2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOne BIG mistake the Democratic Party is making by not backing Bernie
This is an anti-establishment election. That is why Bernie and Trump are getting such support.
If the Democrats run Clinton, an establishment, corporate candidate, then ALL of the anti-establishment vote will go to Trump.
If Bernie is the nominee, he will get most of the anti-establishment vote.
There are more independents than either Democrats or Republicans. These independents aren't wed to either party. A number of people have reported that many Sanders supporters have said they will vote for Trump rather than Clinton. That means they are more motivated by anti-establishment sentiment than party affiliation.
It's simple common sense. And that is why he is winning in all the head-to-head polls against all the GOP candidates.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)DNC is all-Hillary, all-the-time in the PRIMARY, and nothing else matters to them, literally.
They don't even seem to care about winning the GE, it's all about Hillary taking out Sanders...
beyond that they don't seem to care much.
oasis
(49,454 posts)SCOTUS cannot be ignored.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)On who Obama nominates. If he nominates a corporatist Republican, then the Dems are toast. Their only campaign argument will be "Vote for the woman because she's a woman and it's her turn."
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)regardless of who Obama nominates
oasis
(49,454 posts)It'll come down to the voters in the GE to determine the fate of SCOTUS.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Will be one of the best ever. We simply must make sure he is president.
oasis
(49,454 posts)Time to make sure that Hillary retires so she can't have any power.
oasis
(49,454 posts)stranger81
(2,345 posts)Remind me again how voting for a Democrat helps shift the balance of power on the SCOTUS?
oasis
(49,454 posts)Sandoval will not be allowed to get a vote in the senate for Supreme Court.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)AYFKM?
Reid, DWS, the DNC, Hillary just settle for No, We Can't. When did the Democratic Party become the (Republican surrogate) Democrat Party?
The DNC and "Democrat" is already leadership is already irrelevant.
Bernie is the Only way out of this.
scscholar
(2,902 posts)what choice do we have?
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)Nevermind that Obama has appointed republicans to positions before
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)elleng
(131,292 posts)we are going to lose.'
Marco Rubio
Goes for BOTH parties.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and yet, deaf ears prevail....
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)would vote for Clinton if she is the nominee,they overwhelmingly answered yes. Stop with the rat fucking.
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)If you don't prostrate yourself before the altar of Mrs. Clinton, you are a rat fucker.
Typical Clintonian tactic. No wonder thinking people don't like her.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)but I heard this on a number of shows when people were asked. It surprised the hosts that people said that.
It seems all Democrats want to believe that all good Democrats will vote for Hillary. But, as I pointed out, MOST voters are NOT Democratic or Republican but Independent.
You can lash out with your foulness, but that doesn't change one single fact. You ignore these things to your peril. I think desperate people cling desperately to their hard held beliefs and the Clinton voters seem to cling to their cult of personality.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)and your assumptions are without merit
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It is an anti-establishment mood. The results from SC - a whole whopping 8% of Dem voters - does not mean diddly squat. In fact the majority of voters in SC ignored the election. IGNORED democracy and the opportunity to participate.
87% IGNORED the establishment's offer to vote. They said FU!
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Your assumptions have no merit -0
The establishment said come vote. 87% said no, FU
DrDan
(20,411 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)They don't want smart people voting.
Do you hear the DNC complaining about how many in SC didn't vote? Hell NO. They are happy there were so few voters. Are you? Why aren't you complaining? You seem happy there were so few voters.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Dumbasses don't vote.
It's crazy to not participate in democracy. Why are you not complaining about the 87% who did not vote? Seems you are happy they did not vote?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)OK, it is left to me to assume you do not like democracy and are happy so few are willing to even vote.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That you are not a fan of real democracy. Indeed your refusal to defend yourself gives that assumption a lot of merit.
msongs
(67,478 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And it takes education to get over the fear. There were 4% who are very brave and very smart.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)handle for your candidate
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Ever hear of the Voting Rights Act? Do you know any history of voting in the deep south?
You are full of assumptions that have no merit.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Bernie has huge enthusiasm and if you ask people who support him, they want a big change from "business as usual".
Same with Trump.
And while your narrow focus seems to be the preliminary election, the REAL game is in the general election. If Hillary is the nomination, a lot of those independent "change" voters will go for the other change candidate -- Trump.
I think that is why Trump beats her in the head-to-head polls and Sanders beats Trump by good margins in those same polls.
It's about the general election.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)because the Establishment is the problem.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Voters are notoriously under-informed and easily duped, so I can't speak to what happens at the ballot box.
George W. Bush had a 92% approval rating after invading Iraq. Half of those people were Democrats, so it's easy to see how they could support someone like Hillary.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)"no we can't" seems to be really drawing them in too...
DrDan
(20,411 posts)One could also say the same about NH, in reverse that is...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and kkmow exactly what they are doing. But they will get to live the consequences... the Sanders people and the progressives are not going away, in the sense that they will find a way.
Politics and physics abhors a vacuum
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)much like the Republicans and Trump supporters, when they hear something the don't like, they just get vulgar and nasty.
I laughed a while back when some Hillary booster wrote a post about how you can't have an intelligent conversation with Bernie supporters.
Well, the kind of responses I see here are pretty much the "intelligent level" of the responses I have seen from them.
wyldwolf
(43,870 posts)The only support that matters is the ballot box.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Are you saying the voters are all corporate shills?
Tarc
(10,478 posts)Bernie has to convince the Democratic voters that he's the one for the job, and so far he is not doing that.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)So does Iowa and Nevada.
Now if you're going to hang your hat on the 8% of Dem voters in SC as being representative of anything and fall back on attempting to claim it represents the AA voice in the US you first need to explain why only 8% of the voters carries much weight.
Of course you can't and won't explain anything because the fact that so few voted is really quite embarrassing, isn't it?
Tarc
(10,478 posts)I should know, as I kinda live here. Bernie winning his neighboring, mostly-white state is not a bell-ringer.
As the nation is quickly diversifying, Clinton making inroads with persons of color while still retaining the white vote is what is propelling her success.
As for turnout, that is why The Bern is doing so poorly in places, as the vaunted youth vote fails to show.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And why 8% of the Dem vote there should be representative of anything?
Clinton is only up right now due to that 8% vote. Your claim that she is successful is without merit and is false in the face that she is not yet anointed as the press and many of yall were claiming she would be by now. In other words, nothing the H supporters have prophesied about her success has come true.
The record of those prophecies is zero, so why should we be
believe any more of that wishfulness now?
Tarc
(10,478 posts)Georgia, Tennessee, and many o the Southern Super Tuesday states that Clinton is going to cruise to 20+ margins in.
I'm sure whatever % they all come out to will be dismissed by you too.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It's the deep south where they had to institute the Voting Rights act. The boot of the oppressors in the deep south is heavy.
You still haven't answered the SC question. Why are you avoiding that?
I know why.... you can't.
You're not a voice for anyone but yourself, right? Will you remind yourself of that the next time you act otherwise?
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)much about Sanders. Why doesn't she go to his website to find out. They just vote and don't even know what they vote for except name recognition...really really stupid reason to vote.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)"This is an anti-establishment election. That is why Bernie and Trump are getting such support."
Except that Clinton is getting significantly more support than Bernie.
"If the Democrats run Clinton, an establishment, corporate candidate, then ALL of the anti-establishment vote will go to Trump."
If that were the only issue, then yes. But it's not; even anti-establishment people often value "sane" or "left-wing" as well, and those who do will vote for Clinton even so.
"If Bernie is the nominee, he will get most of the anti-establishment vote."
This is not at all a safe assumption. Trump is much better at populism than Sanders is. And while Clinton would win overwhelmingly among the majority of voters for whom establishment/anti-establishment is not the only game in town, Sanders might well not.
The reason Sanders does well in head-to-head polls is simple - the GOP know he'd be easier to beat than Clinton, and so all their attacks have been focussed on her. If he were to win the nomination, he'd suddenly have to put up with what she's been withstanding for decades, and would melt.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Sanders has been blacklisted in the media and in the DNC. Level the playing field and give Bernie as much free time as has been given the others and then make your assumptions.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Did not line up. SC results should be ignored.
We shall see which states today are to also be ignored as not really giving a damn about democracy via its citizens not lining up to vote.
SC is a low bar which should easily be exceeded, but I fear most of the south states will challenge its rejection of participatory democracy.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I've also read some of you posts about the 87%.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I notice you have no complaints about our sick democracy. 87% is sick.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)87% of SC are not.
GeorgeGist
(25,326 posts)seeing the loch ness monster.
Dustlawyer
(10,499 posts)Hillary will lose if nominated.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)Would be an embarrassment to Bernie. .
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)stupidicus
(2,570 posts)eom
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)The anti-establishment candidate has EVERY chance of winning. Let it be ours.
Turbineguy
(37,392 posts)it's about power. King of a shitheap is still king.
Vinca
(50,323 posts)If we have a "midterm" kind of turnout, we're toast.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)I'm sorry, I'm an Anti-Establishment voter myself and I, along with many others are smart enough to know that Trump is also apart of an Establishment of wealthy elites.
Why the fuck do so many people misunderstand the usage of the term Establishment around here?! The Establishment is not strictly political, it is completely caste based. It has to do with the wealthy that have their hands in too many places.
So let's be clear, Hillary is Establishment, but SO IS TRUMP.
Bernie is the only Anti-Establishment candidate and this OP suggesting that Trump is anti-establishment is misleading. Sure there's a lot of people who see him as his own man that doesn't take money from anyone but the truth is... yes he does. lol Trump is shit.
Nuff said.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Country be damned. When The Donald trounces the Queen then maybe they'll see.
Response to pdsimdars (Original post)
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