There are two candidates in this race that support single-payer.

[jeff47]

Sanders and Trump.

How fucked up is that?

[JaneyVee]

1. Hilariousness.

[sufrommich]

7. Right? Odd bedfellows indeed.nt

[thereismore]

2. Really? trump? nt

[jeff47]

6. Yep.

In 1999, during his short-lived 2000 Reform Party presidential bid, Trump told CNN's Larry King: "If you can’t take care of your sick in the country, forget it, it’s all over. ... I believe in universal healthcare."

As his popularity in the Republican primary has gone up, he's backed further and further away from this stance. But when not campaigning for the 2016 Republican nomination, he's supported single payer.

Politifact now calls it half-true based on his more recent statements.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/sep/11/reid-ribble/donald-trump-wants-replace-obamacare-single-payer-/

[Adrahil]

13. Universal Health Care != Single Payer.

Single payer is only one way to deliver universal health care.

Hillary supports universal care as well.

[jeff47]

22. No, she supports universal coverage.

Under her system, if you can't cover your deductible or co-pays you don't get care.

[arcane1]

32. Exactly. She ALWAYS calls it "coverage" and we all know what she means n/t

[Adrahil]

66. OK, fair enough.

I do not actually support a complete no-cost system. But that argument is for another day.

I do support no-deductible/no co-pay emergency and preventative care.

[jeff47]

68. This wanders dangerously into "another day"

but this:

I do support no-deductible/no co-pay emergency and preventative care.

means people will delay care until it is an emergency.

I had to have two infected cysts removed. Since I can afford the deductible, I did it.

If I could not afford the deductible, I'd have to wait until sepsis set in so that it is an emergency. And much more expensive (and dangerous).

[Hoyt]

3. The "plan" Trump has released sure doesn't look like single payer.

[jeff47]

8. The government pays the bills in the end.

He routes it through a tax rebate.

[Hoyt]

11. Well, that is essentially a voucher system, not single payer.

[jeff47]

14. It's inefficient, convoluted and awkward, but it still means one payer in the end. (nt)

[Hoyt]

21. No it does not, not in the context of single payer like Medicare-for-all.

Under Trump's so-called plan, there are still insurance companies doing all the things insurance companies do now.

[jeff47]

25. Single-payer does not require there to be no insurance companies.

They just add cost an inefficiency, so they are not typically include in single-payer plans. But the government is still paying the bills.

It would be vaguely like a medicare-for-all where the government outsources the administration of Medicare. Kinda like most big companies actually pay for their own health insurance that is administered by an insurance company.

[Hoyt]

35. Actually, single-payer in the context of Medicare-for-all does require that. Under Trump's

"plan," the insurance companies would be making profits just like they do now off managing risks. There would be Blue Cross, Cigna, etc., marketing insurance plans to people. If anything, Trump's plan is more like the ACA with tax subsidies -- ie, rebates as you describe it. Most people wouldn't get any rebate/subsidy -- they'd pay premiums to Cigna, BCBS, United, etc.

Can we agree that Trump's plan is a scheme by a snake oil carnival barker?

[jeff47]

37. And I'm not claiming he wants medicare-for-all. I'm claiming his plan results

in the government being the one to pay for health care. That, by definition, is single-payer.

It's a shitty and cumbersome way to get there. It still gets there.

Can we agree that Trump's plan is a scheme by a snake oil carnival barker?

How dare you insult carnival barkers!!

[dsc]

27. It isn't refundable

and thus wouldn't pay for those who only owe a little bit of taxes. Something that even a cursory look would have revealed BTW.

[jeff47]

33. He's not calling for a repeal of Medicaid.

Again, it's a shitty, inefficient plan. But it exists.

[stevenleser]

48. You're not understanding what dsc is saying here. I outlined it in my #45 below. nt

[dsc]

61. He sure is for anyone who has the expansion

in many states single adults have no access to Medicaid and those with children only have such access with incomes that are penury.

[stevenleser]

50. Exactly. Tax deductible doesnt mean you get that money. It means a refund of those taxes you pay

but for most people that will not equal the full premium of a decent health insurance plan.

If your total tax burden equals the full premium of an outstanding health insurance plan, you likely don't need the help.

[jcgoldie]

4. very fucked up

As in incorrect.

[sufrommich]

5. Trump does not support single payer. In fact,the only thing he has supported

so far is dismantling the ACA and replacing it with allowing insurance companies to cross state borders. This is the same "fix" all of the GOP favor.

[jeff47]

10. Nope.

In 1999, during his short-lived 2000 Reform Party presidential bid, Trump told CNN's Larry King: "If you can’t take care of your sick in the country, forget it, it’s all over. ... I believe in universal healthcare."

As he has become more popular in the GOP primary, he's backed away from that position. His current position is to refund health insurance expenses via taxes. Which would create a very inefficient and convoluted system where the government pays for everyone's health care.

[sufrommich]

12. Making premium payments tax deductible isn't

universal healthcare. God,this is just getting pathetic.

[jeff47]

19. And if the premiums were essentially 'free', you'd get a 100% coverage plan, right?

God,this is just getting pathetic.

I agree. It's pathetic one of our candidates is to the right of Trump on one issue.

[ieoeja]

65. Tax-free premiums would still not be 'free'.

If I delete $10,000 from my taxable income, I do not cut my taxes $10,000. I cut my taxes by the amount of tax I would have paid on that $10,000. So if my top tax rate is 29%, I would save $2,900. My premiums would still end up costing me $7,100.

However, in 2000 Trump did write that we should implement a health care plan similar to Canada's which is free. So who knows which way he would fly were he actually in office.

[Glamrock]

67. The premiums would be tax deductible,

not rebate-able (probably not a word, I know). If it was a rebate it would be "essentially" free. Not the case here. You may pay 8-12000 for insurance, your taxes would never drop that much. Make sense? Hope it helps.

[gcomeau]

15. Only in the sense that at one time or another...

...Trump has supported every position under the sun.

[greymouse]

18. gcomeau

You mean Hillary, not Trump, don't you?

[gcomeau]

23. Well, not this specific time since this thread was about Trump and Sanders.

But yeah, Hillary did a 180 on Single Payer too as soon as she figured out she couldn't out-progressive Bernie on it. So in that sense she's the more Trump-ish here since he also used to support it and now is parroting all kinds of ridiculous GOP healthcare nonsense.

[greymouse]

16. ha ha ha ha ha

[thesquanderer]

17. Trump used to, I don't think he does any more.

But one thing the two candidates have in common is that they don't take big money from the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Which might explain why no other candidate goes near it.

[Motown_Johnny]

20. Trump can tun to Hillary's left on money in politics and the Iraq war too.

It will be a terrible thing to see if Hillary is our nominee.

[stevenleser]

24. Incorrect. Trump released his Health plan this week and it isnt in the same Universe as single-payer

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform

HEALTHCARE REFORM TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

Since March of 2010, the American people have had to suffer under the incredible economic burden of the Affordable Care Act—Obamacare. This legislation, passed by totally partisan votes in the House and Senate and signed into law by the most divisive and partisan President in American history, has tragically but predictably resulted in runaway costs, websites that don’t work, greater rationing of care, higher premiums, less competition and fewer choices. Obamacare has raised the economic uncertainty of every single person residing in this country. As it appears Obamacare is certain to collapse of its own weight, the damage done by the Democrats and President Obama, and abetted by the Supreme Court, will be difficult to repair unless the next President and a Republican congress lead the effort to bring much-needed free market reforms to the healthcare industry.

But none of these positive reforms can be accomplished without Obamacare repeal. On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare.

However, it is not enough to simply repeal this terrible legislation. We will work with Congress to make sure we have a series of reforms ready for implementation that follow free market principles and that will restore economic freedom and certainty to everyone in this country. By following free market principles and working together to create sound public policy that will broaden healthcare access, make healthcare more affordable and improve the quality of the care available to all Americans.

Any reform effort must begin with Congress. Since Obamacare became law, conservative Republicans have been offering reforms that can be delivered individually or as part of more comprehensive reform efforts. In the remaining sections of this policy paper, several reforms will be offered that should be considered by Congress so that on the first day of the Trump Administration, we can start the process of restoring faith in government and economic liberty to the people.

Congress must act. Our elected representatives in the House and Senate must:

Completely repeal Obamacare. Our elected representatives must eliminate the individual mandate. No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to.
Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.
Allow individuals to fully deduct health insurance premium payments from their tax returns under the current tax system. Businesses are allowed to take these deductions so why wouldn’t Congress allow individuals the same exemptions? As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance. We must review basic options for Medicaid and work with states to ensure that those who want healthcare coverage can have it.
Allow individuals to use Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Contributions into HSAs should be tax-free and should be allowed to accumulate. These accounts would become part of the estate of the individual and could be passed on to heirs without fear of any death penalty. These plans should be particularly attractive to young people who are healthy and can afford high-deductible insurance plans. These funds can be used by any member of a family without penalty. The flexibility and security provided by HSAs will be of great benefit to all who participate.
Require price transparency from all healthcare providers, especially doctors and healthcare organizations like clinics and hospitals. Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure.
Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.
Remove barriers to entry into free markets for drug providers that offer safe, reliable and cheaper products. Congress will need the courage to step away from the special interests and do what is right for America. Though the pharmaceutical industry is in the private sector, drug companies provide a public service. Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers.
The reforms outlined above will lower healthcare costs for all Americans. They are simply a place to start. There are other reforms that might be considered if they serve to lower costs, remove uncertainty and provide financial security for all Americans. And we must also take actions in other policy areas to lower healthcare costs and burdens. Enforcing immigration laws, eliminating fraud and waste and energizing our economy will relieve the economic pressures felt by every American. It is the moral responsibility of a nation’s government to do what is best for the people and what is in the interest of securing the future of the nation.

Providing healthcare to illegal immigrants costs us some $11 billion annually. If we were to simply enforce the current immigration laws and restrict the unbridled granting of visas to this country, we could relieve healthcare cost pressures on state and local governments.

To reduce the number of individuals needing access to programs like Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Program we will need to install programs that grow the economy and bring capital and jobs back to America. The best social program has always been a job – and taking care of our economy will go a long way towards reducing our dependence on public health programs.

Finally, we need to reform our mental health programs and institutions in this country. Families, without the ability to get the information needed to help those who are ailing, are too often not given the tools to help their loved ones. There are promising reforms being developed in Congress that should receive bi-partisan support.

To reform healthcare in America, we need a President who has the leadership skills, will and courage to engage the American people and convince Congress to do what is best for the country. These straightforward reforms, along with many others I have proposed throughout my campaign, will ensure that together we will Make America Great Again.

[jeff47]

28. His plan effectively has the government pay for your health insurance via tax refund.

If it's 'free', you're going to get a 100% coverage plan. Leading to a cumbersome and inefficient single-payer plan.

[stevenleser]

36. It's not single payer. The government does not pay non premium costs. Thats at least dual payer. nt

[jeff47]

38. I'd get a 100% coverage plan if the government paid for it. Wouldn't you? (nt)

[stevenleser]

45. No, not necessarily. First off, tax deductible doesnt mean paid, by the way.

Lets consider your proposition. The full premiums for a cadillac healthcare plan could exceed $30,000k. Do you have that amount of taxes to deduct? Something tells me most people dont.

The maximum amount you would get back is the total taxes you pay. If your total tax burden is $6,000, thats the maximum amount the government would give you towards whatever your total premium is. What kind of healthcare plan would that buy if you are footing the entire bill? Not one for yourself and a spouse and a kid. Not a good one anyway.

[jeff47]

51. You vastly overstate the cost.

My current employer-based HSA plan is $6k per year in premiums with a $4k per year deductible. Zero in co-pays or co-insurance. For a family of 4.

What kind of healthcare plan would that buy

I do not claim anywhere that Trump's plan is a good idea.

I cite his plan as evidence of just how fucked up our politics currently are. Trump's plan actually has a mechanism where it could get single payer, while the leading Democrat is campaigning on "absolutely not".

How the fuck did we let Trump get to the left of us on anything?

[stevenleser]

53. 6K a year is likely for your portion, not the entire premium. And it would not be single payer.

That is not what single payer means.

[jeff47]

56. All single-payer means is the government foots the bill in the end.

You don't have to kill all insurance companies to get single-payer. You just have to have the government be the one paying the bills in the end.

As for my portion on the insurance, I'm aware of the company's portion. Because there's a massive increase in premium when you add anyone to your plan. The company only subsidizes employee. Employee + 1 is far more than double employee, and the premium goes up by the same amount for employee + 2.

Again, the point is to show just how screwed up our current politics are. Trump's lousy plan that will never come to be is to the left of our frontrunner's lousy plan that will never come to be.

[stevenleser]

59. And they dont foot the bill. The non-premium costs are paid by you or the insurance carrier. That is

three different payers, the government, you and the insurance carrier.

[jeff47]

62. And when I 'buy' a $0 co-pay, $0 deductible plan via tax refund I'm not "paying anything".

It's effectively a tax increase to me....just like those evil single-payer plans from the communists.

And my insurance company is sure not going to eat the costs.

That leaves government.

Again, the entire point is Trump's plan that will never pass is to the left of our frontrunner's plan that will never pass. He actually has a (very shitty and costly) way to do what Clinton opposes.

[stevenleser]

63. You have a $4000 deductible so you are paying plenty. A total zero cost plan is a cadillac

plan as I noted earlier and they cost upwards of $30K in premiums which is well beyond the total tax burden of most families and thus the government would not be reimbursing premiums for it.

[grossproffit]

26. Any links to support your opinion?

In regards to Trump.

[jeff47]

30. They're upthread.

He explicitly supported it in 1999. He's backed off from that. His latest plan essentially pays for premiums via tax refunds.

[Mass]

29. You fall for Trump's pandering. He said that once, he was supporting single payer

but he does not support it in the US.

Now, can we stop taking Trump at his word. Even if he had not changed his mind for single payer in the US, there is NO WAY to know what he thinks. He makes up things as he speaks, has no official policy papers. So, he is worse than other politicians.

It is not that he may change his mind when elected president. It is that he is lying to people to take the most advantageous position depending of whom he speaks to. He is worse than most other politicians and my opinion of the political world is really very low.

[jeff47]

34. He actually released a plan.

It essentially pays for health insurance via tax refunds. Giving people incentive to buy 100% coverage plans.

It's horrifically inefficient, will have plenty of "cracks", but would end up having the government paying for health care.

[Mass]

41. He does not say how much he pays. He does not say explicitely it will be 100 %

and it would not be, because it would be an unsustainable position. Typical GOP plans offer a tax refund up to a certain limit (generally around $3,000 per person). This is a lot less than people can get insurance for.

And this is not the definition of single payer anyway.

In addition, this plan is so non detailed that believing a word of what Trump says is silly. I do not agree with much of what Rubio says, but Trump is a conman, so what he says has little meaning.

Frankly, I find sad for the United States that somebody like him is a serious candidate.

[jeff47]

43. Hence the second line in my OP.

Frankly, I find sad for the United States that somebody like him is a serious candidate.

Hence the second line in my OP.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Trump just announced his healthcare program.

He's disavowed earlier statements and has gotten on cue with the RNC. No universal nothing. Go get your own healthcare you f'ing peasant.

[jeff47]

40. Except his plan pays insurance premiums via tax deductions.

If your premium was 'free', wouldn't you get a plan that paid for 100% of everything?

[Mass]

42. Did he actually say the premium was free?

Because I have found nothing like that. (see my post above)

BTW, why are you promoting this insane individual. I thought this was supposed to be a Democratic site.

[jeff47]

44. I'm not promoting him. I'm using his plan to demonstrate just how fucked up our politics are. (nt)

[Warren Stupidity]

46. No. He's scrapped all the ACA. And even in the aca

Premiums are only one part of your costs. Individual out of pocket expenses now generally exceed individual premiums. Without the ACA reforms insurance plans will revert to paying even less of the bill, and a plethora of really shitty plans will be marketed to the naive.

[jeff47]

47. I'm not saying he keeps the ACA.

Look, his plan is a delusional piece of shit. As he is.

But the effect of giving everyone a refund for their premium is people are going to buy plans that cover lots more. There's no reason to save on the premium via co-pays or deductibles.

[brooklynite]

49. UNREC

Trump has never said he supports single-payer. He says he supports "health care for all" but doesn't in any way support that.

His specific policies (from his website):

Completely repeal Obamacare. Our elected representatives must eliminate the individual mandate. No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to.

Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.

Allow individuals to fully deduct health insurance premium payments from their tax returns under the current tax system. Businesses are allowed to take these deductions so why wouldn’t Congress allow individuals the same exemptions? As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance. We must review basic options for Medicaid and work with states to ensure that those who want healthcare coverage can have it.

Allow individuals to use Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Contributions into HSAs should be tax-free and should be allowed to accumulate. These accounts would become part of the estate of the individual and could be passed on to heirs without fear of any death penalty. These plans should be particularly attractive to young people who are healthy and can afford high-deductible insurance plans. These funds can be used by any member of a family without penalty. The flexibility and security provided by HSAs will be of great benefit to all who participate.

Require price transparency from all healthcare providers, especially doctors and healthcare organizations like clinics and hospitals. Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure.

Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.

Remove barriers to entry into free markets for drug providers that offer safe, reliable and cheaper products. Congress will need the courage to step away from the special interests and do what is right for America. Though the pharmaceutical industry is in the private sector, drug companies provide a public service. Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers.

[jeff47]

52. Actually, he has said he supports single-payer.

In 1999 he explicitly said he did. Politifact link is upthread.

His current plan is awkward, cumbersome, inefficient and stupid. It will never pass. But it has a way to result in the government paying for everything.

How fucked up is it when Trump manages to get to the left of one of our candidates?

[brooklynite]

55. ...and in 1991 he said he rejected David Duke...

Amazing how many people disparage any promise Clinton makes but will accept a 20 year old line from Trump.

[jeff47]

57. I never claimed Trump was a good man. He's an asshole.

What is fucked up is he has managed to produce a plan that will never pass that is to the left of our frontrunner's plan that will never pass.

We should not have let our party degrade to the point where fucking Trump is to the left.

[brooklynite]

69. How a plan requiring private insurance called "Single Payer"?

[jeff47]

71. If the government is the payer, it's single-payer.

In any company with more than about 100 employees, it's cheaper for the company to provide health insurance via self-insuring. So any company that you worked for that had more than about 100 employees, your "insurance company" was actually your employer. The company that issues you insurance cards and handles your claims is just administering your company's health insurance. Your employer is the one who actually pays the bills (and your employer gets re-insurance to handle any incredibly expensive cases like cancer).

You can construct a national single-payer plan in the same way. The private insurance companies would be more-or-less administrators for the plan. They could take on some of the risk for additional cost from the government, or the government could assume all risk.

It's still single-payer because the government is still the one paying, even though private insurance companies exist.

[restorefreedom]

54. also both anti tpp

also both not into regime change
also both want to get the donor class out of politics

not anyone else

THIS is why trump will win in a landslide if bernie is not the nom

[Agnosticsherbet]

58. Wrong. Trump has released his plan and it isn't Single Payer.

Trump Health Plan Recycles GOP Staples And Adds A Populist Wrinkle
Republican front-runner Donald Trump released a seven-point plan to change the country's health care system that includes several familiar GOP proposals and one that puts him in agreement with, believe it or not, Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders.

Right off the bat, Trump calls for the elimination of the Affordable Care Act, ringing the repeal bell that has been popular among a wide swath of Republicans and that has fueled dozens of votes to overturn Obamacare in Congress, including another failed attempt when lawmakers reconvened first thing in January.

The prime target is the individual mandate, the requirement that almost every American have or buy health insurance — or pay a penalty. "No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to," the Trump proposal declares.
****
Finally, Trump throws his support behind the importation of drugs to cut costs. "Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers," the proposal says. This is the one where Trump and Sanders have common ground. Sanders supports the importation of drugs from Canada and his website boasts about a 1999 bus trip that took a bunch of Americans up north to get better deals.

His plan does not support single payer. It openes up state borders so Health Insurance Companies can sell insurance anywhere.

His seven points are in the link.

It is not Singlepayer.

[jeff47]

60. His plan pays for premiums via giving you money back on taxes.

If the government effectively pays for it, you're going to get a plan that has $0 co-pays and $0 deductible.

Ta-da! Massively expensive, awkward and cumbersome way to get single-payer.

Again, the point is our current politics are so screwed up that Trump's plan that will never pass is to the left of our frontrunner's plan that will never pass.

[Agnosticsherbet]

64. Read the article. Buy from insurance and get a deduction or HSA...

Some Trump proposals would change the tax treatment of health coverage.

One would let individuals who buy insurance deduct its cost, as employers do for coverage they make available to workers. Many health economists argue that the opposite tack — eliminating the employer deduction — would be more beneficial. The employer tax break obscures the cost of health coverage and thereby contributes to health cost inflation. The benefits from the break also tends to accrue to more highly paid people. Under Obamacare, people with low-to-moderate incomes can get a tax credit to help defray the cost of insurance purchased on marketplaces.

The second proposal argues in favor of letting individuals take advantage of Health Savings Accounts, or HSAs. But that's something that is already possible, and the accounts are quite popular. Right now, those accounts are tied to high-deductible health plans.

Neither a deduction nor an HSA are single payer.

So, no, it isn't single payer, whether one has a HSA or seeks a deduction form the government as businesses do.

[Wednesdays]

70. This afternoon I was driving home with my (adult) kid

And we came across a house that had both Trump and Bernie signs in their yard.

Since my kid couldn't reconcile that apparent contradiction, I explained, "The two of them actually have some common ground. Not a lot, but just a little."