Free College- really

[wilt the stilt]

This is a joke and doesn't even really deal with our economic issues. Public Universities are a state issue. each state has different tuition's and different fees. It also has no bearing on the economic issue
same with the $15.00 minimum wage

The real issue is we don't make anything. Our manufacturing jobs are gone. If you really wanted to impact our economy then you would lay out an incentive plan to bring jobs back. Germany out produces us with finished goods with 81 million people an they are not paying skinflint wages.
How come i hear nothing from bernie about this. He sells anger.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. It reminds me of Bernie's proposal to free 600,000 prisoners

even though the vast majority of prisoners are incarcerated by state and local governments.

As president, he would not have the power to free those prisoners.

Bernie's proposals fail when examined closely.

A lot of promising, but not a lot of substance.

[libdem4life]

4. I believe it refers to pot smokers. And yes, the local and state governments

for the most part, dislike using their money to provide all of the needs of a pot smoker.

"The city paid $167,731 to feed, house and guard each inmate last year, according to a study the Independent Budget Office released this week."

How do you feel about paying this much for some one who smoked a doobie or scored an ounce and sold a few doobies?


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-cost-per-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html?_r=0

[Cali_Democrat]

11. There are about 210,000 people incarcerated at the federal level

The vast majority of people incarcerated for marijuana offenses are incarcerated at the state and local level.

Bernie's has no power to free those prisoners as president.

Again, his proposal is full of hot air.

[libdem4life]

21. Holder certainly did...he's federal. He insisted on pot charges for the states. I know

California kind of ignored him, but it worked in other states. So...no matter who puts them in we still pay the 6 figures...that should be plain as day.

The 3 strikes law was enabled by Bill Clinton, IIRC. That bulged our prison system, and even while accepting their money, caused new ones to be built which brought on pressure to keep them full which meant more arrests in the most convenient places...which would be places where the poor and/or POC live and ruin their lives forever because they have a record now and can't get a job.

They didn't have enough violent criminals to fill the new prisons so they started trolling for pot smokers.

There. That's how it happens and yes, a President/AG/State/Local governments can sure as hell do something about that.

And guess who rolls in Prison Industry donations (even though she's backed off just a bit lately...not good press) yes, HRC.

I would respectfully repeat your last sentence...full of hot air.

[Cali_Democrat]

36. You can insist all you want

But the President and Attorney General cannot force states to free prisoners.

It isn't possible.

Promising to free 600,000 people from prison when the vast majority fall outside your jurisdiction is an empty promise.

Hot air, so to speak.

[libdem4life]

48. It's called not living in a black and white world...unburdened with nuance and facts.

Holder just made a ruling...so he can put them in, but helpless to "unrule" and take them out. It is very simple to reduce the level of a crime which immediately results in prisoner reassessment. But it's too complicated for this level of discourse, other than to question of who gains when the prisons are full and who receives prison donations to make laws so that those prisons are full.

Same as trying to reduce complex issues that Bernie brings up to one-liners. Again, speaks to the level of discourse.

And all prisoners fall into one of the categories You Mentioned. And all are affected by sentencing laws and rules.

But see, like you, I'm not an expert in "can't be done". So there's that.

[whatchamacallit]

8. Issued from the comfort of not in prison

[Cali_Democrat]

12. Yes...people on DU can only weigh in on criminal justice issues if they post from prison

Brilliant logic.

[whatchamacallit]

19. Everyone (with a heart)

should support the release of those wrongfully or unnecessarily incarcerated, now matter how (gasp) impractical.

[H2O Man]

2. Respectfully disagree.

There have been tuition-free universities in the past. And they benefit the economy.

[Art_from_Ark]

22. All of my graduate studies were free

All I had to do was be a TA (teaching assistant) to get free tuition and a small stipend, and that was actually pretty fun.

[H2O Man]

24. Right.

A lot of my family members also benefited from tuition-free colleges. More, society benefited from their contributions to the country, and their communities.

[Fearless]

3. WE are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world

If Germany can do it, we can do it.

It's just that simple.

The rest is just bullshit concern trolling disguising maintaining the status quo.

[wilt the stilt]

15. Germany out produces us with

81 million people. that is how they are able to afford things.

[Fearless]

18. That is false...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

1 Luxembourg 103,187
2 Switzerland 82,178
3 Qatar 78,829
4 Norway 76,266
5 United States 55,904

18 Germany 41,267

[wilt the stilt]

26. out produces us

with finished goods.

[hack89]

34. Still wrong

America produces 17% of the world's manufactured goods. Germany 6%



https://www.mapi.net/blog/2015/09/china-solidifies-its-position-world%E2%80%99s-largest-manufacturer

[wilt the stilt]

57. maybe I didn't explain myself well

Germany is the largest national economy in Europe, the fourth-largest by nominal GDP in the world, and fifth by GDP (PPP). The country is a founding member of the European Union and the Eurozone.[15][16]

The socio-economic policy of Germany is based on the concept of the social market economy.

In 2014, Germany recorded the highest trade surplus in the world worth $285 billion,[17] making it the biggest capital exporter globally.[18] Germany is the third largest exporter in the world with 1.13 trillion euros ($1.28 trillion) in goods and services exported in 2014.[19][20][21][dated info] The service sector contributes around 70% of the total GDP, industry 29.1%, and agriculture 0.9%. Exports account for 41% of national output.[22][dated info] [23] The top 10 exports of Germany are vehicles, machineries, chemical goods, electronic products, electrical equipments, pharmaceuticals, transport equipments, basic metals, food products, and rubber and plastics.[24]

So even if we look at the numbers and apply it to population. we are only producing 2.5 times as much as germany but we have 4 times the population. Not good in any way.

[jwirr]

27. Yes, they do but could it be that the level of education in

their country compared to ours has something to do with that?

We used to think it did in the 70s when I want to school.

[wilt the stilt]

35. Germany protects it's manufacturing

an they know it is important.

[Ed Suspicious]

52. We don't have a production problem, for fucks sake. Production always seems to rise.

You're pedaling horseshit.

[farleftlib]

5. Bernie sells anger?

What you try to peddle here is stale old talking points. Nobody's buying.

Sanders is against trade agreements that ship our jobs overseas. Hillary is all for them. Ergo, he is doing something.

[wilt the stilt]

20. absolutely sells anger

and you people are very similar to Trump people in many ways.

[jillan]

25. Excuse me? Trump? More name calling from the Hillary Hotheads.

[farleftlib]

28. "You people?"

Well then you people are chickens voting for Col. Sanders. Good luck with that. I have a better idea. I'm voting for change, for the guy who's constituents are the 99%.

[H2O Man]

45. Come on.

I'll start by saying that although we disagree on which candidate we support in the primary, I have a high opinion of you. I don't know you as well as I know a handful of others, but I can't remember any prior disagreement with you.

Being told that I'm "angry," and one of "you people," strikes me as odd. I support Bernie Sanders because I believe he represents our best option for instituting real progress. It's not because I'm angry .....I'd hoped the OPs that I posted, and responses to others' threads -- including two of your recent ones on Bernie and "free" college -- were rational, non-emotional attempts to engage in conversation.

One thing that I've made clear -- and I'm not an advocate of "the lesser of two evils -- if Hillary Clinton wins our party's nomination, I definitely campaigning for her. And the other Democrats running for office, as well. While it is only my opinion, if any of the republicans were to win in the November presidential contest, it would cause a very bleak time in our nation's history.

[Logical]

6. All of the sudden hillary fans hate free college and single payer! LOLOLOLOLOL

[wilt the stilt]

9. See this is the typical bullshit

I am all for single payer and have been advocating it for years. As opposed to most i went out on my own and pay for my own healthcare.

The real issue here is manufacturing. Free college is a drug. Sounds good minimal impact on the economy. In order to do single payer in my opinion is going to be diffficult. even Canada did it in steps.Not all of Europe is single payer. The only way we get single payer done is if the business world gets behind it and they should.

[libdem4life]

7. Maybe we'll get to discuss each and every one of Sander's "freebies" in detail for those

who aren't Feeling the Bern.

I went to college 5 years for free in California....a lot of it at night because I had to work. But at least I didn't have to pay tuition.

[wilt the stilt]

13. I just got finished paying for 2 kids in college

so i know it is expensive. When you went it was free because we had a very robust economy. We made something. Until we address that everything else is bullshit.

[libdem4life]

39. It's always been free in California. I hear now they are trying to get some tuition, so

who knows. Maybe it's because it is a Blue State...like for the people and all. I had student loans for my last 3 years at 3% interest and no bank was involved. I taught school, so 1/4 was forgiven each year.

These upgraded student loans are gifts to the Banksters...so was the anti-bankruptcy clause so that when they had 6 figure debt there were not enough jobs to go around. Education, like health care, and pharmaceuticals is not all that expensive when the middle layers of greed are taken out.

I think the word is Privitization.

[fwiff]

42. The economy was robust BECAUSE TAXES were twice as high!

Pre 1982, the highest marginal rate was 70%

[Warren Stupidity]

65. So you just wasted all that money?

Your claim in your op is that there is no point as there are no jobs. So why the flying fuck did you pay all that money for your kid's college?

[litlbilly]

10. give it up stilt, you tried this yesterday and i sank the way this one will

[farleftlib]

16. Same Shit Different Day

These tired old talking points are posted like clockwork.

[wilt the stilt]

17. Why don't you deal with the real issue

we don't make anything and why isn't Bernie saying anything about that. That is the real economic issue not free college.

[Ed Suspicious]

54. Swinging political influence away from corporations and back to regular people might enable a little

much needed protectionism that might result in a return of manufacturing jobs. There is no candidate other than Bernie who will even consider an alternative to unfettered trade.

[speaktruthtopower]

14. Cost of free college..

62 billion.

Defense budget 2016: 573 billion plus 163 billion for the VA.

[wilt the stilt]

23. so explain to me

how free college brings manufacturing back to the U.s.

[speaktruthtopower]

29. Stimulates demand as young people have more spending money

more demand more jobs.

[hack89]

37. No. You can always sell them stuff made overseas

in a global economy it doesn't matter where it is made.

[speaktruthtopower]

47. If we raise tariffs to bring manufacturing back..

things at Walmart get more expensive. Less student debt burden offsets that.

But the student loan crisis is more of a generational issue than a manufacturing loss issue. They are going to have to bail out their parents social security anyway.

[hack89]

49. Then other countries impose tariffs on us

and we lose manufacturing jobs. It is hard to imagine a tariff large enough to make in economical to build consumer goods in America.

[speaktruthtopower]

56. I know the issues..

with tariffs.

We've encouraged neo-mercantilism from China, and before that Japan, that has lost us manufacturing, made their products less expensive here and given us a huge public debt. Manufacturing jobs will return even without tariffs when that starts to reverse, but the reversal process is going to cause pain on both sides of the Pacific.

[fwiff]

44. Um. It doesn't. They're separate issues and have been addressed as such.

Deliberately conflating them makes no sense. Are you trying to express something here?

The way free college ties INTO Sanders' program, is that it is another level of opportunity people can access to reduce wealth inequality. It worked very well for decades, from the 50's thru 80's in many states.

[wilt the stilt]

30. so everyone

answer me this How do we bring manufacturing back to the U.S. My mother warned me about this in 1978.

[jeff47]

41. We don't.

The horses are already out of the barn. Slamming that door shut won't help.

And advances in automation and robotics mean few manufacturing jobs will be done by humans. The few manufacturers that have moved back to the US make massive use of automation, so they employ FAR fewer humans.

Which is why it becomes very important to actually talk about things like "free college". Because the jobs that will be available will require much beyond a high school education. Whether that education comes from a "college" or a trade school.

[roody]

31. No! We can't!!

[guillaumeb]

32. So the US should settle for being a third world country because the rich refuse to pay taxes?

And US citizens should settle for this why?

defeatism is not the same as pragmatism

[jillan]

33. Yes you are right- while the rest of the world INVESTS in education for their citizens so they can

compete in a Global Marketplace - Americans should just continue to dumb down our citizens and let the rest of the world have the brightest and the best scientists, developers, mathematicians, teachers, etc.

Fuck us.

[wilt the stilt]

40. If you are asking about education on the secondary level

that is a separate issue. We lost our educational system when women went into the regular workforce. Until that happened we had a captive very qualified teacher pool. Women who were teachers became lawyers and doctors and top level executives.. until then they had 3 jobs nurse, secretary and teacher.

[farleftlib]

46. .

[catnhatnh]

64. For someone who's candidate complains about sexism

this just fucking beats all.

[farleftlib]

43. Screw college

We should just stick uneducated people on assembly lines where they make less than a living wage. That's a much better solution according to wilt.

[wilt the stilt]

55. you are the one putting down people

and so elitist.

my dad was a union guy. he worked in a sugar refinery in Yonkers, NY. He was a longshoreman.i come from the blue collar. my parents did not have college educations. I'm a scrapper.

Do you know what i do. I cold call people and I am one of the best. i run my own business and i make a damn good living. I pay for my healthcare and I pay double social security.

I just paid for my 2 kids college education.

i am an actual entrepreneur.

What is wrong with being a plumber or a carpenter or a factory guy. it is you who is elitist not me.

[AOR]

62. Having union roots you should know better...

you are speaking in the tongues of the individualist social scab. In the tongues of the "libertarian." Your situation is subjective and has no relevance on the whole.

[berniepdx420]

38. RIP.. Jer bear... ..but they said the same thing before we made public highschools free .... it

is a needed paradigm shift that deals with the necessity of education in today's competitive and technology based economy... and don't let them fool you that there isn't enough money... just take a look at two things... concentration of wealth today & how much we spend on war and weaponry ... We need to invest in us... We need to find innovative ways to take back the wealth the Trickle Down folks have stolen from us.

[UnBlinkingEye]

50. Noticed that you cited Germany

" Germany out produces us with finished goods with 81 million people an they are not paying skinflint wages. "

They also have free colleges and universal health care. Also employees on the board of every corporation.

[Vinca]

58. You and your darn facts.

[bravenak]

51. DU REC!

[marew]

53. WRONG!!!! You heard nothing because you have not been listening!

http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/
https://berniesanders.com/issues/creating-jobs-rebuilding-america/
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-trade/
http://fusion.net/story/216948/bernie-sanders-felix-salmon-interview-economy/
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/03/bernie-sanders-flexes-muscles-introducing-bill-create-13-million-jobs.html

[ladjf]

59. The tuition would have to be based on Federal grants. nt

[ladjf]

60. When I attended my state university in the 1950's , tuition was $110 per semester.

Today, that same school charges $3,600 per semester for in-state students.

We were able to afford it in 1955. Why can't it be done now?

It's not a matter of being able to afford the tuition reduction, the question is can we afford to deny education to a very large segment of our population. Only the wealthy can afford college now. That will mean that only the children of the wealthy will be educated and hired a high level professions.

[CajunBlazer]

61. How come I hear nothing from bernie about this?

Bernie blames everything on the 1% and this doesn't fit well into his narrative, but I'm sure he can fit in somewhere.

[thesquanderer]

63. re: "How come i hear nothing from bernie about this."

You haven't heard him talk about trade? Being against the TPP? In the past, being against NAFTA, PNTR w/China? If you want a candidate who will end these things, he's your guy. I know, HRC says she's against TPP, but do you really believe it? She's been for it in the past, she's been for those other trade deals when Bernie was against them, and she'll be for TPP again when it is slightly "tweaked".