2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA question I would have liked to see asked last night
Hypothetical: Bernie is president. Congresses passes a bill to overturn Obamacare, just like the one that recently made it to President Obama's desk. Does he sign it or use his veto?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)There is no reason to overturn Obamacare. Not even if it's to replace it with single payer. We can like the person who hates their job look for another job while keeping the one we have.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)People who tell you that he'll get rid of the ACA before single payer is instituted are liars.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)last night he said ACA had increased expenses and made health coverage worse for some people.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Have fun with the hypothetical.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)but I read a bit about it.
The fact is the GOP just got a majority vote to defund Obamacare. They even got a veto proof majority in the House. The idea that a Bernie presidency will miraculously make them want to embrace single payer is sheer folly. The question about whether or not he is committed to Obamacare is the key one, because it is only path for expanding or even maintaining health coverage.
I also have serious problems with his forthrightness on the issue. In 2009, when we had a Democratic majority in both houses, he declared single payer dead in the water. Now he insists all we have to do is elect him and we'll get single payer. I find that absolutely and completely unbelievable, and given his previous comments I don't think he believes it either. That relates very much to your poll about honesty. When politicians make promises they know they can't keep, that is not honest. That is one of the THE principle reasons why I cannot and will not support Sanders. I don't like bullshit. I don't like politicians who pretend to be revolutionaries. I find it cynical and manipulative.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)In 2010, he said single payer never had a chance during the negotiations the year before.
"It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that's it," he said, addressing a topic central in the minds of many who the bloggers and left wing talk show hosts gathered for the 4th annual Senate Democratic Progressive Media Summit in Washington reach everyday. . .
Sanders said it was still possible for single-payer to come to the U.S. eventually -- but he said the road will not begin in Washington. If a state like California or Vermont ever instituted a single-payer system on its own, Sanders said, it would eventually lead to national adoption of universal coverage.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance
On Obamacare:
But the language of his legislation all three times he introduced it clearly stated that existing federal programs would be replaced with a new program that he sought to create. It wouldnt simply increase current levels of coverage but would create a whole new health insurance system with new quality-control methods, a new standards board, and more.
We wavered between Two and Three Pinocchios. Sanders makes it sound as if he would tack on some additional provisions or coverage to ACA when, in reality, his new single-payer health system would replace the ACA and all other existing federal coverage. He employs political wordsmithing by calling the criticism of his bill old-fashioned political gimmickry. However, he did help write ACA by pushing for an alternative (community health centers) to his single-payer system, making an important contribution to help get the law passed. So that tipped his rating to Two Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/23/bernie-sanderss-claim-that-he-would-expand-not-dismantle-the-affordable-care-act/
On a few other issues: three pinocchios
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/01/11/bernie-sanderss-claim-that-glass-steagall-banned-commercial-bank-loans-to-shadow-banks/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/05/a-bipartisan-failure-in-talking-about-prisons-and-the-war-on-drugs/
two pinocchios
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/03/sanders-evolving-and-wishy-washy-stance-on-same-sex-marriage/
Superpacs (see links in post below)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=549584
Politifact rulings
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/statements/byruling/false/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/statements/byruling/barely-true/
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Can you document any actual lies, as opposed to documenting how correct a columnist thought he was in his claims?
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)and unbelievable. I didn't use the word liar. I said I don't trust politicians who make unrealistic promises, particularly when they know they can't keep them. Sanders comments from 2010 indicate that he does in fact know it's not possible, yet that doesn't stop him from running a campaign on the issue.
The fact checkers determine if candidates are truthful, and you can see at politifact that Sanders and Clinton have roughly equal ratings in that regard. The assumption that he is inherently more honest than Clinton is not supported by evidence. The value of fact checking sites is they seek to be impartial, whereas you and I can go back and forth all day about whether or not something is true or false.
One clearly false claim was during the first debate when he insisted he hadn't voted to give immunity to gun corporations. http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/politics/democratic-debate-fact-check/
Clearly he did and has now decided to--kinda sorta--reverse his position on that. Other statements from that same debate were rated false.
Additionally, some of the links from politifact--like the poverty rate--show clearly counterfactual statements. The poverty rate is not, according to census data, at an all time high. So why would he even say that?
The only explanation I can think of is that he is thinking of the poverty rate for white men rather than all Americans; framing the issue that way is itself problematic.
JudyM
(29,235 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)My guess is that you do know and your op is simply an attempt to misrepresent Sanders just like Hillary does.