I'm not OK with this...

[Kber]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2012/02/mitt-romney-mormon-baptism-elie-wiesel-holocaust/1

Holocaust survivor and Nobel Prize winner Elie Wiesel today called on Mitt Romney to tell the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stop doing proxy baptisms in the names of dead Jews, including Holocaust victims such as Wiesel's parents.

It's not known whether Romney, a former Mormon bishop and still an active believer, baptized any late Jewish people when he participated in the LDS church's practice.

The Republican presidential candidate's not saying and neither is the LDS Church, according to Huffington Post where Andrea Stone is tracking the story.


"I think it's scandalous. Not only objectionable, it's scandalous," Wiesel told Stone, who notes:

On Edit for clarity - I'm OK with Elie Wiesel's response, but not the Morman practice or their evasive answers about the practice. Not cool, guys.

[dmallind]

1. If only all religious nuttery were this victimless

The dead are dead and no amount of baptism can harm or offend them. Unlike for example living gays, women, altar boys, nonbelievers and the like.

I can't say I am OK with it either to be honest, but it's pretty way down the list of things to worry about re burgeoning religious impunity.

[unblock]

14. it's about as offensive as pissing on graves.

i suppose in the scheme of things, sure, it's not as offensive some things done directly to the living, but how would you feel if someone pissed on your parent's grave (or imagine a suitable dearly departed relative)?

and your point that the dead can't be harmed or offended is fatuous. the living family members, friends, and others who were close and loved the departed are the ones being tormented by this.

[Skwid]

16. Pardon me for butting in, but I can't imagine why anyone would care about grave pissing...

if someone were to piss on my mom's grave I'd just wonder why they would bother. She isn't down there, it's just some decomposing bones and shit. Before the earth is incinerated by the dying sun every grave on the planet will be pissed on by thousands of critters. Umbrage taken over this is just misdirected religious nonsense and has no basis in rational analysis. Isn't it odd how much angst we can dredge up over any issue that affects "someone else"? It reminds me of the bigots who moan that same-sex marriage will destroy "the institution".

[unblock]

22. YOU may not care, but, seriously, you can't imagine why anyone else might care?

you think EVERYONE should agree that graves are silly and EVERYONE should agree that grave desecration should be legal?

and it's not religious nonsense, it's not even spritual nonsense. people (the living) value graves as remembrances of loved ones and most people, even non-religious, non-spiritual ones don't at all like the idea of other people pissing on the location they go to to remember their loved ones.

i can't believe you don't get this. you're really defending pissing on graves? really?

[Skwid]

25. I've been reading DU posts off and on for years and have seen thousands of them wanting to piss

on the graves of some or other Republican or rightwing person. I guess that's different, though.
I don't believe in the concept of 'desecration' because I do not consider anything 'sacred'...that is just another word for 'holy' which is just bullshit and has no basis in fact.

[unblock]

32. i don't believe in the concept of "sacred" either. but i'm considerate of others' perspectives.

and i think most people would agree with me that the perspectives of the family who buried a loved one matter quite a bit in such matters.

[Enrique]

2. I like the politics of this

I couldn't care less about the substance, but this will make it that much harder for the right-wingers to defend Romney.

[southernyankeebelle]

3. Well I wonder at least for me once you die supposedly your soul leaves the body. It

would be hard for them to catch your soul don't you think. However, that is a horrible practice if they are doing it and I have heard that before. I hope I don't go to hell but I have a feeling I might go to purgatory like alot of my catholic believers. Note for you non-believers I am talking to the believers. LOL

[morningfog]

5. It also puts Romney in an impossible position.

A practicing Mormon is unable to offer any kinds of criticism of the church or church policy. In many respects, the prophet is as infallible to the Mormons as the Pope is to devout Catholics.

They literally believe that the prophet is the mouthpiece of god and that the prophet gets direction from jesus, one-on-one, in the flesh. They can't challenge practice or policy.

I like that this not only exposes the ridiculousness of the religion, but, if pressed, will expose where Romney's actual allegiance is.

[white_wolf]

17. The Prophet is actually more infallible than the Pope.

The Pope can only clarify scripture, whereas the Prophet actually receives revelation from God and can create modern day scripture. I'm not defending the Pope, just saying the Prophet has a bit more authority, simply because he is seen as prophet like Joseph Smith.

[MADem]

9. Excellent point, Enrique! That is something to smile about...! nt

[cthulu2016]

4. I don't see the (real) problem

It's not like they can pull Jewish souls out of Ghenna and into Mormon Heaven, since neither one exists.

Sure, it's in poor taste but really... if I found out that my dead relatives had been auto-baptized by Mormons why would I care?

[qb]

6. This condescending practice is essentially the same as Christians condemning Jews to Hell

for not accepting Jesus as their lord & savior.

[MADem]

8. Two wrongs never make a right, but I don't recall anyone making lists of the condemned in the

Christian end of things, writing names down in books, and so forth--at least not for several centuries, which would suggest that those Christians have at least learned the error of some of their ways. So, while vaguely similar when compared to ancient history, it's not "essentially the same."

There is a question of "personalization" here, and now, in the 21st Century, which amplifies the reprehensible nature of the conduct.

[qb]

12. I guess I wasn't clear: The condescension is essentially the same.

And this view of Jews in some Christian circles is far from ancient history.

[MADem]

13. Fortunately, 'some' is not all, which apparently isn't the case in the Monolithic Mormon Church. nt

[whistler162]

36. No child it isn't.

[treestar]

41. At least it's a little more pleasant in attitude

Rather than consigning them to Hell they baptize them into Heaven. The intent isn't that bad. As for the effect, it's nil. Not worth making into an issue.

[MADem]

7. I thought the Mormons promised to stop doing it, at least to the Jews.

That doesn't mean they'll stop going after other groups.

I agree with Wiesel--it is "scandalous." It's reprehensible. It is intrusive and rude and wrong. It is upsetting to descendants of people whose names are being bandied about in this fashion, and the Mormons should be ashamed of themselves--but somehow, I don't think they believe they are doing anything wrong.

Which is a caution, in and of itself...

[Swamp Lover]

10. I disagree with the practice, it's intent and execution....but....

I also disagree with a politician sticking his nose into a belief system. I could see him leaving the faith, or staying in and trying to change things from within as a participant but political power shoiuld stay out of religion!

[Hippo_Tron]

40. As long as the Republican Party is intent on politicizing religion...

I'm totally content with demanding that their candidates answer for every single belief that their faith holds, ESPECIALLY when it's inconvenient.

But if they're willing to stop shoving their beliefs down my throat, I'm perfectly willing to concede that perhaps this issue should be addressed by church leaders rather than by politicians who happen to be of LDS faith.

[rurallib]

11. Is this the new Republican health care plan?

We take away your health care and you die.
But after you die we do a little voo-doo to get you into (our) heaven.

[RC]

15. This is the same arrogant mind set that the Catholic Church has when

they decided that all women should be denied reproductive health care.
How dare any church decide anything for any non-member? Especially when, not only is it is none of their business, but is an affront to the target group!

[treestar]

42. True but here it has no real effect

The individuals are deceased, and there is no way this really effects them (except in the minds of Mormons). Whereas the Catholic example could affect living people.

I think Wiesel should not have bothered with this - should have ignored it. There are far worse things. This is all merely imaginary.

[Yavapai]

18. Bill Maher had the answer.

When he unbaptized Mitt Romney's dead atheist father-in-law on his show a short while back.

Maybe we should just start "unbaptizing all the Morons! Oops, of course I meant Mormons.

This is hilarious!!!

edited to correct my 3rd grade spelling errors

[K Gardner]

24. Oh my goodness, I split my sides over this on Friday night !! n/t

[anAustralianobserver]

19. I see how it can be a disrespectful practice,

because it can imply that non-Mormons need to be baptised or 'converted', at least to reach the highest areas of Mormon heaven; but it probably also functions neutrally as a social amenity/formality on the other side.

So personally I'd take it as a nice gesture like an honorary degree. They may let me visit some of the cool Mormon planets. The more access to the more heavenly realms the merrier really.

[MrSlayer]

20. At the end of the day, does it really matter?

It's a bizarre thing to do but is utterly meaningless in the long run. It would be no different than me running around a graveyard spraying goat blood and proclaiming everyone buried to now be under the blessing of Tyr.

[anAustralianobserver]

23. Don't diminish the dignity of Tyr. He's probably an elder god now

who's moved on to goat milk offerings.

[Kber]

26. Think of it this way...

Let's say you have a dear relative, maybe your spouse, child or brother, who is murdered because someone took exception to his sexual orientation. (Elie Weisel's father, after all, was murdered by Nazis because he was a Jew, pure and simple.)

But then one of those "pray away the gay" groups comes along and claims that they have rebaptized your brother's soul as straight so he can go to heaven.

Your brother is beyond harm but you, as his loving relative now have other issues to deal with that the original crime, namely that these total strangers have pronounced judgement over his supposed "sin" but not to worry, 'cause it's all fixed now.

Sure, it's silly, crazy, etc. It's also insulting as hell.

You want to baptize my dear departed great aunt who died in her sleep, sure - have at it I guess.

But leave my great grandfather's family - rounded up and gunned down in the forests on Poland specifically for their religion - out of it. They died because they lived as Jews and that's how they would like to be remembered.

Memory is very important to holocaust survivers and they and their families take serious exception to anyone trying to rewrite history.

[CTyankee]

27. Perfect reply. thank you!

[anAustralianobserver]

30. I agree with you that in most cases the practice is at least subconsciously disrespectful,

and in some cases it is overtly disrespectful to Jews and other non-Mormons, and I think your analogy of the baptism of a gay person is a good one.

A point I want to make though is that all religious and spiritual rituals can potentially be performed in a non-harmful (and meaningful) way. The practice, and Mormonism itself isn't inherently wrong or invalid and it will evolve, just as Judaism and Christianity are evolving from their valid beginnings.

I consider myself spiritually universal. I was raised Catholic and I don't accept the authority of the Pope or the Church or the Bible where it conflicts with Common Sense and Reason (which it currently does, conspicuously, much of the time). Among other 'sins', I never go to Confession and rarely go to Mass - so according to many in the Church and the Pope, I shouldn't receive the bread in Communion. But if I feel inclined in the future I will, with a clear conscience; participating in the 'good side' of the ritual.

I don't consider Communion more important than any other religion's ritual, but in saying that I'm not trivialising it - it's the highest, most powerful and most meaningful ritual in Catholicism. One of the reasons I don't participate in it regularly though is because it is usually performed with the attitude that Catholicism is the highest religion - which it ain't - any more than Mormonism is a 'low' or a false religion.

I challenge Mormons though to develop their religion and this baptism ritual with a both/and rather than an either/or attitude. And I challenge all religions to put aside the preposterous idea that all of their scriptures, doctrines and dogmas are infallible.

[Kber]

37. Nicely put

If you accept the idea of a god who is both universal and loving, I think it's a logical idea that such a god would have created multiple (dare I say infinate) paths to higher spirituality or "salvation".

[anAustralianobserver]

38. Thanks, it was worthwhile thinking about this subject.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Even dead people should have the right to not be converted against their will.

No, I don't think it 'really' matters to the dead people, but the folks they leave behind have a right to ask that people not mess with the memory of their loved ones.

[mysuzuki2]

21. I really can't decide whether to be offended by this practice or to

laugh my ass off at the sheer ridiculousness of it.

[renie408]

31. That's kinda where I'm at.

I am sort of torn between "Who really gives a shit?" and...no, I am still pretty much at "Who really gives a shit?"

[treestar]

43. Ding ding

In their own minds they are just helping the deceased! It's better than "helping" the 16th century way, with burning at the stake or the rack! I say look at this as progress!!

[Thrill]

28. Wait until the conservatives of NC and VA

hear this. Curtains for Mittens

[provis99]

29. there is no life after death in Judaism, so what does Wiesel care?

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Yes there is.

[Kber]

39. There is memory

and they are messing with his father's memory.

Look, in the grand scheme of things, is it my biggest worry? Of course not. But I still think it's pretty uncool.

[Major Hogwash]

34. It's about the dumbest thing that religion practices.

Besides the funky underwear, the Jesus is the brother of Satan thing, and their attitude that their heaven is higher than your heaven.

It really is beyond the stretch of imagination to wonder just how high heaven is, to think that they needed a whole 'nother level for their own little clique.