomplished for the length of any presidential term, or even one individual's life on the planet.

"But," Kennedy said, "let us begin."

[slipslidingaway]

39. "let us begin."

truer words were never spoken, when should we speak our minds, there is never a convenient time.

[Truprogressive85]

35. The same coud be said, : if HRC were President how will she get anything done ?

Republicans will never allow HRC to do anything and midterms 2018 another GOP wave no thank you

We need president that will energize voters and get them out to vote not only in 2016, 2018 and beyond

[delrem]

40. Hillary is very right-wing on economics and war. They'll get a shitload done.

Vote against it.

[samrock]

55. Let me get this straight...

so she is not right wing.. oh no she is VERY right wing.. Ya see in my eyes that just destroys your credibility.. Rand Paul is very right wing.. Ted Cruz is very right wing.. Hell economically speaking Jeb Bush is very right wing. Hillary is left of center.. Did she vote for Bush's tax cuts???

[madville]

133. Did she vote for the Iraq War?

The only reason she is appearing left on economics and inequality is because Bernie's campaign pulled her over there.

[beltanefauve]

184. And in reality

she wasn't "pulled to the left " at all. Her RHETORIC was pulled to the left.

[mahina]

41. Turnout.

A landslide and long coat tails.

The truth he's serving is hungered for, so as a supporter, my hope and expectation is that he will bring enough people to the polls to move the whole equation.

I am an optimist but also a realist.

With the Republican candidate as weak as he will be, there's a good chance that the R turnout will be low.

With a candidate like Bernie who is not afraid to tackle the big picture problems, we stand a chance to win very big.

The young people in my area are all for Bernie. They were very grudgingly for Obama last time around, felt that there was no real hope. They are not feeling cynical now, but do understand what it's going to take.

They take a little work

The kupuna are all for Bernie.

The independents and reasonable Republicans are all for Bernie, those that I know anyway.

I think we can win in a landslide, and bring Congress along with us.

I think the MSM and the powers that be are very afraid of that outcome too.

[lostnfound]

129. Turnout. And midterms.

Bernie speaks clearly enough to the economic misery of the American people that he can push the goalposts from the right end of the field back toward the fifty-yard line where American politics belongs.

Coat tails and midterms.

[Luminous Animal]

43. We are similar to those who supported Bobby Kennedy. Though Bernie comes from a stronger position.

[ucrdem]

45. Strangely enough it seems the internet makes some people less informed, not more.

If the internet had been around in '92 when I first learned of the Socialist from Vermont it would have taken me a few minutes instead of a few months to verify that he's not actually a Socialist in any useful sense of the word. But even then it didn't take much digging to get his number.

[CBGLuthier]

46. That's OK. I don't understand ANY of the people supporting Clinton

Old guard corporation owned worst type of a politician with no real values other than what the polls tell her will get her elected.

[Art_from_Ark]

47. I realize the donkey is the symbol of the Democratic Party

But it's not THIS donkey, dammit!

[Dawson Leery]

51. "Hopeium 2.0"

[Fumesucker]

73. Hopium, my right wing neighbor uses that term on a near hourly basis.

I do believe that is the first time I've seen that particular slur aimed at Obama on DU though.

[HassleCat]

52. What makes you think Clinton can deliver on her promises?

She faces the same Congress as Sanders.

[Hoyt]

59. You gotta have a George McGovern or Dukakis landslide loss every 20 years or so to remind people.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. So

[Live and Learn]

62. More from the Can't Do campaign. Not a very winning strategy if you ask me. nt

[Maedhros]

65. This is the third, essentially identical, thread that has popped up from three different posters.

All with "serious" concerns.

Nice message control. Try to make it look less orchestrated next time.

[slipslidingaway]

67. Did you break up with my daugther, she is now an internist ....

search back on posts to see where she was 7 years ago.

We paid for college, she is in debt for 200k + for med school.

The HC system is not sustainable, she recognizes that and although in high school she registered as an R she is now voting for Sanders, she might/ or might not vote for Hillary if she was the candidate, not enthusiastic for Hillary as professional woman.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Disappointment...

[madokie]

72. No

We the people never controlled the house or the senate and haven't for a long ass time.
The rich and well connected, ie those who bribe our politicians by giving them money for their campaigns is who controlled the house and senate you write about, not us. This time we're going to own both by way of our masses giving to a candidate who is not beholding to those who would do us harm. Already here recently in Oklahoma we've elected Two Democratic Congress critters who will work towards the goals we the People lead by Bernie Sanders will be striving for. We are in the midst of a Political Revolution and its being led by none other than Bernie Sanders. Either get in line and help or get out of the way. Thats how I see it

[BooScout]

74. Considering Sanders can't get any Democrats to endorse him...

I also find it amusing to think that he will get anything through Congress. He can promise the moon and stars but he has no way to implement one single thing he promises.

[RiverLover]

76. The lack of endorsements only show how many Dems underestimate Bernie's electability.

Once they see the American people are 80% behind Bernie, just like we are 80% against money in politics, he'll get the support he needs.

Insulated, establishment Dems are getting a huge wake-up call.

[Kentonio]

77. If Bernie Sanders sweeps the general.

Then how many Democratic congress members do you think are going to have the balls to refuse to back his mandate from the people? If they do, then it just means they'll be primaried in the following congressional races. The President picks the head of the DNC remember.

[BooScout]

80. Oooooooh...You're either with us or against us huh?

Now where have I heard that before?

[Kentonio]

82. When 'us' is the majority Democratic party vote of the American people

Then yes, you're either with us, or you're against us. Any Democrat who would stand in the way of universal healthcare doesn't deserve the title Democrat.

[BooScout]

85. ...

[img][/img]

[Kentonio]

115. Indeed

Many people calling themselves liberals and progressives would hate to have that illusion ripped away and the truth that they are actually little more than moderate Republicans exposed. If people oppose universal healthcare, campaign finance reform and a fair living wage and working rights, then they are not on the left of the political spectrum, no matter how much they might like to imagine themselves so.

[BooScout]

147. ...

[img][/img]

[Kentonio]

158. Happy to oblige.

[Autumn]

140. I don't mind at all that democrats aren't endorsing him. That lifts my esteem for him.

The democrats had the chance to lead, now they can follow or get the fuck out of the way.

[BooScout]

146. ...

[img][/img]

[Autumn]

152. I admire people who take time off to "work" for their candidate.

I'm not upset at all by your endorsement, or your parties endorsement of Hillary. Like I said, the fact that they chose to endorse her shows me that I have made the right choice.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

190. Well if Dems want to sit on their hands, if Bernie

is elected, then they will be as effective as if the changed party affiliation. In that case they should be shamed and primaried.

[JonathanRackham]

75. Hillary represents status quo big business.

A lot of rich millionaires too. Her big campaign donors have a lot in common with publian big money donors. Her baggage list is pretty big too. I don't trust her.

A zebra can't change it's spots.

[stillwaiting]

78. I LOVE it when people on "my side" tell me not to fight for what's right.

You have been completely rolled. They have stolen your voice and your power.

If you truly possess the same values as I do please reclaim your voice and your sense of power. We desperately need it.

We CAN build a movement to change how things work. We CAN. Stop getting in the way and join the movement.

[eridani]

79. I'm relly glad that the people who fought for MH legalization and marriqage equality--

--paid no attention to people like you.

Of course getting the government to work for the 99% is going to be very difficult, and just changing presidents is nowhere near enough to do it. Sanders is mobilizing people for the long aaul because he gets that as well. And unlink Clinton, he actually wants to change things.

[99Forever]

81. The Surrender Monkeys are out in force.

Yeah, we know change is sooooooooooooooooooooo hard and skeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery, so don't even try.



The Camp Weathervane whine of the day.

[betterdemsonly]

84. Obama never proposed Universal Health care in the first place

That is one thing that is way different.

[RiverLover]

86. Wow, you could not be more wrong. Here he is on video saying he's for single payer, universal healt

hcare.

"But first we have to take back the White House"

[betterdemsonly]

88. He never once offered a proposal for single payer to congress.

Sorry but that is a fact. What he says during a campaign. Well that clearly never reflected his actual behavior in the real world. Sanders doesn't have a record as a flip flopper Obama had. Sanders is not a a member of the New Democrats, like Obama is. Obama claimed he'd raise minimum wage in that campaign. He has never done it once. His 2 terms are almost over.

[RiverLover]

103. Yeah, we know he wasn't what he pretended to be as a candidate now.

Why do you think we want a real progressive this time who isn't just blowing smoke up our --- for our votes.

We won't be fooled again.

We want the real deal. We want Bernie.

[baldguy]

89. It's certainly possible for Sanders to get all of his agenda passed through Congress.

But in order for that to occur, Sanders should be campaigning now for & raising money for like-minded candidates. He has not and has never done that ever in his entire career.

Berniestas try to keep up the illusion that the Sanders campaign is a "movement", but they have one candidate running for one office - Sanders for President. That's not a movement, that's a one-man-band.

American government is not and has never been a one-man band, and agendas don't get passed & singed into law without a supportive Congress. I don't think Bernie realizes that. Or cares.

[betterdemsonly]

90. The new democrats have such a great record of winning congress.

Golly gee.

[baldguy]

95. At least they try. Bernie isn't doing even that.

[betterdemsonly]

97. That is questionable. Ever heard of DWS or Rahm Emanuel.

maybe you mean the try to win for the republicans?

[baldguy]

100. Like Bernie trying to win over Trump supporters?

[betterdemsonly]

119. I have no problem with trying to win their voters so long as

he wins them over to progressive causes. I see no evidence he moving to the right to appeal to their voters, so this is good as far as I am concerned.

I do have a problem with people who try to elect republican candidates, either literally as DWS did in Florida or in a stealth manner by trying to elect people with republican views as Democrats, as both DWS and Emanuel have done.

[Empowerer]

110. They claim that they will force change if he wins by pressuring Congress to do his will

But why aren't they doing that now?

[djean111]

91. There will be many things in life you do not understand, I suppose.

In this case, whether or not you understand is irrelevant. I suspect that what you really don't understand is why Bernie's supporters do not read your OP and immediately switch to Hillary. Remember, saying that a Democratic president would not be able to get anything done is actually NOT a good reason to back Hillary.

Oh, and whatever it is that Hillary would compromise with the GOP on is what frightens me. They hate her, and I cannot imagine any compromise that does not delight the GOP and the Third Way.

[tazkcmo]

93. It's harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdddddddddddddddddddddddddd n/t

With HRC, Sputnik would have been the goal, not the start.

[Sancho]

102. You are correct - it's not a meme - it's rational.

On CSPAN this Saturday morning callers said the same thing over and over (even Bernie supporters): Single-payer has no chance in the immediate future in the US.

There's a possibility that a public option would show up in some states as a competition to private insurance. There's a chance to expand Medicare and Medicaid to larger pools. There's no chance to have a federal single-payer at this time; whether Bernie is elected or not.

The same thing with bank regulation. Most big banks are international and outside of US regulation. Financial regulations might be tightened, and some banks might split up, but the President can simply "break up the banks".

[mikehiggins]

122. Nope, it is a meme.

A meme that lots of people repeat is still a meme.

"We can't fight because we can't win" is another meme.

Wonder what the gay folks getting married around the US think of that one?

I do appreciate how many posters seem concerned that us poor, self deluded Sanders supporters, will be disappointed when we don't get anything near what we want, single payer in the immediate future.

Is that what we expect? Well, to paraphrase a famous President it all depends on what the word "is" "is".

[Vinca]

111. The point is, you can't stop trying.

Bernie might well be able to add a public option to Obamacare if he gets some numbers in the Congress. That would morph into single-payer over time. It drives me nuts that suddenly all the people now supporting Hillary who used to be for single-payer are so willing to settle. The insurance companies are already taking advantage of the situation and the affordable rates first offered by the ACA are creeping upward to unaffordability . . . again. The only way to end it is to get big insurance out.

[Cassiopeia]

113. I don't understand Clinton supporters

not even wanting to try.

It's one thing to know it will be a hard road. It's quite another to give up before even trying just because the road will be hard.

Additionally, Sanders is running to change more than just healthcare reform and Wall Street reform. He has a bigger platform than just those two issues.

[randome]

117. It doesn't seem hard. It seems impossible.

Everyone is running to change things. Sanders is not a Democrat. He is using the banner of the Democratic Party for his own ends. That's what a pragmatic politician would do but he has virtually no support among Congress. Clinton has the endorsements and the connections.

Best to work with what you've got instead of holding out for something unrealistic.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Cassiopeia]

121. Ah, the not a Democrat meme is back.

Labels mean nothing to me, ideas and goals do.

Clinton's goal is to continue the core problems and even exacerbate them. I do not find that acceptable.

[randome]

137. Our acceptance is irrelevant unless people are in the street demanding something.

Ignoring reality is just more of this:

I hope you have a Plan B 'in case' Sanders does not become President. That Plan B should be to push Clinton further to the left. Anything less is just giving up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Karma13612]

138. Ha! My plan is better than that!

In 2020, if she has remained happy with the status quo, as I predict, then I am going to ring the

"Primary her @$$" bell so loud, it will be heard on the ISS.

[randome]

157. I think Clinton will turn out to be a fine President. Of course I could be wrong.

She'll have that first term to prove her bonafides so we'll have to wait and see. And if Sanders somehow manages to eke out a victory, then he'll have that same opportunity to prove himself.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

116. They want it to be simple

a Revolution from the top down. 8 years hasn't convinced them that Congress has power and is not made up of people that will be easily swayed if only the right President has the "bully pulpit."

[Orangepeel]

134. Beanie's not stupid. He wouldn't dismantle Obamacare

Without being able to replace it with something better, which he wouldn't be able to do with the Congress he would get.

[JudyM]

139. It's all about what you're willing to compromise.

What we will most likely get with each candidate and what we will likely lose.

I like Bernie's horizon line more than Hillary's. Genuine reform of the "business" of government.

I'm not convinced that Hillary will be more likely to make headway in congress. The meme of voting against her will justify Rethugs' not crossing the aisle.

I choose to have faith (that is pretty much what it is, I admit) that voters will choose Bernie over any Rethug candidate, even if by a narrow margin. While the polls are not dispositive, the head of steam he is generating with small donations is concrete evidence that his populism is a genuine phenomenon. I have faith that this will continue to capture hearts in the general, particularly when put up against hate mongering on the other side.

I have a lot of respect for Hillary's efforts, intellect and passion, but her "disliked/mistrusted" factor is among swing voters is, I believe, far more of a vote deterrent than socialism is. The fact that Martin (King, not O'M) endorsed democratic socialism will likely spread and win over many African Americans, in my opinion.

And maybe most importantly, in my heart, I want to keep holding the possibility that corruption can actually be pushed out of our government and that we can sensibly move toward economic justice and restock the cards in favor of citizens instead of big money. I feel like, even with all her strengths, Hillary will be less passionate about making that happen.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

141. I expect this is the new meme?

[mmonk]

142. We're not propagandized into accepting

the current system.

[Sheepshank]

143. Bernie has done nothing to cultivate down ticket allies

Even worse he has undermined the Democratic Party and is hurting all possible future down ticket allies. I laughed at the unrealistic expectations of another thread already planning on losing a job, but getting that free education to find another career...as if the first year in office anything Bernie wanted, he would get any of these pie in the sky policies passed, funded and approved and implemented exactly as touted on the campaign trail.

[Thinkingabout]

156. I am still waiting for his plan to be released. The biggest problem is the congressionlal makeup.

This is why raising funds for down ticket candidates in hope we can change the congressional makeup election by election. Obama got the best he could with ACA, it is not perfect but neither was Medicare when it first passed. Obama had to work to get the votes to pass ACA and since then the GOP has tried over 50 times to repeal the law, this is the problems faced by Obama and will be by any Democratic president.

[cantbeserious]

145. Ever More Loathsome Fear Mongering And Obfuscation

eom

[Douglas Carpenter]

150. once again for the thousandth time

Few if any progressives believe Bernie can accomplish all or perhaps even most of the agenda during his first term or perhaps even two terms anymore than the European social-democrats accomplished their goals during the first 4 to 8 years they held power. Nor did Reagan achieve the Reagan agenda during his two terms.

I find it embarrassing that this has to be explained over and over again. The point is you cannot advance a progressive agenda even incrementally without a progressive agenda declared openly and clearly. Continually electing people who simply don't believe in a progressive agenda is NOT going to lead to a progressive society.

Bernie is not proposing anything for the banks and big corporations that Teddy Roosevelt did nor champion. He is not proposing much if anything in social benefits that other western democracies have had for more than a generation. We are just getting a late start. If we don't start down that path now, when can we?

The naivete of many supporters of Secretary Clinton in jaw dropping.

[ViseGrip]

151. While this is ONE large issue, the banks another it is Sanders authenticity. What's to understand?

[Enrique]

153. I don't think he can get single payer at this point

but breaking up the banks is something he can do without Congress, the Treasury Dept. has that power under existing law.

[INdemo]

159. And Hillary will have a Majority in both Houses?

What is your point?

[onecaliberal]

160. Stop already. We are NOT going along to get along.

That's how we got here. Before this election cycle everyone was in support of Bernie and his policy. Suddenly now we can't do any of it. I will tell you what I can't do. I can't vote for people to fuck over my family my fellow citizens and the country one iota more.

[Warren Stupidity]

165. yes best not to even try.

"not dare to struggle not risk to lose" - why the 10s aren't the 60s.

[artislife]

173. Vote for h, the GREAT UNCHANGE

Who cares that we need decisive change? Our timeline on earth is rapidly coming to an end because of incremental change.

eff that.

[AgingAmerican]

176. The ol' 'defeatism' tack

[90-percent]

177. IT'S BERNIE OR OLIGARCHY

And Bernie has repeated told us that HE CAN'T DO IT ALONE!

OP is like George Carlin's "corporations own you" classic bit:

"BE HAPPY WITH WHATCHA GOT!"

I'm doing my best to support Bernie in spite of the chances I may be disappointed. I follow my hero Frank Zappa on this; "First, don't stop. Second, keep going."

-90% Jimmy

[Fearless]

179. If you do not try, you fail 100% of the time.

[Trajan]

180. Hillary would face the same hateful congress ....

You might pretend that the right wing congress would be more agreeable to Hillary, but they hate her more than anybody ...

If you don't have the vision to see your way to a better world, then, I have no idea why you even vote ... What exactly are you voting 'for' ? ... More of the same ? .... stay where we are and dont advance our society forward ?

Scared to try new things ? .... Afraid somebody might disagree ? ... what then ? ... When the GOP says, NO FOOD STAMPS, we say "ok then .... cut all food stamps" because the republicans in congress disagree ?

Just WHERE do you intend to draw the line and say "no more!" .. ?

When is the right time for public education ? ... When is the right time to fight global climate change ? ... When is the right time to fight for clean air and clean water ? ...

We DONT try to make our world better, because republicans in congress might disagree ?

FUCK that ... that is pure cowardice !... Without the inner drive to compel you to TRY to make things better for our own people, because "Republicans" ... Then you are a slave to the status quo ... IF we follow you, we get nowhere ...

You are too afraid to fight for what is right ... There is no reason that good citizens who wish to improve their lot on earth would ever want to follow your lead .... You lead nowhere, because you are afraid of republicans ...

Sorry, but I prefer a grander vision than yours ... a vision that includes motivating voters to rise from their stupor, and seize the fucking day ... to stand up for regular people ... to affect change because its the RIGHT thing to do ...

It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to regain a more robust public education system ...
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to protect and expand Social Security for America's seniors ...
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to return corporate taxes and taxes on the wealthy to a more balanced model ...
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to reinstate Glass Steagal
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to protect voter rights
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to improve workplace rules
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to protect and promote unionization
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to promote laws on the markets that decrease the chances for major recessions and depressions.
It's RIGHT to fight the republicans to provide more help to homeless veterans and non-veterans alike ...

Look ... This mamby pamby whining about how difficult it is to work with a republican congress is nonsense ... it is surrender ...

You have nothing to fight for - You might as well just agree with the republican congress .... Vote for a republican ... I'm guessing it really doesnt matter to you - You got nothing else going ...

[draa]

182. Damn, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Excellent job and I may repost that sometime if it's ok by you. Either way, give 'em hell Trajan.

[Bluenorthwest]

185. I'm sick of the strategy of giving the Republicans what they want without making them take it

In my life, I negotiate by starting high, not by starting with that which I think will please the other side of the bargaining table. This dedication to mediocrity is not healthy.

Clinton would face the same Congress. If we got a whole different Congress with her you might have a point, but we don't so you don't.

[vkkv]

186. Samrock - it's more than that. Bernie can win while HRC might not be able to

win the general election against Marco Rubio.

[thesquanderer]

188. A lot can happen in 8 years.

But if you prefer the status quo rather than trying to take the first steps toward actually maybe being able to make some real changes, well, there's a candidate for that, too.

There are 34 U.S. Senate seats up for election in 2016. Of those seats, 24 are currently held by Republicans. The coattails of a strong Dem victory in November could flip many of them.

If Sanders wins, the Senate Dems will be led by a President who wants and is willing to fight for single payer. In 2010, even with a majority, they were being led by a President who didn't even put it on the table. Anyone trying to get Single Payer through in 2010 was fighting against the tide. Anyone fighting for it under a Sanders presidency would have a lot of wind at their back.

In short, times change, the voting body changes, the leadership changes... sure, a different outcome is possible. Not everything worthwhile succeeds in its first attempt.

[AngryOldDem]

196. Good argument for making the case to not vote at all.

I mean, really, why bother, when you lay it out like that?

[Warren DeMontague]

198. Someday, it is extremely probably that I will, in fact, die.

so I guess there's just no point in doing anything, ever, huh.

[LWolf]

200. No, I'm not.

Setting myself up for huge disappointment.

You see, I've actually paid attention. I know that Sanders has never said he was just going to march into the WH, tell Congress to "cut it out," and accomplish everything in record time.

And I've never expected, nor suggested, that.

It seems like, if you honestly "do not understand," you'd have paid some attention to Sanders' campaign to gain some understanding...if you really wanted to.

[arcane1]

202. Well that's totally unoriginal. Which PROGRESSIVE policies will Hillary get through congress?

Nobody wants to answer that question.

It's almost as if people want us to just accept that only concervative policies will get done, so we should vote accordingly.

No, that can't be it.

[thereismore]

205. It's Dodd. You sound defeatist. This is a political revolution. Perhaps you should stay home. nt