I'm old and jaded. I sure hate to see the enthusiasm of young people stifled instead of encouraged.

[Armstead]

I used to be young and enthusiastic and optimistic that we could do better through the political process. I've become a lot more jaded, although the remaining idealistic youthful side of my nature still refuses to give up.

Collectively my Baby Boom generation and the Gen Xers have sold our souls -- sometimes without realizing it.

Now, in the name of "realism" too many elements of the Democratic Party seem intent on CRUSHING the idealism and enthusiasm of the next generation to elect a "give up" candidate and governing style.

Having seen the cumulative result of that form of NON-LIBERAL governance and politics, I gotta say that it is shameful that idealism is now officially categorized as Unicorns to be Crushed just because my own generation and the Gen Xers have become cynical and defeatist and have given up.

[RKP5637]

1. Suppression seems to be the main theme anymore combined with divide and conquer. I don't even

recognize the democratic party of today.

[Stallion]

2. We Are Trying to Prevent the Election of Richard Nixon

like my slightly older generation should have done in 1968 and 1972. Fought Humphrey and got Nixon. McCarthy was a mirage. Then they nominated Landslide George McGovern

[glaeken777]

35. agreed

My father went door to door for Humphrey back in the day. Then we got Nixon... Ford... by the time Carter arrived and (in my father's eyes) bungled things, he became one of those Reagan Democrats who never looked back.

I don't think he'll ever admit it, not being one to wear emotions on his sleeve, but I think the deaths of JFK, RFK, and MLK were a TKO that did a number on him. I remember he told me that RFK drove past his Catholic school and made an impromptu stop to stump speak and hug the nuns. He was lucky enough to be up front, and got to shake his hand. I can only imagine what that would've been like.

[mountain grammy]

80. Those three assassinations killed a spirit I can't even describe.

We were young, and so were they, all of us born in the twentieth century and we really believed we could change the world. Apparently, there were other plans afoot.

[thereismore]

58. Look at those hipsters! nt

[JDPriestly]

90. Here are maps of the presidential results going way back.

In 1964, LBJ won almost every state.

Kennedy was assassinated in 1963. The country was in mourning.

In 1964, LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. He also fought the War on Poverty and began Medicare. 1965, the Viet Nam War officially started. By 1968, the war and the demonstrations against it and the draft had divided the country.

Humphrey was an excuse for a candidate.

The racists in the South and the conservatives in the rest of the country rejected the Democratic Party once our Party fought for social justice and paid less attention to economic justice following Humphrey and McGovern (1972).

Nixon won primarily because he promised to get us out of the Viet Nam War "with honor" (what a joke) and because of his Southern strategy. He rode in as a "moderate" and was really a harbinger of extreme conservatism.

We had oil crises in 1973-74 and in 1976. That was before the advent of small cars and reduced gas mileage. Those oil price hikes caused inflation to go out of control.

Reagan was elected in my view to a great extent because of the high cost of oil.

Look at the maps that followed the 1964 election.

My review of history leaves a lot out but I hope I touched on the most important points.

The economy and racism determined the course of our country from its beginning to the present. I don't see how we can effectively defeat racism without first getting our economy moving. Does anyone disagree with me because I would like to read their ideas on how we can do it. How can we end racism without approaching the economic divisions in our country first? Any ideas.

I read a lot of comments on DU criticizing Bernie for focusing on economics, but I don't see any other way to really change our country for the better. I am very willing to read ideas on how to do that. In fact I want to see them.

Hillary's plan to continue the status quo will not work. It just takes us further toward racism (not saying she is a racist; she isn't) and oligarchy. We need change.

[Armstead]

105. Yes 2016 is exactly like 1968 and 1972.....and 1952 and 1864

[JackRiddler]

141. No one would have beaten Nixon in 1972.

So it's time to lay to rest the McGovern bashing.

And Nixon really is the closest analogy to Trump in 2016, a candidate of pure reaction among white people. Except, unlike Nixon with the dog-whistles and the overwhelmingly white country, Trump has actively declared war on the 1/3+ of the non-white electorate, and would need to win 70%-plus of the white people. And do so having smashed the Republican establishment. I don't think it's happening. Sanders being the stronger candidate than Clinton, nothwithstanding.

[brooklynite]

3. By "stifling" you seem to mean "not getting THEIR candidate nominated..."

Last edited Wed Feb 24, 2016, 06:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Tough.

Welcome to the real world where politics is a zero-sum game. One candidate wins, everyone else loses. You work like hell, then you accept the results (good or bad) and start working again.

I started out in politics in the late 70s, through the Reagan/Bush era. A LOT of the candidates I supported lost. I didn't stamp my foot at the unfairness that MY choice wasn't the choice of the voters. I moved on to the next campaign and tried again.

[farleftlib]

5. It's actually

a zero-sum game, not zero-some. The sum at the end of the game is zero for the one who loses.

In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s).

[Vattel]

67. You are incorrect that "the sum at the end of the game is zero for the one who loses."

When you add the respective utilities of the players, the sum is zero. Losers end up with a negative utility.

Sorry to be picky. Sometimes I can't help myself.

[farleftlib]

77. That's OK

I'm sometimes a little picky myself. After all, I was pointing out the error of zero-some game.

We never learn unless someone points out our errors.

[grossproffit]

6. +1 Yet, no issues with stifling young Hillary supporters.

Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[Bluenorthwest]

102. Your comment would make sense if the slamming of young voters did not happen in advance of any

nomination. They have been slammed for taking part. You are in fact slamming them now in the prophetic case, predicting their loss and chiding them for the bad behavior you prognosticate they will need to be corrected for. It's absurdly nasty and presumptive.

[Armstead]

103. No I'm experienced enough and smart enough to know the difference between...

a campaign in which two candidates beat each other up in a political matchup, and a systematic attempt by a candidate and party leadership (and too many members) to snuff out new ideas and energy, and crush ideals to keep a stale status quo intact.

[workinclasszero]

4. All those young people have to do is

Take themselves down to the voting booth and vote.

If those young,enthusiastic and optimistic folks would have gotten off their asses and caucused for Bernie in Nevada, Hillary would be in serious trouble right now.

But they freely chose not to. Internet polls and bumper stickers and yard signs are so much easier.

Oh well. The people that care enough to go vote get to determine the future.

Its democracy, gotta love it!

[Skwmom]

13. Maybe if the caucus wouldn't have been such chaos he would have prevailed. Amazing how they REFUSED

to audit the Iowa results.

[workinclasszero]

17. Hey I dont like the caucus style voting either

[brooklynite]

54. Point to any instance where "chaos" kept someone who supported Sanders from voting...

...alternatively, point to any complaint by the Sanders campaign about the conduct or outcome of the Caucus.

[Bubzer]

73. Sure! Right here.

http://www.rgj.com/story/news/politics/2016/02/20/long-lines-too-few-ballots-dem-caucus-locations/80666630/

[grossproffit]

7. If I were a young Hillary supporter I wouldn't feel very welcome on this forum.

Just sayin'.

[workinclasszero]

10. I have zero sympathy

For people that throw away their right to vote, young or old.

Legions of Americans have bled and died so they could freely vote unlike many places in this world.

A person has no right to cry about how terrible things are in this country and then leaves it up to other people to vote.

Doesn't work like that.

[treestar]

60. +1 I dislike all the complaining and excuses

especially about not being inspired enough and what have you.

[workinclasszero]

97. Right

You are voting for the future of your kids, that should be all the inspiration a person needs!

[tazkcmo]

153. With Sec Clinton's War Support

I wouldn't be mentioning the future of my kids as it's the exact reason I'll never vote for her. He won't be dying in a desert for oil or in a jungle for cheap labor.

[VulgarPoet]

160. Amen.

I'm not throwing myself or my future kid into a grinder for her.

[jeff47]

11. In the 3 primaries/caucuses we've had so far

Sanders won 18-30 year-olds by around 80%.

Young Clinton supporters are quite rare. Young Sanders supporters are extremely common.

In addition, the critique of young Clinton supporters would be "ask for more". Not "shut up you noob".

[FiveGoodMen]

45. If you were a young Hillary supporter, you would be advocating the final sale of our democracy

to the highest bidder.

SHOULD such a person feel welcome?

[Trajan]

76. Well you would certainly feel uncomfortable with me, then

So let's just get this over with ...Gone

[chervilant]

83. Well, now...

Very few younglings are supporting Hi11ary, and I think that's testimony to our younglings' awareness that our political system has been co-opted by the obscenely wealthy corporate megalomaniacs. It's a shame that Hi11ary counts many of these obscenely wealthy corporate megs among her supporters, but there it is.

I would think that her supporters would consider why she is not popular among our younglings...

[Art_from_Ark]

147. There's always the Hillary Group

Where never is heard, a discouraging word

[Skwmom]

8. I agree. Though if you give up you let them win. n/t

[farleftlib]

9. I don't think they will be stifled

at least I hope not. You know it's serious when the GOP describes our youth as "terrifyingly" liberal. They are terrified. They admit it.

"According to new polling by right-wing political consultant Frank Luntz, Americans 18 to 26 are extremely liberal — so liberal that “the hostility of young Americans to the underpinnings of the American economy and the American government” should “frighten every business and political leader” and “excite activists for Sanders ... "

The MSM isn't the mass thought-control weapon it once was. Critical thinking is back with a vengeance and compassion is the new black. There is no bully pulpit and the emperor has no clothes. I love it.

K & R

[Armstead]

15. I hope not -- But it is depressing and angering to see the attempt to do it

[farleftlib]

21. Yes

As is the realization, as you put it, of how we have been unwillingly complicit in the gradual hostile takeover of our country by the oligarchs. The think tanks, the consolidation of the airwaves into the hands of a few, the erosion of our civil liberties, the progressive-sounding candidates with a corporate agenda. I held my nose at the polls so many times it has permanent indentations.

There is a voice crying from the wilderness though....

[Duval]

85. And, hopefully, the voice will get louder.

Bernie is right. It is We The People who must rise up and say "Enough is Enough", and VOTE.

[Dems to Win]

12. Democratic Leaders are destroying the future of the Democratic Party

They may win this one, and get Hillary nominated, but they are throwing an entire generation of future voters out of the party and possibly out of the political process all together.

I can't believe what I'm seeing, frankly. Surely all these political animals see what they are doing?

I'm an old fogey who will proudly stand with young voters and cast my ballot for Bernie Sanders.

[chervilant]

86. Me, too.

I appreciate how you expressed yourself herein above.

(Also, flags were my Mother's favorite flowers--I have a lot of vintage bulbs in my front yard now.)

[Duval]

89. Are flags the same as iris's? My Mom loved them also. nt

[chervilant]

91. Yes,

my Mom called them flags. Actually, a lot of the older generation in North Arkansas still calls them flags.

They are such a lovely flower.

[DrDan]

14. seems to me that should be a two-way street

encourage their enthusiasm . . . but, expect support for winning candidates even though their candidate did not go forward

[Armstead]

16. If they are told to "Give up and support the Meh candidate of the status quo.."

That is not encouraging enthusiasm

[DrDan]

20. so we should give credence to threats of staying home if their candidate is not nominated?

[Lizzie Poppet]

40. Yes, you should.

Hopefully not so much in states that are actually in play...but I absolutely guarantee you that Hillary will not motivate young progressives to vote in anywhere near the numbers Bernie would. Moreover, she will motivate a huge number of conservatives to vote. It can't be stated strongly enough how much they despise her.

[treestar]

61. That doesn't work

Since they get the Republican in office, which was supposedly what they did not want. There's nothing to bargain with here to try to force people who prefer Hillary to vote for Bernie. Vote for Bernie or we will stay home. Not logical, because then we just all get the Republican President. I'm not going to vote for Bernie by a threat like that. Talk about uninspiring.

[Lizzie Poppet]

99. If my state looks to be in play (unlikely)...

...I'll vote for whatever liberal candidate is most likely to beat the Republican, even if that candidate isn't nearly liberal enough for me. In practical terms, that means the Democrat, since there's obviously no chance the Green candidate (or whoever) will prevail.

But my state's almost certainly already a done deal (that is, going to go blue...I'm from Oregon). As long as the Electoral College exists, in all its anachronistic, anti-democratic "glory," it has the silver lining of allowing me to skip the presidential ballot slot when there's no one I want to vote for (only those I want to vote against). Wouldn't be the first time...

A concern of mine about Hillary winning the nomination, aside from her not being as far left as I insist on to actively support a candidate, is that I don't think she can win in November.

[DrDan]

72. well then - they can stay home - its their future as well

I will not be threatened by this juvenile attitude. I will not play that game.

btw - I will be supporting BS should he win the nomination. Keeping the gop out of the WH is still a priority for me.

[chervilant]

88. What?!?

"I will not be threatened by this juvenile attitude"?!?

How is YOUR attitude--which seems to be a continuation of "just hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils"--any less "juvenile"?

It's almost like you are stomping your feet and proclaiming, "they're not playing nice!"

[mythology]

106. To me his attitude seems to be to look at the situation in the general election logically

Realistically there are going to be two relevant candidates, the Democratic and Republican candidates. Each of them stakes out a position (actually positions on many issues) and a voter can analyze and say that either the D or the R is going to be President. One of them is going to be closer to an individual voter's preferred position. If somebody is supporting Sanders, and Clinton wins the nomination, I suspect the person who voted the same as Sanders 93% of the time in the Senate will be closer than Trump, Cruz or Rubio.

Growing up means realizing that you won't always get your way, but you can always make the best out of a situation. If you can vote for somebody who objectively far more closely approaches your preferred position, then that's the solution most likely to get you the best result of the available options.

[Maedhros]

132. "You" are not being threatened.

The threat is to go-along-to-get-along Democratic candidates, who will no longer be able to mumble vaguely liberal platitudes while vacuuming up corporate donations and telling us to vote for them or else.

Those chumps will go the way of the dinosaur.

[lovemydog]

140. I never tell anyone to give up.

I never tell them who to vote for either. I love seeing people get more involved locally. That's where one can organize effectively & get strong results.

[bettyellen]

18. I think the "everyone is corrupt/ establishment except for Bernie" thing is stifling the vote.

That shit is bleak, and people are encouraging each other to stay home in November.

[Skwmom]

25. What drum do you think Trump is going to beat?

[bettyellen]

27. He is beating the "we're all going to make money" drum pretty loudly, and it's working.

[AlbertCat]

53. "everyone is corrupt/ establishment except for Bernie"

Clinton isn't "everyone."

That her supporters think she is is very bleak shit.

[bettyellen]

57. Oh please, casting shade on Planned Parenthood, the CBC, and most every other person who has

endorsed Hillary and dismissing them all was stupid. Make is look like people really do think they can "Bern it down".

[AlbertCat]

64. and dismissing them all was stupid.

Who did that? Sanders?

His supporters? How many? 90%? 20%? a few internet posters?

[bettyellen]

98. Sanders did dismiss PP after they endorsed Clinton. Foolish to have sour grapes like that.

After the rough time they have had the last few years, dismissing them as "establishment" is foolish.

[Armstead]

108. Bernie's observations are not unique. They are just resonating with....

many people, young and old, who look at the system as it currently exists and see a damn mess, and one which is getting worse.

The situation is bleak. Bernie is hitting the nail on the head by pointing out that a tiny handful control far, far too muchwealth, while to many have far too little.

And he is trying to mobilize people to organbize for a collective voince.

But the party that is supposed to provide that voice has been either silent or complicit in the causes -- and as is curently heppening, tends to shut out any real reform.

[bettyellen]

118. I think a lot of people miss the nuances, and have fallen for the "all the same" crap...

which in many important ways is not true, and very irresponsible to say. Because it's fucking congress. But that's not exciting enough, right? Which leaves us with Trump, good lord. What a bunch of idiots we are.

[Armstead]

119. We've had a "frame" for three decades that ignores core problems

Perhaps it requires a broad brush to change that frame, to make it possible to fill in the details in a better way.

[bettyellen]

125. I agree with you there. Im still trying to figure out what Trump is playing at. Best I can think of

is using undue influence and insider info to enrich himself, and to try and get rid of inheritance taxes. Sorry, I just have his bizarre victory speech stuck in my head. It's like it has a magic power to reduce you to idiocy or something. Or like watching a car crash.

[Armstead]

126. I think it's simply the ultimate fulfillment of his ego.

[bettyellen]

135. I had resisted listening to anything but sound bites, and after seeing him last night....

Well, it was such jingoistic gibberish I am having a hard time how any self respecting person could vote for him.
The idiocy reminds me way too much of Black Mirror. Scary stuff.

[Attorney in Texas]

19. A familiar dance: 1) shit on young voters, 2) shit on their dreams, 3) bitch about their low turnout

[TheLogicalSong]

22. This is how young people see it:

[farleftlib]

24. That

is priceless!

Thank you so much for that.

[panader0]

26. lol

[haikugal]

39. Priceless!

That's it exactly!

[TIME TO PANIC]

43. +1,000,000

[FailureToCommunicate]

49. "We'll show those whipper-snappers who to vote for!"

[PassingFair]

68. New screen saver!!!

Thank you.

[Zorra]

104. That should get some kind of prize. I mean it. nt

[Armstead]

124. Priceless

[jillan]

145. Priceless!

[Yuugal]

146. Right Click: Set as Desktop Background

[MaggieD]

23. I hear you, but...

It bothers me greatly to watch him promise a bunch of stuff he can never deliver. If a miracle occurred and he did win we'd have a generation of kids who were completely disillusioned by politics and will think every politician from that point on is shining them on.

So, on the plus side I like that he is getting kids involved in politics. I dislike that he is selling them a rose garden. I was talking to some millennials that support him just a week ago, and I asked them if they thought Bernie was actually going to get free college and single payer, and everyone of them said yes, of course.

Made me shake my head.

[bkkyosemite]

31. Maggie if we all did what Bernie said and were to pressure those that are supposed

to be our servants and they would not budge vote them out. Only millions can do this and change the course. Bernie is trying to get that across to the millions who want to vote for him and it's working.

[MaggieD]

37. But republicans in gerrymandered districts do not agree

Heck, even Dems won't sign on to his proposals, and after reading the details I can see why. Nationwide there simply is not enough support for his proposals.

America is not going to be come the socialist utopia his supporters imagine.

[Duval]

82. Not asking for utopia.

We want a Democracy for all the people, as Bernie has said. What's wrong with closing loop holes so Corps can't stash their profits in the Caymen Islands or elsewhere? What's wrong with taxing Wall Street? We have a Republican Gov in NC, and he is now tied with a Democrat challenger. NC is sick of this guy and I believe we'll vote him out and get more Dems in our State Government.

[MaggieD]

96. All Dems agree with increasing taxes on corporations

Nothing's wrong with taxing Wall Street either as long as it's really Wall Street and not middle class 401ks as Bernie's proposal includes. But you'd not get any republicans in congress to vote for either.

If you want to have a revolution you need to pitch in and help turn your statehouses blue. Before the 2022 re-districting. That's reality. I haven't seen any Bernie supporters doing that.

[Kittycat]

34. There are many things pivotal leaders promised but couldn't deliver on

In their lifetime, but they opened the door for our country to take a leap forward. Each time. Each time we started boiling over, we leaped. We've been boiling for a while. We have a potential leader that is giving these kids a voice. It will be up to their generation to pick up the torch and carry it. Or, they can say screw it, and us - and sit it out.

We can be jaded, crap on them, marginalize them, and call it a day. Just because we let it happen to us, doesnt mean we should let it happen to them. Honestly, they're our future. I'd rather we let them follow a path that respects the importance of being there for each other (and us in our old age), rather than a life of jaded greed that just lets each day pass us by. Wouldn't you rather grow old trying, than live your life knowing that you didn't bother because it wasn't worth the fight?

[MaggieD]

38. Ask kids today what they think of Obama

And they will tell you they are disappointed. And he did not promise anywhere near what Sanders is promising.

[Kittycat]

42. Ask me what I think today

And I'll tell you I'm disappointed. I was an early adopter who drove to Iowa to knock on doors for him, and voted twice for him, and still take flack from some of my republican neighbors. However, I still think he's done some great things - but we didn't need to move center right on so many others. Particularly ones of his choosing.

[MaggieD]

44. I like Obama a lot

I think he'd done a remarkable job in the face of republican obstructionism. However, kids are disappointed. They are typically politically naïve and yes, idealistic. They believe if you want something bad enough it will happen. But that's not reality in the political world. As adults know.

And again, he didn't promise near as much as Sanders is promising.

[PeterGM]

47. "This is the day we stopped the rise of the oceans"

I rest my case.

[AlbertCat]

56. a bunch of stuff he can never deliver.

He's not promising that "HE" can deliver. He repeatedly says we must do this together, as a group. He clearly thinks of himself as a step in the right direction.

You added the "never".

And Hillary as standing still.... at best. Talk about never delivering.

[MaggieD]

69. Well so far the turnout has been less than Obama's

So apparently the revolution isn't that compelling.

[AlbertCat]

71. So apparently the revolution isn't that compelling.

Enough to keep the "inevitable" Hillary from winning except by only a sliver of a tiny margin. I thought she was supposed to steamroll over him.

Perhaps people are staying home because of her.

[MaggieD]

74. She will win

No sense arguing about by how much.

[treestar]

62. +1

When they find out about Congress (and they should know about it by now). Bernie is just encouraging that type of voting where they think every 4 years they vote for who is going to "run the country" and then say they are disillusioned and hate Congress.

[Armstead]

110. I think it is quite possible to encourage realism without discouraging hope

Bernie is honest about how hard it is, and the fact that it requires more than putting him in office.

He is trying to do the equivalent of what Reagan did in 1980, but in reverse.

If the GOP and conservatives can do it, why not us?

[LisaM]

143. Did you ask them what other candidates and issues they were supporting?

Or how often they've voted in the past year (I've voted three times since August). Loving and supporting ONE candidate is not getting involved in politics. It's not a crowdfunding effort, where you donate $25 so that someone can buy medicine or whatever and then feel good about yourself, while the reality is that the person needing the medicine has lifelong needs that go on far longer than a GoFundMe campaign does. It's researching the school board candidates, the state legislature candidates, mayors, who runs the transit system in a state, port commissioners, the works. It's enormously frustrating to me what people construe as involvement. Now, excuse me while I go research who's running for Port Commissioner....

[liberal_at_heart]

28. That's exactly what they want. For all of us to give up and stop being enthusiastic.

Much like those who fought during the Civil Rights Movement, the Women's Rights Movement, and the Labor Movement we have to find something inside ourselves that keeps that passion going. When you know you are fighting for something right and true and worth fighting for, you just keep going even when they knock you down. This will be a long, hard fight that will not end with this election. This fight will take years, and we need to be strong and ready for it.

[lovemydog]

29. Local politics.

The only way to see if one even likes it is to get involved with it. It's not for everyone. It requires a lot of energy, a lot of listening and a lot of reframing. But amazing things can get done, especially if it's something like a single issue.

[bkkyosemite]

30. I have not given up and I did not do anything to cause the corruption,

bribery and filth in politics. I am 69 soon to be 70 (first of the boomers). Can I get down about the things I see and angry about the things I see, yes! But I have not given up. Bernie is my candidate and I will vote for him.

[Hoyt]

32. Better than McGovern redux. But I basically agree with you. Growing up is not easy.

Never has been.

[Armstead]

121. Well I feel like half a grown up and half still a punk kid

I try to keep the punk kid alive while the grown up keeps me honest.

[JI7]

33. nobody is stifling anything.

[haikugal]

36. I don't know if you saw this post but it's a good one and on topic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1225024

If you read down the thread you can see the very thing you're talking about.

Thanks for your OP and for caring enough to speak out about what is happening.

[Enthusiast]

75. Thank you, haikugal. I'm sorry I missed that one.

[haikugal]

81. Hey guy!!

It's a good read but those remarks will piss you off.....

[Enthusiast]

148. Hi

I hope things are going well. How mad are we at Cruz for his gluten free military MRE remarks? He confirmed my impressions.

[haikugal]

155. Yeah, what a compassionate conservative Christian.....

He and his ilk are clueless wannabe's. What do you expect from someone who hangs out with the tundra twat?

Doing better, finally.....took a while. Hope all is well with you

[dr60omg]

41. Jaded now in a political revolution will turn around and bite you

For the people who do not understand the pleas of younger voters try and stand in their shoes. For those of us who are baby boomers and Gen X'ers who grew up with some ducking and covering but a concurrent world of a possible future ... school in some states was free or practically free (if you went to a state supported university or city university).

For our children duck and cover has turned into impossible to conceive of threats coming at them from all directions: global pandemics, climate change, yes nuclear war (still), radiological warfare, endless war, the lack of a government response, endless debt in a jobless future. Have you noticed young people getting married later and later and some even opting for not having children. A very bleak different world.

So, don't give people lectures. Their frustrations are real, their anger in real. I may be older but I stand in solidarity with young people. They don't have the time for power hungry dynastic groups that would destroy their opportunity to be and become

[PeterGM]

46. It's Clinton's only path to victory.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/be-afraid#.mcEeyQJq5

B. Clinton holds the record for the president that won with the lowest voter % in modern American history
H. Clinton is on a patch to crush his record as well... When your favorability ratings are so low they can't go lower (They're about the same as Trump's) then your path to victory is demoralizing the opponent's voters, not try to enthuse your own.. Tbh it's working very well for Clinton this far...


LOWEST - (D) Bill Clinton 1992 - 23.7 % of eligible votes.
(R) George W. Bush 2000 - 24.09 % of eligible votes.
(D) Bill Clinton 1996 - 24.1 % of eligible votes.
(D) Harry Truman 1948 - 25.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Richard Nixon 1968 - 26.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Ronald Reagan 1980 - 26.82 % of eligible votes.
(D) Jimmy Carter 1976 - 26.85 % of eligible votes.
(R) George H. W. Bush 1988 - 26.86 % of eligible votes.
(D) Barack Obama 2012 - 28.05 % of eligible votes.
(R) George W. Bush 2004 - 28.2 % of eligible votes.
(D) Franklin D. Roosevelt 1944 - 29.96 % of eligible votes.
(D) Barack Obama 2008 - 30.2 % of eligible votes.
(D) John F. Kennedy 1960 - 31.2 % of eligible votes.
(R) Ronald Reagan 1984 - 31.3 % of eligible votes.
(R) Richard Nixon 1972 - 33.4 % of eligible votes.
(R) Dwight D. Eisenhower 1952 - 34 % of eligible votes.
(R) Dwight D. Eisenhower 1956 - 34 % of eligible votes.
HIGHEST (D) Lyndon B. Johnson 1964 - 37.5 % of eligible votes.
Source: Wikipedia and mathematics.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. Whereas I hate seeing people being given false hopes.

In the name of realism (not "realism&quot , we need to explain to people that no-one can deliver what Bernie Sanders is promising.

Clinton is not a "give up" candidate, she's a "hold our ground" candidate, whereas Sanders is a "stupidly overcommit and lose everything" candidate.

[bbgrunt]

52. perfect case in point of stifling those who have ideals and principles.

The whole Clinton campaign seems to be one of fighting and becoming like a republican rather than to offer any hope for a better future.

[Enthusiast]

79. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Bernie has made it clear dozens of times that he can achieve none of his proposals. The only way we can accomplish this is through a groundswell of support by millions of voters and public opinion—a political revolution.

So, you mischaracterized Bernie will you apologize?

See, Clinton supporters don't flinch at dishonesty. It is no problem.

I will never again knowingly vote for a liar for office.

[Armstead]

117. We've been "holding our ground since the 80's" and look what it has gotten us

A GOP in control of Congess and most state governments, an agenda -- even among democrats -- that has allowed Corporate Power to crush the public good, an economy that siphons everything to the top from the middle and bottom....and a political system that's bought and paid for.

Perhaps it might be time to aim higher than "hold our ground."

[marlakay]

50. On campus today I saw more kids come over

To register to vote. I think they know its more important than ever.

A few are saying why bother, but most are still in there trying buying stickers, buttons and sold more tshirts today, we had local artist donate her photo of Bernie and made local shirts.

[treestar]

51. How is it being stifled?

They are free to express it at all times.

[Stallion]

55. Maybe We Can Give them all a Yellow Participation Ribbon

so they won't feel so blue

This is an election people-with winners and losers

[Armstead]

115. Express and be told "No we can't" and...

"No we don't want to change anything or even admit that you have a point and will discuss it. Just shut up and vote for our person or you will get much worse with a Republican."

That shit's been going on since 1990 (and to an extent before that).

That'd be a pretty good way to stifle.

[treestar]

156. They don't have to listen to it

and can go on being idealistic. You're trying to stifle anyone who would say anything they don't want to hear. You're saying others should not express their opinions if they are going to get in the way of the idealism.

[Armstead]

158. I can't stifle anyone. If I could I'd tell Trump to shut up and play golf.

But I can express my opinion about the quality and tone of the the message of Democratic candidates and the overall response of the leadership and otehr elements of the power structure.

And my opinion is that the Democratic Establishment (a vague term but handy shorthand) is shooting itself in the foot by the message that is being spread.

"I know you are frustrated and angry at the system. But there's nothing anyone can do about it because we are so weak that we can't fight the Republicans. And those ideals the Democratic Party claims to stand for? Well forget it. Those are unicorns. Reality sucks, so just support the people who have been running things all along. Don't expect any real change or improvement."


I think it is bad for the general Election, bad for the future of the Democratic Party and bad for the US of A.

Your mileage may vary

[treestar]

159. your description is unfair

given the nature of the elections and the people who have been elected. Anyone old enough to vote should know Congress is involved and anyone claiming to be involved in politics should know the Republicans control the House at this time. Anyone who really wants change does not focus on only the POTUS and their dreams. If people are old enough to vote, they are adults. People who can be so easily "stifled" by the facts have a lot to learn.

No we don't claim we can't "fight" the Republicans. The way to "fight" them is to see that they are not elected. Not a single idealistic young person has any "enthusiasm" for that. It's too easy to hero worship Bernie and that's it.

Geez. They are "stifled" by being told a FACT that the Republicans have a majority? Did they see the part where the assholes won't even consider the POTUS's nominee without even knowing who it is? That's a lack of sophistication that should not be catered to. Oh the poor little things. They couldn't possibly campaign for a Democratic Senator in their state could they? No just depend on Messiah Bernie's coat tails.

[Armstead]

162. If Reagan and the GOP could set off a Revolution why can't the Democrats?

Reagan had to contend with Democrats in Congress as both a majority and divided government. Did he run on the bases of "Forget it Republicans. Those Conservative ideals sound nice but they're just ponies and unicorns. We're just going to try to hold the line."

Nope. So why do Democrats do that repeatedly? Where has that tepid "realistic" message and agenda gotten us?

[PatrynXX]

59. I'm Gen x. fuck that shit

go Bernie. . never quite learned the rule about that 3 letter word.

[Gamecock Lefty]

63. I'm an older guy probably like you . . .

and nobody is trying to stifle the excitement of young people. And you anti-Hillary folks keep throwing around the term 'neo-liberal.' As if those of us supporting Hillary are false libs and false Democrats.

But I'll give you one point, though. I am hoping Hillary crushes the opposition. Squashes the opposition like a bug!!!

Disclaimer - no disrespect to bugs intended.

[dr60omg]

78. I am not trying to be disrespectful but your definition of neoliberalism is incorrect

There is a specific definition of neoliberalism and before you go hoping to squash opposition like a bug perhaps it would help if you understood the term. Here is the good old fashioned Encyclopedia Britannica's definition http://www.britannica.com/topic/neoliberalism
But I will use a transcript from Democracy now to demonstrate how it is put into action http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/naomi_klein I am also going to provide you a link to her book which is not filled with dense or opaque language that honestly everyone should read entitled the Shock Doctrine which luckily is now available for free online in pdf form http://www.infoshop.org/amp/NaomiKlein-TheShockDoctrine.pdf ... The movie made from it is available on you tube

Her latest book this changes everything frames neoliberalism within the environment .... There are other authors for example Henry Giroux who have written extensively on the topic:http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/26885-henry-giroux-on-the-rise-of-neoliberalism you can go on his own website where he has put up some of his articles which also is helpful.


Having said that neoliberalism consigns everything and throws literally everybody or every BODY into the market place to be bought sold and used as a commodity. In other words subjects become objects and objects are assigned value. We have seen that happen to public education in the US, the private prison industry (remember that in order to be profitable the private prisons must be filled), the examples go on and on ... It is not something that people ought see as a personal critique against them but as an institutional critique if you are taking it personally it is a function of hegemony (I think that word is used to often so I will not use it again here).

It may be a function of education or a knowledge of the forces that shape the society in which we exist in now. It is not a term that is just thrown around it has very specific meaning.

[mountain grammy]

87. The Shock Doctrine is one of the most important books I've read

Glad to see it's available online. I recommend it all the time and will be sure to tell people this.

[dr60omg]

109. Yes I know and now people can read the book for free and watch the movie for free

I always recommend her book and her movie to describe neoliberal interventions ... it is an extraordinary work ...

[fun n serious]

84. I'm a Gen X-er for Hillary.

I wish for all democrats to get out and vote!

[Armstead]

114. Noboidy is trying to stifle. "Squash 'em like a bug."

Hooooookay.

[Rebkeh]

65. Take heart

I was at the Bernie rally in KC today and there were a lot of enthusiastic young people. They are not giving up.

I think it's different on the ground because Bernie is bernin' it up in real life. It's inspiring, actually. When I was young, nobody my age cared about politics. Today is very different.

[WillyT]

66. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[lunatica]

70. I'm in my late 60s so way back in the 60s it was actually much worse

The 'establishment' was totally entrenched and hated us pot smoking hippies and we pretty much hated them too. They didn't stifle us too much. What messed us up was the assassinations of JFK and MLK and Robert Kennedy and then getting Nixon as our next President.

But we made our mark and I consider this time, with the youth of today being strong and getting on with the next step in the revolution.

[SoapBox]

92. I agree with you so much...

Not much more to say.

[Stallion]

93. Young Progressives Blew the 1968 Election

by attacking Democrats/Humphrey instead of Republicans/Nixon-the Convention alone basically handed a close election to Nixon

[Armstead]

111. 1968 -- 2016 ....How many years and how many changes between them?

[Stallion]

133. Oh Democrats Who Were Perceived as Too Liberal Have Blown A Bunch More

Adlai Stevenson (2)
McGovern
Mondale
Dukakis
Kerry

so that most of the lost elections since 1952-63 years

how many candidate seeking a liberal "revolution" have won-that would be ZERO

[Armstead]

134. You don't think Clinton and Obama were perceived as liberal?

Got news for ya....the liberal side of their message and persona is what got them into the WH.

[Stallion]

138. Definitely Not Clinton

and it took the worst economic downturn in 80 years for Obama to win. Clinton would have wiped the floor with McCain by just about the same margin.

[Armstead]

139. His image was as a liberal change from the Reagan/Bush years

Sure a little muddy, but he was a progressive populist in many of his words in his first election. "I'll fight for you til the last dog dies."

[Stallion]

144. Clinton Was a 5 Term Southern Governor and President of the DLC

he was never considered a liberal but a new wave business oriented moderate Democrat

[Lucinda]

94. I don't want to see it stifled either. Which is why I am not fond of candidates pushing for things

they know cannot be achieved. We live in a representative government. Unless you overthrow that government, you cannot change it without changing it's leadership, and in our case, moving the country to the left.

Talking about the world we all believe SHOULD BE is awesome, but you have to be able to make it happen, or we will be discouraging those young people from participating in the future.

[Armstead]

112. We all are going to die which makes life meaningless. Nihilism is objective truth.

I mean how realistic do you want to get?

The sun is going to die or explode someday.

[Goblinmonger]

116. Sanders wants a revolution.

He has made it very clear that he can't do these things by himself. We need to vote in droves a progressive and get rid of everyone we can't that obstructs the things most Americans want. How can that not be more clear of a message from him?

[Lucinda]

120. What is he doing to help elect other Dems to office? The ones he will need to make changes?

He made an agreement to raise funds for downticket Dems, and has not kept that agreement. If he really thought he was going to win, I would think he would be doing something to help elect congress members. That is one of the more telling things to make me conclude they know they aren't going to win. They aren't wasting the time or energy to work for other candidates.

[Goblinmonger]

122. He is going to get a fuckload of really liberal progressive youth out to vote for one.

I don't have enough knowledge to comment on the fundraising. Nothing I have read enough about, sorry. You may be right.

Democrats win when voter turnout is high. Sanders will make that happen. I don't believe Clinton will (except for a shitload of Conservatives that will walk on broken glass to vote against her).

[Lucinda]

128. He hasn't yet. When is that massive turnout going to start? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

131. Kind of a double edged sword

We have really only had one non-caucus primary. We do know that he has overwhelming support for 40 and under. Can Clinton keep those?

[Lucinda]

142. It will certainly be interesting to see the breakdowns over the next week.

We wont have to wonder very much longer.

[Armstead]

123. Why don;t you listen to what he says?

He is trying to put in place a framework that will create a climate in which liberals can get elected and get people to support them.

And since the Congress members have basically cast their lot with Clinton, you blame him for not spending his time campaigning for them individually? Shit they don't even want his help. They prefer to join Hillary in the Can't Do chorus.

[Lucinda]

127. If he isnt even trying to help people get elected, how do you think they will work for him

as POTUS? He can't do everything by executive order. And this is why he has little to no congressional support. He didn't even bother to get a single Republican to co sponsor a single piece of legislation last year. That isn't someone who is a leader. He may be great at working within the system and adding amendments to bills, but that isn't the guy who will get anything through congress.

Wishes don't win elections. Hard work does. And there will be no magic coat tails coming from a guy who isn't getting record turnout.

[Armstead]

129. Is Clinton getting record turnout? And Sanders got many more votes than Trump in NH

And what's he supposed to do to "help" Congresspeope. Bag his own campaign and trave;l to states to elect a bunch of peope who arte working against his presidential candidacy?

[Lucinda]

130. Clinton will do fine in the GE. Thats when Dems turnout. About twice as many DEMS voted in the 08

GE as they did in the primaries.

And he doesn't have to interrupt his campaign to raise money. They are choosing not to do it though, which I think is very telling.
He has little support from his peers because he doesn't work for any. In my opinion, he didn't, or doesn't expect to need it.

[Trust Buster]

95. It's also important for young voters to learn that we live in a representative democracy.

Sure, the Republicans have shamefully distorted voting districts. But, President Obama achieved significant progress while up against the a Republican obstruction machine. I think if the young voter is taught about how Bernie's proposals would receive a House door slamming in their faces, they would look at Bernie a little differently. If they were taught what the costs of a potential 7-2 Right leaning Court would mean for the lion's share of the remainder of their lives, they would see Bernie in a more sober light. They're not being suppressed. They are just learning the cold, hard realities of a polarized country. That's a truly free education.

[Armstead]

101. Yeah that'll encourage young citizens to get involved.

[dr60omg]

113. They are aware: surprise!

They are far more aware of the cold hard realities of our system. I guess you have not listened to Sanders about the whole "we" not me and what it takes including pressuring your representatives, down ballot races and on and on ...

Better than a status quo which they DO not have time for. The world has passed a critical juncture young people are aware and are fighting for their very survival

[treestar]

157. What's really strange is they don't know that already

How do you get to 18 without learning the functions of Congress and the Judiciary and the power the states have? Or forget it so easily that you think the POTUS "runs the country?"

[Armstead]

164. Again, Bernie is not saying he has a magic wand. Just the opposite

He is saying they have to be more involved in the entire process and at all levels.

[treestar]

165. I don't think his followers are getting it

They hardly listen to Bernie.

Just like the huge mass of voters, they think they vote every 4 years for who is going to "run the country" and then blame that person for all that goes wrong and give that person credit for all that goes right.

[Armstead]

166. That's the case with all candidates and many voters

[Jezza]

107. "Hindsight is pain, and it smarts."

genXer w near perspective here...

just as an introduction, in my younger college days, i leaned to extremes and really wanted Ralph Nader to be president. i remember Bush and Gore both being equally "empty of truth" and neither right to lead our country... Still think that our country needs more doctorates in economics than lawyers, and now as i get older, more humanists.

...no condescending of anyone for considering/voting ideologies or platforms; because i do the same. if someone thinks Hillary's the one, for whatever reasons, then who am i to judge!? ...however i engage and ask tough questions when "conversating" w those peers, by challenging on facts and historical actions. Like you, i am "a bit jaded" getting older, but hopefully wiser now.

i remember it being a hard decision to vote Obama (initially); especially as i tried hard to believe in the "her" that Hillary tried hard ta sell. Hillary worked tirelessly & fooled a lot of us/dems in beginning of 2008 primaries, but, she's always been not-liberal-enough in mine eyes, and totally lost me as her negative machine manifested in 07/08. never felt She was particularly strong in economics nor social issues. and Frankly, i was hugely surprised when Obama put her on his staff, but after learning/studying more of corporatism i now know why.... anyhow,

Now 2016, we have seen her grow up these past 20+ years... and cannot claim that we don't know for whom she's decided to stand. "What" she says in her speeches and campaign is certainly not "What" she doe$. --- (my contextual interpretation of your "realism".)

Alternatively, with a historical base-line of programs, votes, and senatorial orations define Bernie Sanders' platform; he's taken consistent action over a few decades on Medicare (now evolved), Education, Civil-Rights, Citizenship Reform, Farming/Food Reform, Police Reform, Taxes on upper 1%, public works programs, ...etc.

i do choose to be part of a different democratic party... far more liberal and much more progressive than the conservative democrats ("moderate" if you prefer) represented by the likes of HRC.

Thanks for heart-felt post.

Vote accordingly.

[Maedhros]

136. I think the mistake that many current Democrats make is to assume that there is some inherent value

to the simple existence of the Democratic Party, and so they fight tooth and nail to perpetuate it even though it has been demonstrated to be working against its members' best interests.

From a progressive point of view, the Party only has value if it fights for progressive policy. Once it fails to do this, it becomes just another roadblock to positive change. Young people have no emotional investment in the perpetuation of the Party, so they are able to see this fact more clearly.

[Armstead]

137. I think you're right...My loyalty is primarily residual for what it used to stand for

[Kentonio]

150. Bingo.

[djean111]

151. Exactly. Down here in Florida - being admonished to support the "D" no matter what,

and then watching the fucking Head of the DNC, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, openly support GOP cronies, refuse to support "fellow" Dems, and openly scuttle Progressives - no, sorry, the brand has been killed, as was the plan, by the Third Way.

When you see a group like the New Democrat Coalition - advised by the Third Way - that proudly says they are eschewing ideology so they can work with the GOP to get things done - the Dem party has been compromised, perhaps fatally. The only things the GOP will work with Democrats on are things the GOP wants. Or the Third Way wants. Sometimes those are the same thing.

[loyalsister]

149. They may rescue us!

They are saying ENOUGH and demanding to be heard. I am pretty sure they are going to dig in after this recent incident where they were dismissed as unimportant.

The BLM activist who confronted Hillary and these protesters give me hope...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1333786

You nailed it here..

"Collectively my Baby Boom generation and the Gen Xers have sold our souls -- sometimes without realizing it."

Too many baby boomers drove the Reagan revolution and got on board with materialism and $$ worship. They parented gen Xers and passed on those values. The greed is good mentality was exacerbated in their early professional lives during the Clinton years.

The millennials may save us by demanding a fighting chance. Gen Xers and baby boomers need to wake up and show some concern about their future.

[lunamagica]

152. So many of these young people expect the *they* will get free college. That's why they support SBS

Really, some that are HS seniors or entering college thing it will be free for *them* by their junior year.

How enthusiastic and and optimistic do you think they will be once this doesn't happen?

Many Sanders supporters say that nothing will get done during his first term. It's all about "setting the course"


We may lose a whole generation of voters once they see, that yes, they were offered unicorns.

[brooklynite]

154. And the only way to encourage young people is to let them have their own way?

[Armstead]

161. No. Listen. Open things up. Stop telling people "No we can't."

It's called actual compromise. Fresh air.

If people want to sell Hillary, hey fine. Go for it. That's politics.

But disparaging the hope and enthusiasm of those who do not feel she is the best candidate by rejecting the very principles of economic liberalism and reform is bad for the General Election, the Democratic Party's future and bad for the US of A.

It's not only the young people, There are a lot of older people who are "realistic" about life who share their frustrations and hope for something better. They range from moderate liberals to more "left" progressives who have tried to keep their hope for reform alive for many years.

I've, for one, have been around the block many times and I have never felt so alienated by the Democratic Establishment than i do now. And I'm just what once would be considered a mainstream liberal.

[MadDAsHell]

163. Those darn Republicans stifling our enthusiasm for Bernie. Oh wait...nt