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Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 12:11 PM Jan 2016

Breaking: Krugman endorses Single Payer and Medicare for All!!!

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/why-not-single-payer/?_r=0

Why not single-payer?
October 7, 2007 5:31 pm
Paul Krugman

The alternative would be single-payer, aka Medicare for all: a payroll tax on everyone, and a government insurance program for everyone. Wouldn’t that be simpler, easier to administer, and more efficient?

Yes, it would.


And here he goes full on Socialist... like old school government-delivers-the-means, socialist...


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/why-not-a-public-option-for-medicare/

Why Not A Public Option for Medicare?
April 12, 2011 9:27 am
Paul Krugman

But if you want a really radical proposal — but one that, unlike privatization, actually has strong evidence on its side — why not add a true public option to Medicare?

What do I mean by that? I mean creating a network of hospitals and clinics actually run by the government — a civilian VA, as Phillip Longman puts it — and giving Medicare recipients the option of using that system.


Oh, and this one's gonna hurt:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/why-the-public-option-matters/

Why the public option matters
September 8, 2009 4:56 pm
Paul Krugman

Most arguments against the public option are based either on deliberate misrepresentation of what that option would mean, or on remarkably thorough misunderstanding of the concept, which persists to a frustrating degree...


Here, he is downright promoting "Socialized Medicine"

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/why-americans-hate-single-payer-insurance/

Why Americans hate single-payer insurance
July 28, 2009 11:45 am
Paul Krugman

Because they don’t know they have it...

One of the truly amazing and depressing things about the health reform debate is the persistence of fear-mongering over “socialized medicine” even though we already have a system in which the government pays substantially more medical bills (47% of the total) than the private insurance industry (35%).

In a way, this is the flip side of the persistent belief that the free market can cure healthcare, even though there are no places where it actually has...




Then there's this chestnut....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Health_Care_Act

Paul Krugman described savings from elimination of insurance company overhead and hospital billing costs in 2005 as follows:[2]

The great advantage of universal, government-provided health insurance is lower costs. Canada's government-run insurance system has much less bureaucracy and much lower administrative costs than our largely private system. Medicare has much lower administrative costs than private insurance. The reason is that single-payer systems do not devote large resources to screening out high-risk clients or charging them higher fees. The savings from a single-payer system would probably exceed $200 billion a year, far more than the cost of covering all of those now uninsured.

Applying Krugman's $200 billion savings estimate to the U.S. population of approximately 300 million people representing 100 million households,[11] this amounts to approximately $650 per person or $2,000 per household. A study by Harvard University and the Canadian Institute for Health Information estimated the 1999 costs of U.S. health care administration at nearly $300 billion, accounting for 30.1% of health care expenses, versus 16.7% in Canada. This study estimated the U.S. per-person administrative cost at $1,059.[12] One organization that advocates nationalized health care estimated this savings could be as high as $350 billion per year in "...overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay."[13]


I will leave you with Paul Krugman's own words...

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/opinion/09krugman.html?hp

Health Care Terror

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 9, 2007

So this is a test. The only things standing in the way of universal health care are the fear-mongering and influence-buying of interest groups. If we can’t overcome those forces here, there’s not much hope for America’s future.


Which....by the way is pretty much what Bernie is saying.


====

If you agree with Paul Krugman, please Kick and Recommend
165 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Breaking: Krugman endorses Single Payer and Medicare for All!!! (Original Post) Bread and Circus Jan 2016 OP
2007 was some kind of alternate universe.....Krugman was Bernie, Hillary was Annie Oakley.... virtualobserver Jan 2016 #1
But you know who was Bernie back then? Bernie. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #8
Straight Up Stryder Jan 2016 #51
OVER half the people stand AGAINST single payer. Hortensis Jan 2016 #121
Link? cui bono Jan 2016 #135
I posted it in another thread, Cui. Hortensis Jan 2016 #158
So you can't post it here? cui bono Jan 2016 #159
Sure. Here you go, Cui: "How Change Happens" Hortensis Jan 2016 #160
Thank you. cui bono Jan 2016 #161
Really? Single payer has been a big active issue Hortensis Jan 2016 #162
No doubt azmom Jan 2016 #102
Nothing Has Changed About The Financing of Health Care.. It HAs Despite ACA, ONLY Gotten CorporatistNation Jan 2016 #25
Paul Krugman criticized the ACA saying that "we took what the INdemo Jan 2016 #82
Wait...Krugman is no longer under the Bernie Bus? Sheepshank Jan 2016 #59
I don't think he's a crook. Fawke Em Jan 2016 #68
yeah fairly sure he's a sellout PatrynXX Jan 2016 #97
Krugman led all the cheers for the Clinton White House on NAFTA. bvar22 Jan 2016 #118
Fairly disingenuous; here are the top comments for his "Weakened at Bernie's" post: Chathamization Jan 2016 #138
Nice :) Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #87
Bernie's particular single payer plan is, of course, based on fantasy accounting. DanTex Jan 2016 #2
You keep saying that but economists disagree. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #10
I'll trust Krugman on this one. DanTex Jan 2016 #11
me too. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #13
Good. Now all we need is for Bernie to come up with a plan that's not DanTex Jan 2016 #20
I suppose the meaning of the post is WHICH KRUGMAN? highprincipleswork Jan 2016 #56
Been reading you for several years. Bohunk68 Jan 2016 #129
you've been listening to sarah palin, hopemountain Jan 2016 #134
I'll trust the 170 top economist who approve Bernie's plan. n/t TIME TO PANIC Jan 2016 #16
Really, 170 economists have reviewed the plan in the last week? DanTex Jan 2016 #19
Really Uponthegears Jan 2016 #37
I guess it's possible, but apparently it didn't actually happen. DanTex Jan 2016 #39
Damn it, my mind drifted to his Wall street plan. TIME TO PANIC Jan 2016 #38
Yes, 170. nt retrowire Jan 2016 #45
Umm, that article isn't about his health care plan. DanTex Jan 2016 #47
... facepalm* lol nt retrowire Jan 2016 #61
Do you think there was only one copy to pass around or something??? n/t tom_kelly Jan 2016 #62
Ha! SammyWinstonJack Jan 2016 #96
Certainly more than agree with Clinton's "plan"?. Of course those that support the American rhett o rick Jan 2016 #123
Where is this marvelous report to be found? Sheepshank Jan 2016 #114
See post 38. n/t TIME TO PANIC Jan 2016 #116
I'll trust 170 top economists. cui bono Jan 2016 #136
On what is Hillary's single-payer plan based? Gene Debs Jan 2016 #18
Not having one. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #22
Hillary single-payer plan means: Helen Borg Jan 2016 #36
It's based on the plan of not having one. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2016 #79
It works just fine in other countries, why not in America? Dustlawyer Jan 2016 #28
There are no countries on Bernie's plan. DanTex Jan 2016 #29
find a western democracy that does not have single payer virtualobserver Jan 2016 #41
Holland. Germany. DanTex Jan 2016 #44
does medicare work? is it fantasy? virtualobserver Jan 2016 #58
Medicare works. DanTex Jan 2016 #63
expanding medicare will also work. virtualobserver Jan 2016 #65
Depends how it's expanded and whether it's adequately paid for. DanTex Jan 2016 #67
That is what we we will do. virtualobserver Jan 2016 #69
That's what Krugman was doing, when he pointed out that Bernie's current plan wouldn't work. DanTex Jan 2016 #72
Just talked to my family in Germany, and sadoldgirl Jan 2016 #83
Like I said, not single payer. DanTex Jan 2016 #85
So what? You only named two countries. Big deal. cui bono Jan 2016 #137
Hey... DUbeornot2be Jan 2016 #122
They don't need to be. Chef Eric Jan 2016 #49
I agree we need a good system. So does Krugman. DanTex Jan 2016 #52
how well does our current system work for the 30 million uninsured? virtualobserver Jan 2016 #60
Not well. DanTex Jan 2016 #64
Hey! I am excited. You are making progress! I knew this thread would be helpful :) Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #81
Ummm....horse shit..... paleotn Jan 2016 #108
Do Paul and media personality Steven Leser know each other? FlatBaroque Jan 2016 #3
Lol, good one! BeanMusical Jan 2016 #150
Hypocrisy, here is thy sting. Zorra Jan 2016 #4
I stand proudly with this old Krugman. Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #5
+ a brazillion kath Jan 2016 #6
! ejbr Jan 2016 #14
K&R CharlotteVale Jan 2016 #7
This quote gets me: Jarqui Jan 2016 #9
It is a tragedy. Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #34
Bernie's "a little fixated on and still very upset about this" as well sammythecat Jan 2016 #117
I know we can count on Bernie to try to help them Jarqui Jan 2016 #125
k&r nt antigop Jan 2016 #12
Breaking: It's 2016, not 2007 and you and Bernie don't seem to understand that we've synergie Jan 2016 #15
If we could do it then, we can do it now. TIME TO PANIC Jan 2016 #24
Breaking: Krugman was arguing for single payer (or public option) during that debate Armstead Jan 2016 #27
29 Million Still-Uninsured Americans disagree. n/t 99th_Monkey Jan 2016 #31
I have to laugh at you. Nothing has fundamentally changed in regards to laws of economics.... Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #32
I know the fucking date. 99Forever Jan 2016 #95
The one thing that is constant is Krugman being a hack who says whatever is needed to bolster Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #101
Sorry I don't speak Palinese. GeorgeGist Jan 2016 #142
Does Krugman 2.0 ejbr Jan 2016 #17
Kick for truth! Segami Jan 2016 #21
Thanks :) Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #33
Krugman elljay Jan 2016 #23
Most Excellent OP! Maybe Mr. Krugman needs to reboot his calculator 99th_Monkey Jan 2016 #26
I wonder which category the current vrsion of Krugman falls into? Armstead Jan 2016 #30
Oh, this is rich...thank you for this thread, BaC! tex-wyo-dem Jan 2016 #35
It's times like this I truly LOVE the internet. retrowire Jan 2016 #40
Your 2007 articles are not breaking....he's changed his mind 1/23/16 Sheepshank Jan 2016 #42
They see what they want to see nt kjones Jan 2016 #55
And irony is lost upon you as well.... paleotn Jan 2016 #110
The words just don't mean much anymore kjones Jan 2016 #126
Apparently irony is lost upon you. Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #71
You and he can't spin this..... Armstead Jan 2016 #80
Kicked and recommended to the Max! Enthusiast Jan 2016 #43
Krugman still thinks single payer would be a good thing, he just knows it's not politically viable. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2016 #46
So? Give up on the truth because Republicans TEMPORARILY own the House and the Senate? Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #53
Fear of Republicans ... GeorgeGist Jan 2016 #143
Pigheaded determination to ignore inconvenient facts isn't either. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2016 #157
K&R MelissaB Jan 2016 #48
Krugman seems to really want a position in a center-right Clinton administration. Broward Jan 2016 #50
That's exactly what I suspect as well Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #57
hee hee Nicely done BreadandCircus, nicely done. I respect Krugman yet his positions of late Jefferson23 Jan 2016 #54
You Bernie supporters give me whiplash....just yesterday, last week you all hated Krugman Sheepshank Jan 2016 #66
I don't hate him, I said I respect him even though I don't agree with him. Jefferson23 Jan 2016 #73
Hated? Overreact much? A stopped clock is right twice a day, and I don't hate it when it's wrong. libdem4life Jan 2016 #128
Thanks for the ride in the Way Back Machine, Mr. Peabody! beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #70
Actually, he's not recommending Single Payer immediately. lark Jan 2016 #74
Oh God DAMN that's gonna leave a mark. Krugman's not a weather vane... he's a wind sock! cherokeeprogressive Jan 2016 #75
..+1 840high Jan 2016 #153
Great day in the morning libodem Jan 2016 #76
I guess he's "evolved" on the issue... Indepatriot Jan 2016 #77
+1 mountain grammy Jan 2016 #84
Yup...right in line with Hillary on this subject. Nt Sheepshank Jan 2016 #86
evidently hc's plan for the 29 million uninsured questionseverything Jan 2016 #109
Soon after joining Camp Weathervane. GeorgeGist Jan 2016 #144
k n r snagglepuss Jan 2016 #78
Lot's of folks thought it doable back then. Then Lieberman and others got scared. 2016 ain't 2007. Hoyt Jan 2016 #88
Bernie supporter op fail. How embarassing...you should delete Sheepshank Jan 2016 #89
Meaning no transition at all. (nt) paleotn Jan 2016 #112
In light of two quoted statements up thread (Hilary and Krugman), you simply make up shit Sheepshank Jan 2016 #115
Failure my arse.... paleotn Jan 2016 #119
Sent a coworker Krugmans article from yesterday abelenkpe Jan 2016 #90
"Remained a British colony" Duppers Jan 2016 #103
K N R Faux pas Jan 2016 #91
K&R Duval Jan 2016 #92
How embarrassing for Paul Krugman. Was he or isn't he? JDPriestly Jan 2016 #93
Another guy whose positions change with the wind A Little Weird Jan 2016 #94
Things are kinda flippy floppy over in Camp Weathervane. 99Forever Jan 2016 #98
Krugman- Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan Gothmog Jan 2016 #99
Which One? Krugman 2007 or Krugman 2016? Bernblu Jan 2016 #145
The Krugman commenting on what purports to be the Sanders plan Gothmog Jan 2016 #152
Bernie Sanders's fiction-filled campaign Gothmog Jan 2016 #163
I'd think a Nobel laureate could come up with better jibberish. GeorgeGist Jan 2016 #147
It is not jibberish Gothmog Jan 2016 #149
I was calling Krugman a hack before it was cool. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #100
Krugman also says the candidate with the best economic plans is...Hillary. She's very detailed.... Hekate Jan 2016 #104
But wait! That was DIFFERENT! closeupready Jan 2016 #105
Kick panader0 Jan 2016 #106
These are old comments. passiveporcupine Jan 2016 #107
He was for it before he was against it! Bread and Circus Jan 2016 #111
Yeah, I realized after posting that was the point of this thread passiveporcupine Jan 2016 #113
totally misleading title. SleeplessinSoCal Jan 2016 #120
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #124
K&R merkins Jan 2016 #127
A little tax versus $1000 a month. Hmm. Not even close. I vote for Single Payer! nt valerief Jan 2016 #130
K & R! SoapBox Jan 2016 #131
knr nt slipslidingaway Jan 2016 #132
Kickety rec! hifiguy Jan 2016 #133
He also said that on financial reform, the differences between Clinton and Sanders were trivial and Chathamization Jan 2016 #139
then he fell in love with the president, and said goodbye to his liberal principles Doctor_J Jan 2016 #140
Hillary set him straight? GeorgeGist Jan 2016 #141
He's probably angling for a job Bernblu Jan 2016 #146
Debating Krugmans Bernblu Jan 2016 #148
Kick and R BeanMusical Jan 2016 #151
Too Bad ... november3rd Jan 2016 #154
May anyone against single payer and medicare for all The Green Manalishi Jan 2016 #155
Erm, the public option and mandates and all that... joshcryer Jan 2016 #156
Right, so why did Obama and Clinton abandon the public option? Bread and Circus Apr 2016 #165
So much love for Single Payer! Thanks Krugman. Bread and Circus Apr 2016 #164

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
121. OVER half the people stand AGAINST single payer.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:31 PM
Jan 2016

And I'm talking about CONSERVATIVES AND MANY INDEPENDENTS.

Plus, the OP cherry-picked Krugman. He never said the Democrats could make it happen now if they wanted to bother. Quite the contrary!!!! He spoke out against the unrealistic expectations and delusions of many Bernie supporters.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
160. Sure. Here you go, Cui: "How Change Happens"
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 08:26 PM
Jan 2016

By Paul Krugman, NY Times Editorial Page, 01/22/2016, link to full article at bottom:

"Still, there are some currents in our political life that do run through both parties. And one of them is the persistent delusion that a hidden majority of American voters either supports or can be persuaded to support radical policies, if only the right person were to make the case with sufficient fervor.

You see this on the right among hard-line conservatives, who insist that only the cowardice of Republican leaders has prevented the rollback of every progressive program instituted in the past couple of generations. ...

Meanwhile, on the left there is always a contingent of idealistic voters eager to believe that a sufficiently high-minded leader can conjure up the better angels of America’s nature and persuade the broad public to support a radical overhaul of our institutions. ...

But as Mr. Obama himself found out as soon as he took office, transformational rhetoric isn’t how change happens. That’s not to say that he’s a failure. On the contrary, he’s been an extremely consequential president, doing more to advance the progressive agenda than anyone since L.B.J.

Yet his achievements have depended at every stage on accepting half loaves as being better than none: health reform that leaves the system largely private, financial reform that seriously restricts Wall Street’s abuses without fully breaking its power, higher taxes on the rich but no full-scale assault on inequality.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/22/opinion/how-change-happens.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
161. Thank you.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 08:34 PM
Jan 2016

I'm not seeing anything about this claim you made though. That is really what I was interested in seeing numbers for. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I can't imagine that being accurate since everyone loves medicare. If you asked them if they want medicare for all I think most people are for it. Even teabaggers. Remember the signs... "get your govt out of my medicare"?

OVER half the people stand AGAINST single payer.

And I'm talking about CONSERVATIVES AND MANY INDEPENDENTS.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
162. Really? Single payer has been a big active issue
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:04 PM
Jan 2016

Last edited Sun Jan 24, 2016, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

for over 20 years now, and has been popping up for 80 years. Why do you think we don't have single payer? Go read what's been written on this, Cui. We WILL have single payer before you catch up to 01/24/2016.

Okay! I came back to suggest starting with learning about "belief in a just world" and conservative, morality, personality. You can't understand why we don't have single payer until you understand conservative morality and personality.

BIJW arises from inborn conservative personality traits that are also institutionalized in conservative Christian doctrine and can't just be reasoned away.

Basically, those who believe in a just world believe that people tend to get what they deserve and deserve what they get. It's a natural sorting out process, where people's own behaviors lead them to be among the deserving or among the undeserving. This feedback on behavior is seen as critical to the formation of a healthy and moral society.

(One notable personality characteristic of conservatives is their comparatively dark view of human nature - as in, people will behave badly if not required by outside forces to behave well.)

Since it negates the factor of personal deservedness, single payer (and Obamacare for that matter) is seen as a giant, government hand-out that will discourage people from helping themselves and eventually degrade and ruin the nation. By definition, the "deserving" don't need government programs like this and would only be corrupted by them (allowed to strive less) if available.

Enjoy.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
25. Nothing Has Changed About The Financing of Health Care.. It HAs Despite ACA, ONLY Gotten
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jan 2016

worse. Medicare for ALL Remains THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF FINANCING HEALTH CARE... IF... IF THE OBJECTIVE IS TO ENSURE THAT AL AMERICANS HAVE ACCESS TO QUALITY AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE!

That is it... Nothing more Nothing less just pure political Bullshit from Krugman. He gets his bonifides and then he uses them against US! He is not doing his reputation any good!

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
59. Wait...Krugman is no longer under the Bernie Bus?
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jan 2016

As of 1/23/16 he thinks you guys hate him
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/wonks-and-minions/?smid=tw-nytimeskrugman&smtyp=cur

And the response of some — only some — Sanders supporters is disappointing, although I guess predictable given that somewhat similar things happened during the 2008 primary. There will, I guess, always be some people who, having made an emotional commitment to a candidate, can’t accept the proposition that someone might share their values but honestly disagree with the candidate’s approach.

Right now I’m getting the kind of correspondence I usually get from Rush Limbaugh listeners, although this time it’s from the left — I’m a crook, I’m a Hillary crony, etc., etc.. OK, been there before — back in 2008 I was even the subject of tales about my son working for the Clintons, which was surprising because I don’t have a son.

But I’m used to this stuff. It’s a bit more shocking to see Mike Konczal — one of our most powerful advocates of financial reform, heroic critic of austerity, and a huge resource for progressives — attacked as one of Hillary’s minions and an ally of the financial industry.

PatrynXX

(5,668 posts)
97. yeah fairly sure he's a sellout
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:43 PM
Jan 2016

but he's not stupid like hardcore minions like the anti Anita Hill hack. once upon a time he was a good guy. right now Hillary is being run around like Sarah Palin is. she's being used by MEN. Fairly sure the reason Sarah was like totally asdfsoiufhsadouifchoa;usfjesfdoijcoais;df on Trump endorsement day is track's arrest came out of nowhere and she could have been higher than a kite. Sure could use an Elizabeth Warren boost to break this sick mess at the moment. I could see Sanders/Warren being a big power house. I can't see a Clinton / Warren though. and the other name being floated around for a possible running mate for Clinton is irony here after her Commie shit.. is some guy with a last name of Castro. Oh thats just gonna swing Red bait up everywhere. X_X oh and he's trying to learn spanish too. Wait what?? Who ?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
118. Krugman led all the cheers for the Clinton White House on NAFTA.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:24 PM
Jan 2016

NAFTA was the Greatest Thing to Ever Happen!

It was only years later, after the destruction and devastation from NAFTA was too obvious for Krugman and everybody else to ignore did he start crawfishing on his original claims.
Paul Krugman...Head Cheerleader for NAFTA and Free Trade in the 90s.

Not even Krugman is always right.
He has been disastrously WRONG in the past.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
138. Fairly disingenuous; here are the top comments for his "Weakened at Bernie's" post:
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 09:59 PM
Jan 2016

1st:

The claim that breaking up the big banks and Glass-Steagall restoration are the "be all and end all" of Sanders's plan is simply false. They are very important elements, but other important elements are the financial transactions tax, the anti-usury law and the overhaul of the ratings services.


2nd:
Iraq was a "special time"? Some of us regarded it as a test of conviction -- the moment when you find out who people really are. It's these "special and awful" times which determine the future.

And how long, again, did it take Hillary (who also regards Mubarek as a "friend of our family&quot , to repudiate that vote? Or sort of repudiate that vote? And this is looking good for American foreign policy?

As for single-payer -- what confidence it must take, to prefer a failed and expensive system to one proven by the rest of the world to work, for half or a third of what ours costs us.

With this kind of defeatist Democratic leadership, who's going to come out to vote?

If nothing else, this election period demonstrates once again that while Republicans fear their base, Democrats despise theirs.


3rd:
Hello Dr. Krugman. I am a Sanders supporter through the primaries, but largely to push Hillary to the left. I know she's supremely capable and realistic, but also that she gets a lot of money from people/corporations whose influence on policy has hollowed out the middle class. The message behind the massive support for Bernie is that it's time for the Democratic party to represent people, not corporations, and not the .1%.


Searched the top comments for "crook", "shill", or "crony", but didn't find any hits. But of course, why deal with substantive criticism from the majority when you can cherry pick comments from a couple individuals to paint supporters in a bad light?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
2. Bernie's particular single payer plan is, of course, based on fantasy accounting.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 12:26 PM
Jan 2016

You don't have to go back far to find Krugman saying good things about single payer -- he said the same thing in the piece where he criticized Bernie's plan. It's too bad that instead of offering something realistic, Bernie decided to go for magic unicorns.

What Bernie fans don't understand is that just because something is called "single payer" doesn't mean it automatically is going to work.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
20. Good. Now all we need is for Bernie to come up with a plan that's not
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:06 PM
Jan 2016

based on magic unicorn funding.

Bohunk68

(1,364 posts)
129. Been reading you for several years.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 07:13 PM
Jan 2016

You are usually much better than this remark, this is declasse.

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
37. Really
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:21 PM
Jan 2016

And why couldn't they? After all, according to YOUR version of Krugman's opinion, it only took him overnight to review it.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
123. Certainly more than agree with Clinton's "plan"?. Of course those that support the American
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:34 PM
Jan 2016

Aristocracy would hate a plan from The People. The Corporations all love HRC and despise progressives.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
114. Where is this marvelous report to be found?
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 04:38 PM
Jan 2016

Bernie's detailed plan I mean..and more importantly where can I see these 170 positive reviews of Bernie's detailed plan?

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
28. It works just fine in other countries, why not in America?
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jan 2016

The Unicorn is believing Hillary is not influenced by all of the money she takes in by plutocrats/corporations/Wall Street!

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
29. There are no countries on Bernie's plan.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:13 PM
Jan 2016

Bernie's plan is one week old. And no foreign countries have adapted it yet.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
41. find a western democracy that does not have single payer
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:25 PM
Jan 2016

Team No We Can't must believe in American Unexceptional-ism

$9.3 million in honoraria for speeches before groups associated with health care,
and $3.4 million for speeches paid for by groups in the drug, device, and insurance industries
must have "educated" her.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
44. Holland. Germany.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:29 PM
Jan 2016

Also, just because something is called "single payer" doesn't mean it automatically is going to work. Krugman is a supporter of single payer, but Bernie's particular plan is fantasy, as he correctly points out. Bernie isn't leveling with the public.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
83. Just talked to my family in Germany, and
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:08 PM
Jan 2016

they say that

75-85% are on the government insurance (AOK),

most of the rest are on so called "duty insurance",
which is heavily controlled by the government,

and only the very wealthy are on private insurance
plans.

The point is to eliminate as much as possible the
for profit insurances and to increase the pool of
patients.

I am sure that Bernie's plan will mature with a lot
of input, but to just poopoo it is ridiculous.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
85. Like I said, not single payer.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:12 PM
Jan 2016

It's a mandate program, like Obamacare, with a public option. More government involvement -- in the US only about 50% of healthcare spending is by the government.

DUbeornot2be

(367 posts)
122. Hey...
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:33 PM
Jan 2016

...so Hillary has been paid 43 cents per uninsured American by insurance and healthcare monopolies to help assure we stay that way? It's all beginning to make cents...

I preter magic unicorns to sold out corporate shills...



Chef Eric

(1,024 posts)
49. They don't need to be.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jan 2016

At least not the countries whose healthcare systems Sanders has spoken favorably about.

That's because they've already got got good systems... even better than what the ACA provides for us.

And we need one too.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
52. I agree we need a good system. So does Krugman.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:32 PM
Jan 2016

That's why Krugman is pointing out that Bernie's plan won't work. Because we need something that will.

paleotn

(17,911 posts)
108. Ummm....horse shit.....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 04:09 PM
Jan 2016

oh, that's just fantasy accounting. Ok, exactly what part is fantasy accounting? What exactly is magic unicorns? Give some details, if you can, instead of the usual, broad brush, insurance industry propaganda bullshit.

Jarqui

(10,123 posts)
9. This quote gets me:
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 12:50 PM
Jan 2016

"The savings from a single-payer system would probably exceed $200 billion a year, far more than the cost of covering all of those now uninsured. " Krugman quote from above.

I'm a little fixated on and still very upset about this:
Facts on Deaths Due to Lack of Health Insurance in US
http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/
Sorry folks, I just can't and won't let go of it. Tens of thousands of Americans are dying each year without healthcare.

From the above, not being able to cover these dying Americans isn't an issue in terms of not having the money with single payer to cover everybody. US citizens have to continue to die without US healthcare because Wall Street wants the additional healthcare profits more than they want the dying US citizens and US politicians find that making an effort for these dying US citizens is not "pragmatic".

For my own clarity, I am missing anything here?

sammythecat

(3,568 posts)
117. Bernie's "a little fixated on and still very upset about this" as well
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:08 PM
Jan 2016

and he's determined to fix it, one way or another. Whether it's his current plan, a revised plan, a later plan, or whatever. His goal is to make sure not one single American will ever again have to die because they don't have adequate health coverage. All Americans, regardless of income will have the health care they need because it is a basic right, not a privilege.

Hillary wants "affordable" health insurance. That means if you have a lot, you'll get a lot. If you only have a little, you'll get little. If you've got nothing, you can beg and hope for charity, if you're noticed. Meanwhile big insurance, pharma, etc. will continue, as before, accumulating vast fortunes so they can keep listening to half-million dollar speeches at their parties.

Jarqui

(10,123 posts)
125. I know we can count on Bernie to try to help them
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 06:05 PM
Jan 2016

What bugs me is the folks like Krugman (who I usually like) or Hillary or so many others and the GOP, they don't even mention this when justifying their position. Maybe that's because they can't and take the position they do but Democrats shouldn't be leaving these people high and dry because their dying is "pragmatic".

Government of the people by the people for the people should take care of these people. I'm having a hard time reconciling where letting these people die from a lack of healthcare fits with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" Dying from a lack of healthcare doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Who knows what Hillary really wants because she'll flip on a dime and she'll lie (which as a point of order, violates the charter of the Democratic Party
http://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.democrats.org/Downloads/DNC_Charter__Bylaws_9.17.15.pdf
"we pledge ourselves to open, honest endeavor"
That's the problem with assessing her policies. She lies or deceives so frequently, you know some of them are lies but you have no way of knowing for sure which ones.

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
15. Breaking: It's 2016, not 2007 and you and Bernie don't seem to understand that we've
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jan 2016

expended a major healthcare initiative in the intervening years, did you not realize that? Why do so many Bernie supporters seem to have some issues with figuring out what the date is?

TIME TO PANIC

(1,894 posts)
24. If we could do it then, we can do it now.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:11 PM
Jan 2016

This whole myth about Bernie wanting to do away with the ACA before everyone is covered is a disingenuous lie.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
27. Breaking: Krugman was arguing for single payer (or public option) during that debate
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jan 2016

Now the same concept is suddenly unworkable?

One of those things that make one say "hmmmmmm"

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
32. I have to laugh at you. Nothing has fundamentally changed in regards to laws of economics....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jan 2016

...in the past nine years.

And if you aren't for Single Payer or at least a Public Option...how can you call yourself anything more than a pro health insurance company pro pharmaceutical company corporatist?

The ACA has a lot of good in it but it still basically preserves the status quo of corporate profits at the expense of everyone else.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
95. I know the fucking date.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:35 PM
Jan 2016

And on this date, EVERY 1st Nation on the Planet provides Health Care for ALL of it's people except ONE.

Care to guess which Nation it is that is the OUTLIER on this date, smartguy?


Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
101. The one thing that is constant is Krugman being a hack who says whatever is needed to bolster
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 03:20 PM
Jan 2016

his side of the establishment. That man doesn't have a principled bone in his body.

ejbr

(5,856 posts)
17. Does Krugman 2.0
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:05 PM
Jan 2016

recognize that Obamacare was a different animal when proposed in 2008? Or does he have any suggestions on how to improve Bernie's plan or should we just let people suffer and die and focus on others things?

elljay

(1,178 posts)
23. Krugman
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:10 PM
Jan 2016

Gets it right, more often than not. I keep waiting for the Republicans and corporatists to find throw own two Nobel Prize Laureates to challenge Krugman and Steiglitz. Hasn't happened- wonder
why...

K&R


 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
26. Most Excellent OP! Maybe Mr. Krugman needs to reboot his calculator
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:12 PM
Jan 2016

cuz it's been going haywire the past several years.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
30. I wonder which category the current vrsion of Krugman falls into?
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:14 PM
Jan 2016

"based either on deliberate misrepresentation of what that option would mean, or on remarkably thorough misunderstanding of the concept"

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
35. Oh, this is rich...thank you for this thread, BaC!
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:18 PM
Jan 2016

What happened to Krugman? Or should I say; who got to him?

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
40. It's times like this I truly LOVE the internet.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:25 PM
Jan 2016

The internet never forgets.

Awesome.

Looks like Krugman had a change of heart.... wonder whyyyyyyyyyy

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
42. Your 2007 articles are not breaking....he's changed his mind 1/23/16
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:26 PM
Jan 2016

Krugman ( new Jan 23rd)- Wonks and Minions

What’s really funny is that neither Mike nor I, nor, I think, any of the other wonks-turned-evil-minions have changed positions. Most of us argued long before there was a Sanders candidacy that the focus on Glass-Steagall and too-big-to-fail was misguided. In fact, I argued that position very early in the Obama years, at the same time I was arguing for temporary nationalization of a couple of big banks. I argued for an Obamacare-like strategy on health care, with perhaps a very gradual transition to single-payer via the public option, in my book The Conscience of a Liberal; and most of the progressive health care experts I can think of adopted pretty much the same position. So nobody should be surprised that a candidate who appears to be disregarding the analysis that led to these positions is coming in for some criticism.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/wonks-and-minions/?smid=tw-nytimeskrugman&smtyp=cur

The same gradual changes Hillary has been promoting.
According to the Huffington Post, in March 2014 Clinton said, "she supports Obamacare, and opposes single-payer health insurance."[13]

https://ballotpedia.org/2016_presidential_candidates_on_healthcare

paleotn

(17,911 posts)
110. And irony is lost upon you as well....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 04:19 PM
Jan 2016

...can't seem to cut through that 3rd way, corporatist propaganda, can you.

Then again, what's actually best for the country may not be in your personal financial best interests. If that's actually the case, my response is...tough shit. Go sell buggy whips or pound sand. Your choice.

kjones

(1,053 posts)
126. The words just don't mean much anymore
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 06:28 PM
Jan 2016

I mean, what qualifies as "corporatist" to you guys boils down to whether or not they support
your guy.

Praise for any takers on endorsing him, vilification for anyone else.
(Mix in some sexist snark or white condescension every so often
for safe measure)

All I know is, I don't want an angry president who complains about
everything, I want one that actually gets things done.
Results over rhetoric.

Still voting for Bernie if he gets the nomination somehow.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
80. You and he can't spin this.....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:04 PM
Jan 2016

"The alternative would be single-payer, aka Medicare for all: a payroll tax on everyone, and a government insurance program for everyone. Wouldn’t that be simpler, easier to administer, and more efficient? Yes, it would."

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
43. Kicked and recommended to the Max!
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:27 PM
Jan 2016
"In a way, this is the flip side of the persistent belief that the free market can cure healthcare, even though there are no places where it actually has..."

This is the key element that everyone is missing. Free market, for profit health care bankrupts and kills. We have the entire rest of the developed world to compare to. They all do better on cost by a wide margin and meet or exceed the USA in quality.

Krugman has only changed his mind because he is now in the Hillary camp. It seems everyone has their price except Bernie.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
46. Krugman still thinks single payer would be a good thing, he just knows it's not politically viable.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:30 PM
Jan 2016

In case you haven't noticed, the Republican hold on Congress is a lot stronger now than it was 8 years ago.

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
53. So? Give up on the truth because Republicans TEMPORARILY own the House and the Senate?
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jan 2016

I think a lot of us are tired of weak and feeble Democrats who don't stand up for what they believe in.

And believe or not, being weak and feeble is not a good way to sway voters and win elections.

Finally, chasing short term gain for long term loss is how we ended up with this rightward shift in this country.

I would rather stand on the right side of history.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
54. hee hee Nicely done BreadandCircus, nicely done. I respect Krugman yet his positions of late
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jan 2016

seem to fall into the play it safe category. K&R

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
66. You Bernie supporters give me whiplash....just yesterday, last week you all hated Krugman
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:45 PM
Jan 2016

And he thought so too, as of his blog just yesterday:

And the response of some — only some — Sanders supporters is disappointing, although I guess predictable given that somewhat similar things happened during the 2008 primary. There will, I guess, always be some people who, having made an emotional commitment to a candidate, can’t accept the proposition that someone might share their values but honestly disagree with the candidate’s approach.

Right now I’m getting the kind of correspondence I usually get from Rush Limbaugh listeners, although this time it’s from the left — I’m a crook, I’m a Hillary crony, etc., etc.. OK, been there before — back in 2008 I was even the subject of tales about my son working for the Clintons, which was surprising because I don’t have a son.

But I’m used to this stuff. It’s a bit more shocking to see Mike Konczal — one of our most powerful advocates of financial reform, heroic critic of austerity, and a huge resource for progressives — attacked as one of Hillary’s minions and an ally of the financial industry.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/wonks-and-minions/?smid=tw-nytimeskrugman&smtyp=cur

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
73. I don't hate him, I said I respect him even though I don't agree with him.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:52 PM
Jan 2016

Where he is coming from politically is up to him, and it
smacks of play it safe, vote for Clinton.

I can appreciate that, no one wants to see it get worse and it could
under any Republican...thus my respect for him even though I don't
agree with him on this health care issue and as the OP points out very
well, he really doesn't disagree with me.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
128. Hated? Overreact much? A stopped clock is right twice a day, and I don't hate it when it's wrong.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 07:01 PM
Jan 2016

lark

(23,091 posts)
74. Actually, he's not recommending Single Payer immediately.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 01:52 PM
Jan 2016

Did you read the last line? He says we should go "Demoplan, with public and private options", with the end goal, DOWN THE ROAD, being private payer. So, not, he's not recommending Bernie's plan as a legislative goal in the near future.

 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
115. In light of two quoted statements up thread (Hilary and Krugman), you simply make up shit
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 04:41 PM
Jan 2016

And attemp to pass it off as something with a basis in reality.

Op failure followed up with a mother failure of a post.

paleotn

(17,911 posts)
119. Failure my arse....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:25 PM
Jan 2016

....I'll believe it when I see it, given the fact that HRC and the Clinton foundation has accepted millions from the insurance industry. Out of the kindness of their little corporate hearts, I sure. No services rendered for payment, I'm sure. You do realize that true single payer for all will destroy the health insurance industry as we know it? Or do you simply ignore that inconvenient fact.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
90. Sent a coworker Krugmans article from yesterday
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:18 PM
Jan 2016

where he scolds Bernie supporters for being too idealistic. His response: "What a crock. By that line of thiking we should have just played it safe and remained a British colony."

Interesting that Krugman now thinks single payer is too idealistic. Pretty disillusioned hearing any democrat argue against affordable college education and single payer.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
98. Things are kinda flippy floppy over in Camp Weathervane.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 02:44 PM
Jan 2016

I used to hold a high opinion of Krugman.

Now?

Just another worthless fucking sellout. Apparently greed trumps smarts over there.

Shame on you Paul.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
99. Krugman- Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 03:13 PM
Jan 2016

I trust Prof. Krugman on this http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/weakened-at-bernies/?_r=0


On health care: leave on one side the virtual impossibility of achieving single-payer. Beyond the politics, the Sanders “plan” isn’t just lacking in detail; as Ezra Klein notes, it both promises more comprehensive coverage than Medicare or for that matter single-payer systems in other countries, and assumes huge cost savings that are at best unlikely given that kind of generosity. This lets Sanders claim that he could make it work with much lower middle-class taxes than would probably be needed in practice.

To be harsh but accurate: the Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan, which relies on fantasies about huge supply-side effects to make the numbers supposedly add up. Only a little bit: after all, this is a plan seeking to provide health care, not lavish windfalls on the rich — and single-payer really does save money, whereas there’s no evidence that tax cuts deliver growth. Still, it’s not the kind of brave truth-telling the Sanders campaign pitch might have led you to expect.

Again, as noted by Prof. Krugman this plan does not add up.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
152. The Krugman commenting on what purports to be the Sanders plan
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 12:14 AM
Jan 2016

As noted by Ezra Klein, this plan is really poorly done. Ezra Klein is not impressed http://www.vox.com/2016/1/17/10784528/bernie-sanders-single-payer-health-care


On Sunday night, mere hours before the fourth Democratic debate, Sanders tried to head off Clinton's attacks by releasing his plan. Only what he released isn't a plan. It is, to be generous, a gesture towards a future plan.

To be less generous — but perhaps more accurate — this is a document that lets Sanders say he has a plan, but doesn't answer the most important questions about how his plan would work, or what it would mean for most Americans. Sanders is detailed and specific in response to the three main attacks Clinton has launched, but is vague or unrealistic on virtually every other issue. The result is that he answers Clinton's criticisms while raising much more profound questions about his own ideas.

Sanders promises his health care system will cover pretty much everything while costing the average American almost nothing, and he relies mainly on vague "administrative" savings and massive taxes on the rich to make up the difference. It's everything critics fear a single payer plan would be, and it lacks the kind of engagement with the problems of single-payer health systems necessary to win over skeptics.....

In the absence of these kinds of specifics, Sanders has offered a puppies-and-rainbows approach to single-payer — he promises his plan will cover everything while costing the average family almost nothing. This is what Republicans fear liberals truly believe: that they can deliver expansive, unlimited benefits to the vast majority of Americans by stacking increasingly implausible, and economically harmful, taxes on the rich. Sanders is proving them right.

A few days ago, I criticized Hillary Clinton for not leveling with the American people. She seemed, I wrote, "scared to tell voters what she really thinks for fear they'll disagree." Here, Sanders shows he doesn't trust voters either. Rather than making the trade-offs of a single-payer plan clear, he's obscured them further. In answering Clinton's criticisms, he's raised real concerns about the plausibility of his own ideas.

This is Ezra's area and he is not impressed

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
163. Bernie Sanders's fiction-filled campaign
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:28 AM
Jan 2016

Tell the Washington Post that these numbers have been debunked https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bernie-sanderss-fiction-filled-campaign/2016/01/27/cd1b2866-c478-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html

Mr. Sanders’s story continues with fantastical claims about how he would make the European social model work in the United States. He admits that he would have to raise taxes on the middle class in order to pay for his universal, Medicare-for-all health-care plan, and he promises massive savings on health-care costs that would translate into generous benefits for ordinary people, putting them well ahead, on net. But he does not adequately explain where those massive savings would come from. Getting rid of corporate advertising and overhead would only yield so much. Savings would also have to come from slashing payments to doctors and hospitals and denying benefits that people want.

He would be a braver truth-teller if he explained how he would go about rationing health care like European countries do. His program would be more grounded in reality if he addressed the fact of chronic slow growth in Europe and explained how he would update the 20th-century model of social democracy to accomplish its goals more efficiently. Instead, he promises large benefits and few drawbacks.

Meanwhile, when asked how Mr. Sanders would tackle future deficits, as he would already be raising taxes for health-care expansion and the rest of his program, his advisers claimed that more government spending “will result in higher growth, which will improve our fiscal situation.” This resembles Republican arguments that tax cuts will juice the economy and pay for themselves — and is equally fanciful.

The Washington Post is agreeing with Prof. Krugman's analysis

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
149. It is not jibberish
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 12:09 AM
Jan 2016

GOP tax cut plans use imaginary growth and tax revenues to pay for themselves. Recent tax cuts show that this growth is never as high as projected. Sanders health care plan use cost savings that are uncertain at best and may never materialize when the plan is adopted.

Hekate

(90,645 posts)
104. Krugman also says the candidate with the best economic plans is...Hillary. She's very detailed....
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 03:49 PM
Jan 2016

She doesn't just say she'll do this or that, she fleshes it out on paper, and yes, has experience.

And I know this is hard for some to grasp emotionally, but health care, like everything else in life including clean air to breathe, costs money. Where does it come from? How does it get allocated? How do you get your proposals thru a GOP Congress?

The Nobelist Economist is a liberal. He even wrote a book called The Conscience of a Liberal. So of course he is bound to like the heart of Bernie's ideas. But Paul Krugman is also a wonk who wants to see things get done. I have a feeling that in all those snippets of articles there is a great big "But."

So we return to his assessment of Hillary.....who is a policy wonk.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
107. These are old comments.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jan 2016

He's endorsing Hillary now. So, what is he saying today about single payer or public option?

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,110 posts)
120. totally misleading title.
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 05:29 PM
Jan 2016

Krugman:

Again, I say this as someone who favors single-payer — but it’s just not going to happen anytime soon.


Of course single payer would be the ideal, but ...

Krugman:

Put it this way: for all the talk about being honest and upfront, even Sanders ended up delivering mostly smoke and mirrors — or as Ezra Klein says, puppies and rainbows. Despite imposing large middle-class taxes, his “gesture toward a future plan”, as Ezra puts it, relies on the assumption of huge cost savings. If you like, it involves a huge magic asterisk.


Electing either Sanders or Trump would leave us not just vulnerable to losing all gains, it would seal the deal. Trump supporters are even louder than Bernie supporters and are quite selfish. And it would take a miracle to achieve single payer with the only democratic Socialist no longer in the Senate.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
139. He also said that on financial reform, the differences between Clinton and Sanders were trivial and
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 10:14 PM
Jan 2016

that it probably didn't matter which one wins (back in October). Now that Sanders has risen in the polls he says that Sanders' position on financial reform is "disturbing." One can't help but get the sense that he was punting with "they're both great" when he assumed Clinton would win, but is now talking about how problematic Sanders is now that he's risen in the polls. Also worth pointing out that he was in favor of Glass-Steagall (in the 10/16/15 column), but now (in the 1/19/16 blog post) says Glass-Steagall could cause us more problems.

Hard to tell at this point what things he actually believes, which things he says he believes because he thinks it hurts a particular candidate, and which things he theoretically believes but is ready to do a 180 and attack as soon as someone actually proposes we do them.

Bernblu

(441 posts)
148. Debating Krugmans
Sat Jan 23, 2016, 11:16 PM
Jan 2016

Perhaps, should splice some video together so we could see a debate between Paul Krugman 2007 and Paul Krugman 2016.

 

november3rd

(1,113 posts)
154. Too Bad ...
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 02:13 AM
Jan 2016

Too bad none of those quotations are dated 2015 or 2016.

Now Krugman sits in the Clinton camp, below that mountain that's too steep to climb: Medicare for All.

The Green Manalishi

(1,054 posts)
155. May anyone against single payer and medicare for all
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 04:28 AM
Jan 2016

Die. Of something horrible. After watching their family do so.

I don't believe in anything supernatural. If I did, I would wish the nastiest of diseases on anyone opposing healthcare for all.

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)
156. Erm, the public option and mandates and all that...
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 04:33 AM
Jan 2016

...was and continues to be the path to single payer. That was the entire fucking point back then. Whole studies done on this, whole debates, whole policy proposals, drafts, meetings, committees.

That was the point of Obamacare.

Krugman literally just wrote a blog post saying as much.

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