Is Bernie Sanders a 'Libertarian Socialist?'

[MineralMan]

His vote with Rand Paul on the "Audit the Fed" bill was interesting. On that bill, he voted differently than most Democrats in the Senate. Looking at the bill, itself, it's interesting to see what was included in it.

By aligning himself with this bill and the Republicans who also supported it, he ventured away from his usual vote with the Democratic caucus. Attacking the Fed is general among Libertarians, of which Rand Paul is clearly a part.

That vote was an interesting one, in light of his run for the Democratic nomination for President. Democrats managed to keep the bill from passing, despite the Republican majority in the Senate. The bill failed to get the 60 votes required, thanks in part to votes by Democrats Bernie Sanders and Tammy Baldwin, the only two Democrats voting with Rand Paul and the Republicans.

Frankly, I'm not expert enough on issues about the Fed, so I'm not really well-equipped to judge the actual language of the bill. I still find it interesting that only two Democrats in the Senate voted for it, though.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of why the Senate Democrats blocked the bill could explain it in more detail.

[Autumn]

1. A Democratic Socialist. But you knew that

nice try though.

[MineralMan]

4. Well, some believe that Hillary isn't really a Democrat.

I can ask this question on the same grounds. It isn't necessarily what someone says they are that is accurate, it seems.

But you knew that.

[VulgarPoet]

9. Well hey. I have a difficult time believing a warhawk is a Democrat.

Unless the meaning of "Democrat" changed in the last 30 years, that is.

[Autumn]

19. A centrist is a blue dog Hillary is a centrist and a war hawk

So there is that. These posst this morning lead me to believe that the shit they threw at Bernie yesterday fell to the floor to be trampled into dust.

[VulgarPoet]

44. If it looks like a hawk and walks like a hawk...

[Ed Suspicious]

53. If Hillary disapproved of gays, immigrants, and woman a she would be,

for all intents and purposes, a Republican.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. I hope so.

I am.

[Cheese Sandwich]

29. I voted for Obama because they said he was a secret communist

You can imagine my disappointment.

[beam me up scottie]

3. Behold! A new meme is born!

As the smell of desperation wafts through the air...

[MineralMan]

6. Wow! I've never actually started a new meme.

I didn't know I was influential enough to do that.

[beam me up scottie]

8. I don't think this one will gain any traction.

But you'll get lots of attention for a day.

[morningfog]

13. You aren't.

[MineralMan]

16. Good. That's a relief.

I guess I can continue asking questions that interest me then, without worrying about being a "meme-maker."

[99th_Monkey]

5. Oh Noes!!! Now that's really Scary!!

[MineralMan]

7. Apparently, Libertarian Socialism actually exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

[beam me up scottie]

11. Did you read it?

Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[1][2] left-libertarianism[3][4] and socialist libertarianism[5]) is a group of anti-authoritarian[6] political philosophies inside the socialist movement that rejects socialism as centralized state ownership and control of the economy,[7] as well as the state itself.[8] It criticizes wage labour relationships within the workplace,[9] instead emphasizing workers' self-management of the workplace[8] and decentralized structures of political organization,[10] asserting that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[11] Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy and federal or confederal associations[12] such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, and workers' councils.[13][14] All of this is generally done within a general call for libertarian[15] and voluntary human relationships[16] through the identification, criticism, and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of human life.[17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24]

If Bernie was a libertarian socialist I think he would call himself a libertarian socialist instead of a democratic socialist, don't you?

[MineralMan]

18. I did. Sounds like a fit to some degree, doesn't it?

[beam me up scottie]

33. As much as Hillary fits Republicanism to a degree. As you know Bernie is a democratic socialist:

Democratic socialism

In contemporary political discourse, "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with social democracy.
Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy with social ownership of the means of production. Sometimes used synonymously with "socialism", the adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish itself from the Marxist-Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic.[1]

Democratic socialism is distinguished from both the Soviet model of centralized socialism and from social democracy, where "social democracy" refers to support for political democracy, regulation of the capitalist economy, and a welfare state.[2] The distinction with the former is made on the basis of the authoritarian form of government and centralized economic system that emerged in the Soviet Union during the 20th century,[3] while the distinction with the latter is made on the basis that democratic socialism is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while social democracy is not.[4] That is, whereas social democrats only seek to "humanize" capitalism through state intervention, democratic socialists see capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of freedom, equality and solidarity; and believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by superseding private ownership with some form of social ownership. Ultimately democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only cause more problems to emerge elsewhere in the economy, that capitalism can never be sufficiently "humanized", and therefore it must ultimately be replaced by socialism.[5][6]

Democratic socialism is not specifically revolutionary or reformist, as many types of democratic socialism can fall into either category, with some forms overlapping with social democracy.[7] Some forms of democratic socialism accept social democratic reformism to gradually convert the capitalist economy to a socialist one using pre-existing democratic institutions, while other forms are revolutionary in their political orientation and advocate for the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the capitalist economy.[8]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

But why take his word for it when you can try to pigeonhole him into another label, amirite?

Goes nicely with today's theme of red baiting.

[VulgarPoet]

47. Cold war blinders in full effect

I'm giving it three days before more anti-Semitic posts show up personally

[beam me up scottie]

51. The red baiting / anti-Semitism is escalating.

The new rumours about Bernie being an atheist are proof of that.

A shame it's coming from so called liberals but after the racist 2008 campaign nothing surprises me anymore.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. It's been around a long time.

[guillaumeb]

10. The name notwithstanding, the Federal Reserve is actually a group of large private

banks. I agree with Sanders and Baldwin that more oversight is needed. Fed policies, in my view, serve the rich at the expense of everyone else. A prime example is "quantitative easing" a deceptive term at best. This policy is better described as more bailouts for the banking thieves.

[litlbilly]

12. They thought long and hard to come up with this one:)

[MineralMan]

14. Who are "they?"

I came up with it all on my own in this post. Are others asking the same question?

[frylock]

62. Them.

[ljm2002]

69. "Are others asking the same question?"

Keep going, MM. The slime is getting deeper.

[VulgarPoet]

17. Looks like after the mess of wharrgarbl yesterday, they're hiring professional spinners.

eom

[MineralMan]

20. So, to whom should I send an invoice, do you think?

[AgingAmerican]

22. You'll never tell...

[VulgarPoet]

25. You mean to tell me this isn't fresh off the press from the Establishment ($)ain't group?

Huh. Color me shocked.

[MineralMan]

27. Not as far as I know. It's fresh from my

ancient, fevered brain.

[AgingAmerican]

21. Keep grasping

You might get a straw eventually...

[MineralMan]

23. As long as I can, I will.

When I can no longer grasp, it'll be time for the crematorium for me. My gripping hand is still doing fine, though, for now.

[AgingAmerican]

24. We agree

[DanTex]

26. The Audit the Fed movement is a loony libertarian thing, and I don't know why Bernie supports it.

There are two important points. First, the Fed is supposed to act independently of congress, in order to shield it from political pressures. Otherwise, when the president or the people in control are coming for election, they will cut rates in order to cause a short-term boom, making people happy right before the election. This bill effectively gives congress more power over the Fed, reducing their independence.

The other thing is, libertarians don't think the Fed should exist, or at least not do anything. They think that we should be on the gold standard, and failing that, they want the least amount of monetary policy as possible. They are always afraid of phantom inflation, and they don't think that monetary stimulus should be used during recessions, because according to them that's what messes everything up. It's totally absurd and nobody believes that, even people like Milton Friedman, but today's hardcore libertarians do. Auditing the Fed was always Ron Paul's dream, as a means of reducing the Fed's power and its independence.

[MineralMan]

32. His vote puzzled me, frankly.

I'm not sure why he voted that way, really. I remain puzzled.

[DanTex]

37. Probably he thinks there's too much closeness between the Fed and Wall Street, and he's probably

right. Although he's might also be buying a little into some of those wacky monetary theories out there that say the Fed is at the root of some big conspiracy.

Basically, the Fed sets interest rates. Yes, it's a hugely powerful and important decision, but there's nothing else sinister going on.

[MineralMan]

40. That seems to be what the Fed does, doesn't it.

Keeping those interest rates low appears to have helped the economy recover, it seems to me. I can't object to that. It didn't help me, since I lost all of my retirement savings thanks to GWB and his nifty recession. The modest recovery, though, has enabled me to keep working, since my small business clients appear to be encouraged enough to pay for work on their websites.

The economy seems to be centered around corporations and banking. I don't see any change coming in that on the horizon, really.

[DanTex]

43. Yup. In fact, in ordinary times, it only sets one interest rate -- the Federal Funds rate.

Recently they've been tweaking farther into the rate curve with QE and "Twist" and all that. The right-wing was really mad about that, predicting runaway hyperinflation for about 7 years running now. For example, when Rick Perry said he wanted to take Bernanke out back and shoot him for printing money, what he was really saying was that he wanted interest rates to be higher.

Thing is, inflation has stayed near zero, and it's been fun watching right-wing pundits and economists eat their predictions. Krugman likes pointing them out -- one of the funniest was some guy who predicted dangerous inflation, which never happened, but he claimed that he was still right because the "risk of inflation" had happened without the actual inflation. LOL.



Sorry to hear about your retirement savings, hopefully some of it came back.

[NCTraveler]

28. It's what I have been thinking. Nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. No.

[MineralMan]

34. Well, OK, then...

I'll have to take your word for it, I suppose.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

67. You asked. I answered.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

70. To follow up:

Is Bernie Sanders....

a black Baptist preacher?
an Olympic gold-medal winner in the luge competition?
a cephalopod?
a quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers?
the inventor of the Post-It Note?
the second-chair oboist with the New York Philharmonic?
the name of Han Solo's spacecraft?

The answers to your question and the above questions are all equally no, and the same amount of explanation is required.

[gyroscope]

31. Non-partisan issue

how any democrat with any integrity could say no to more govt transparency is beyond me.

[MineralMan]

35. Apparently that bill was not a non-partisan one.

Republicans voted for it. Democrats, except for two, voted against it. Perhaps there's more to that bill than you or I understand. Both of my Senators voted against it. I trust both of them.

It's puzzling to me that Rand Paul, who I loathe, and Bernie Sanders, who I like OK, voted for it. I wish I understood why he voted with the Republican caucus, rather than the Democratic caucus. As an independent Senator, that is his right, of course, but I still don't understand that vote, which is why I raised the question.

Do you have an answer for me?

[gyroscope]

45. Good question

rather puzzling because one would expect the democrats (or at least the more liberal ones) to be for something like this and repubs against. There really aren't many liberal dems in the Senate so that could explain the near unanimous democratic opposition to the bill and perhaps Rand Paul somehow talked his side into supporting it by framing it in libertarian terms.

[elias49]

36. This is guilt by association

esp because just about anything that slogs through Congress these days is hundreds of pages, loaded with amendments...
I sure don't know enough about the subject to opine about Sanders' motive. But until I/we know WHY he voted as he did,
I think it's a bit unfair to imply he's may be kind-of libertarian given that venomous hatred of all things 'Libertarian'.

[pinebox]

38. I don't know about that

but keep in mind that Hillary voted for Patriot Act TWICE and she has defended NSA crap.

[VulgarPoet]

50. .

The Patriot Act, SOPA, PIPA, TPP, basically everything to ratfuck the American people. But you know she's not a republican!!!!!!

[demmiblue]

39. No.

[Todays_Illusion]

41. I thought it was an odd vote, but Sanders is to libertarianism as Dick Cheny is to peace.

[Cheese Sandwich]

42. He's not one, although he is probably influenced by some ideas from that tradition.

The new left "hippie" socialism had a lot of libertarian socialist influences. It's an anti-authoritarian, anti-bureaucratic tendency within the socialist tradition, rejecting USSR style systems for example.

We might see some of the influence in Bernie when it comes to wanting to end the war on drugs, and end the federal prohibition on marijuana, for example. When he talks about ending mass incarceration. In his votes against the NDAA and the Patriot Act, and concern for internet freedom.

But by and large the libertarian socialist tradition does not look to political campaigns as a way to achieve goals. It's an anti-state tendency. Roughly speaking it means anarchism. Libertarian socialists more likely want to see community organizing and workplace organizing to create organizations that can challenge the power of the capitalist state. That's not Bernie's strategy at all.

His tradition is more parliamentary socialism or social democracy. He wants to reform capitalism by participating in the political system.

But these traditions overlap a little. Chomsky is a well known anarchist who supports Sanders. While Murray Bookchin, a well known libertarian socialist from Vermont, couldn't stand Bernie Sanders.

[MineralMan]

48. Thanks for the information.

[Cheese Sandwich]

56. Although the terms really aren't strictly defined. So if we define libertarian socialism as any

democratic socialism that highly values individual liberty, which could be another reasonable definition, then yes I guess Bernie could be one. He's certainly got some tendencies like that.

[mmonk]

46. Of course. An opposite of himself. Makes so much sense.

Kind of like a communist capitalist, a Nazi Rabbi or a KKK Civil Rights leader. Word salad games are fun.

[Fumesucker]

49. Sanders is a "small l" libertarian, a believer in civil liberties as well as civil rights

His positions on consenting adult behavior all point to that, both sex and drugs.

[Health Wagon]

52. The better question for you and for Clinton would be..

Is she a Corporate Socialist?

Damn right.

the 1% has excess socialism for the rich. It's time to pay it back.

[restorefreedom]

54. my take...

repubs voted for it because of their "federal govt is bad and lets do anything we can to hamper its function" attitude.

bernie, i believe, voted for it because he believes in strong accountability, regulation, and breaking up the incestuous relationship among the fed, wall street, and many politicians.

rand paul, being a libertarian, probably wants as much limitation as possible on any branch of govt, but only he can say why he supports this particular legislation.

dems, many of whom are on the political/financial gravy train, do not want to mess with the fed or upset the status quo, which benefits them.

this breakdown makes complete sense to me.

[KingCharlemagne]

55. Is Hillary a Rockefeller Republican? - nt

[Rebkeh]

57. Voting for a bill proposed by a libertarian

does not make one a libertarian. No more than Obama pushing for republican ideas (such as Obamacare) suddenly becoming a republican. Everyone, even libertarians, are occasionally right (broken clocks). They are anti-establishment for very different reasons, but the reasons still matter. This is what happens when we get too caught up in labels and party identity. Case in point, the current Democratic party is not exactly democratic anymore. Social issues aside, they no longer represent democratic values and ideals. Not really.

Or unions, the media, even the Church. The membership does not agree with the leadership. It's become a widespread pattern.

[whatchamacallit]

58. MM employs the Fox Question Mark

Didn't wanna figure out how to embed it
http://on.cc.com/1P7AlgR

[Z_California]

59. Cool. A new "scary" label for Bernie.

Hopefully low information voters don't decide the election.

[cali]

60. No. Utterly absurd.

[frylock]

61. The pants-pooping is getting palpable.

#fearthebern

[INdemo]

63. Attack,Attack,Attack

When your candidate is losing you resort to Attacking rather than discussing real issues.
You ae using the Karl Rove,Lee Atwater tactics because whenever they discovered they could not discuss real issues to their advantage they would Attack the opposition.
As it seems the entire Clinton Campaign has taken on this strategy because they are obviously losing.
When was the last time you have heard Hillary talk about real issues in detail? That's right you haven't.
She follows the Karl Rove,Lee Atwter and David Brock tactics and attacks.




MineralMan:
"Frankly, I'm not expert enough on issues about the Fed, so I'm not really well-equipped to judge the actual language of the bill".

[TheBlackAdder]

64. Hold yourself together there MM, this is starting to drift into the realm of fringe thought. nt

[Eric J in MN]

65. The Audit the Fed bill

Currently, the discussion between Fed members when they decide interest rates is secret. Rand Paul's 'Audit the Fed' bill would have made those Fed discussions public.

Some people think the secrecy is a good thing, because it distances the Fed from the political process. They say that we need Fed independence.

Some people think that secrecy is a bad thing, because they often disagree with Fed decisions and want to know what went into them. They're skeptical that Fed independence has been good for the country. The liberal blogger Atrios has expressed that skepticism. Atrios didn't post his opinion on this bill, though.

[Reter]

66. That would be amazing if he was, because that's what I am

Abolish the Federal Reserve and IRS.

[ljm2002]

68. Apparently the more important question today is...

..."does Bernie believes in private ownership of property?" (yes we had an OP asking that very question)

Well, MM, keep on doing your part. Slimy tactics though.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. Depends. Will calling him that save the rapidly disintegrating Clinton campaign?

THIS BERNIE SANDERS DEATH STAR HAS GOT TO HAVE A THERMAL EXHAUST PORT SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!