The Lie

[H2O Man]

I’d like to comment briefly on Hillary Clinton’s description of Nancy Reagan. I found it troubling, for several reasons. The most obvious is that it was an outright lie, which was insulting to a lot of good people. People were suffering and dying during the Reagan era, and the sad fact is that neither Ronald nor Nancy cared in the least. It had to hurt the family members and friends who heard this outright lie today.

A second reason is because of something I noted in an OP on March 1:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511380922

I am convinced that the Clinton campaign has written off the progressives, both in the Democratic Party and Democratic Left. I believe that significant parts of the Clinton campaign are planning to get votes from conservative republicans, if Trump wins their primary.

Today’s incident fits that like a glove.

[Metric System]

1. At the potential of alienating the LGBT community? No way.

[H2O Man]

5. Respectfully disagree.

I'd expect Mitt Romney to say that, not Clinton.

Do you find it troubling? Or do you think she merely "mis-spoke"?

[Arazi]

23. She didn't misspeak. NPR just said she meant to reference Alzheimer's

problem is Alzheimer's wasn't stigmatized and doesn't fit Clintons actual quote

“It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s,” Mrs. Clinton, who was attending Mrs. Reagan’s funeral in Simi Valley, Calif., told MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell. “And because of both President and Mrs. Reagan – in particular, Mrs. Reagan – we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it. Nobody wanted anything to do with it.

[DeadLetterOffice]

41. Yeah, that's my problem with that too.

And I painfully remember the 80's...

PLUS - did anyone in the Reagan family use the word "Alzheimer's" to describe Ronnie when he was still a sitting president? Didn't all that focus on the appalling tragedy that is Alzheimer's Disease happen AFTER he left office?

[ebayfool]

128. Yes. She helped hide his declining mental acuity while he was a SITTING PRESIDENT.

She had done some work for Alzheimer's, but that's not being a decent person - that's following her selfish interests. She had no interest in stem cell research until it affect her personally.

So, even Clinton's "apology" is a lie!

[tk2kewl]

143. Seems she still thinks her nomination is inevitable

A few gay friends have been Hillary supporters. I'm wondering if they are feeling differently now. Referring back to your mobile post: it seems as though Clinton doesn't seem to know how, or care to balance it for the primary, and continues to operate as if she will get the nomination and all those she alienates along the way will just fall in line.

[BillZBubb]

7. You clearly don't understand how the Clintons work.

The gay community will get over it and fall in line. Heck many support her even after her DOMA embarrassment. The Clintons are expert at using various groups inside the party.

[berningman]

11. something to be proud of

[Jarqui]

80. I agree with you. Once the primary is over, where can they go?

Kind of under the bus for the general election to attract voters who still have a choice.

Trump is clearly a racist. Not many minorities can support him. That's the vast majority of 37% of the country. Let's say they get 73% = 27% of the 37%

That means they only have to get 23.001% of the remaining 63% of the white vote. = 36.5% of the white vote - which is achievable if she moves to the center during the general election.

I suspect that's the big picture strategy. They're bound to have something broken down for the battle ground states - some sort of common winning policies among them.

[MNBrewer]

98. I haven't voted for a Clinton since DOMA

and won't start now.

[DemocraticWing]

119. Ridiculous. Half of us are voting for Bernie already.

[Lucretius]

94. count one old alienated gay man

I can never ever ever bring myself to vote for her. Think of Martin Delaney, think of Cleve Jones, think of Harvey Milk, think of the quilt and the names project! How could I?

[BallardWA]

114. The Quilt!

Thank you for bringing this back into our consciousness.
My memories of 1984-1986 are centered around St. Vincent's and Lenox Hill.
When I left NY for Seattle, AIDS continued to rage unabated.
The quilt came to my new town, and as I minced my way around the squares
I found the first tangible evidence that those whom we had loved and lost
were not forgotten.

[Laughing Mirror]

155. That makes two of us, Lucretius

Surely we are not the only ones.

[Betty Karlson]

201. You know that saying about "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"?

Just wait until this guy here gets his dress on, and then try to piss me off. That scorned woman has nothing on me.

And I'm not that old. I am a Millennial! (But with lost of older friends who sadly lived through the AIDS epidemic.)

[Major Hogwash]

206. Is that like the saying that goes "Scorn me once, shame on me, scorn me twice, and I'll . . .

. . . run again, but this time I'll make it rain fire on the entire face of the earth with napalm?"

[daleanime]

2. I think you're right.

[H2O Man]

19. Yep.

The Clinton campaign seems to take a bit of glee in assuming that we'll be stuck with no where else to go. And they wouldn't care if progressives simply stay home on election day.

[yourpaljoey]

3. oooooooooooooooooo... cynical. I like it.

[H2O Man]

20. Thanks.

I don't think I'm cynical. Rather, to paraphrase Jimi, I think I'm experienced.

[Arazi]

4. I said that in a few earlier posts today so I fully agree

she completely expects we'll still vote for her in November so she can risk this in order to try to get Republican cross over votes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1469838


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1469928

[H2O Man]

22. Right.

Thank you.

[roguevalley]

51. she won't get to the mom this way

[noiretextatique]

174. Three of my Hillary-leaning gay friends

Said they'd be voting for Sanders.

[Octafish]

6. Absolutely speaking the language of Compassionate Conservatism.

Why not? She thinks she has the liberals and progressives in the bag -- they're not gonna vote for Drumpf.

She forgets the middle step: Getting in that position.

[H2O Man]

25. Right.

The Clinton campaign assumes we will have no where else to go.

I expect to go to DC to see Bernie take the oath of office.

[stage left]

156. I expect I will watch it on TV

but i will still be thrilled.

[sabrina 1]

118. She's miscalculating this time. People will not vote for her as they used to do in the past. They

will focus on Congress where a real revolution is now happening. She is behind the times, using old methodologies that don't apply to today's political scenario.

She will not win the nomination anyhow. So it's a moot point. And if she thinks Republicans would ever vote for her, she is dreaming.

I love in a Conservative area of NY State. The people here are not rabid right wingers, but working class, farmers, etc but you cannot mention the name 'Clinton' here. These are the people she is expecting to vote for her? And if they won't, surely she doesn't expect the rabid Right to do so.

[bread_and_roses]

138. I'm in upstate NY

Also in a conservative area - Southern Tier. Just giving you a wave & shout-out - glad you're in my state, I didn't know.

[sabrina 1]

204. Hi! I'm seeing Bernie signs up here in the middle of FARMS. In the middle of nowhere! But not a

single Hillary or Trump sign. Glad you're here too. I was surprised to find out that Bernie is ahead of Hillary in NY by 2 points last poll I saw. I didn't think he had a chance here, now I'm psyched. Found several Bernie groups within driving distance here too. And found out many of my friends up here are Bernie supporters. I didn't know and never asked, but they volunteered the info which was great.

[bvar22]

166. "Miscalculating" is a Hillary tradition,

...and I'm being nice.

[Fumesucker]

8. Clinton does the best by far in the Confederacy

Her firewall, bless her heart.

[H2O Man]

9. Right.

This evening, I told my cousin that her strength is found in the bible belt.

[bigtree]

14. her margins there come from BLACK voters

...highly offensive to describe them as CONFEDERATES.

I'm surprised to find that distortion on a post complaining about 'lies'.

[Fumesucker]

21. Where did I use the term "confederates"? Please be specific.

[bigtree]

26. slick

[Fumesucker]

40. You made an accusation

Now you can't back it up.

[malthaussen]

44. Mmm, the "Confederacy" may be just a shorthand way to say "Southern States,"

... but I agree, rather unfelicitous when referring to black voters.

-- Mal

[bigtree]

71. as I think about it

...it's more than 'unfelicitous' to refer to Democrats there as part of the 'confederacy,' obviously an attempt to equate that association with the worst of conservative politics.

[malthaussen]

75. Well, I tend to understatement.

There's enough passion and partisanship floating around DU these days to make me even more inclined in that direction.

I'll agree with the unspoken point, however: those who oppose Mrs Clinton would do well to consider that writing off black voters will not win them any friends.

-- Mal

[kristopher]

189. It is a perfectly valid predicate to describe a system emerging from feudalism

The slave states had what was essentially a feudal social structure. The legacy of that feudalistic value set still percolates through and permeates the society there.

[BillZBubb]

10. Yep, the whole praising of nancy was part of the campaign.

Triangulation 101.

[H2O Man]

27. Yep.

A disgusting part.

[BernieforPres2016]

12. I'm not buying this theory

Actual Republicans despise Hillary Clinton as much as they do Barack Obama, and she knows it. She will NEVER get their votes. Hillary and the DNC are corporatists who think Bernie supporters have nowhere else to go.

[H2O Man]

31. Some do.

But the Goldman Sachs types don't. Do you really think they have more in common with Trump than Hillary? That they would prefer he wins the presidency, rather than Hillary?

[Maedhros]

33. You're forgetting her ego.

Last edited Fri Mar 11, 2016, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe she believes that if she capitulates enough, and mouths enough conservative platitudes, then she can sway some sector of moderate Republicans to her cause.

[roguevalley]

56. we may be over thinking here. I just think she is stupid here

[Mbrow]

91. Thats a good point.

How many intelligent people in the past have been blind to the trunk barreling down on them till it hits? Honestly I don't think she would win the GE, I hope to hell I'm wrong because While I think she's in the corporations pockets She be a hell of a lot better then tRump.

[bigtree]

13. she hasn't writtten off progressives

...and she admitted she was wrong in what she said about the Reagans and AIDS.

I'm sure it fits into this opportunistic rhetoric to call her a liar on this, but her immediate retraction doesn't make for a very good or effective lie, no matter how much it fits into her opponent's campaign strategy to paint her as a liar or unconcerned about these issues.

[tularetom]

24. She admitted she was wrong because she got busted

Nobody ever "misspeaks". She lied. She thought nobody would remember. Its a disturbing habit with her. It may in fact be pathological.

[bigtree]

29. you mean she was corrected

so what?

The retraction occurred in a matter of hours. Obviously the statement wasn't something she was invested in.

Has Sanders ever said something offensive that he's been compelled to retract?

[DeadLetterOffice]

49. She said they PIONEERED a conversation that they...

...actually SUPPRESSED FOR A DECADE and which led to the DEATHS OF MY FRIENDS.

"Misspoke" and "retraction" really aren't gonna cut it for me on this one.

[bigtree]

73. she's admitted she was wrong

...you do what you want.

I've also experienced deaths from AIDS among my immediate family and friends.

[MNBrewer]

99. She didn't misspeak. She made shit up.

How can you read what she said and not believe that she was actually intending to say what she said? When I read it I thought "no, that can't be right", so I watched the video and saw it for myself. She was convinced that the Reagans were bringing up a conversation about HIV/AIDS in the 1980s.

[billhicks76]

116. Wrong? That's A Laugh

She wasn't opining on something she didn't know about. She made statements she KNEW were wrong. That's defined as a LIE. And she lies so much she doesn't even know the difference anymore.

[H2O Man]

34. I really like and respect you.

So I'm sorry that you find yourself in a position of trying to defend this. I know it goes against your grain.

[bigtree]

65. she apologized and reversed her statement, full stop

...I'd give the same for Sanders.

Despite the temptation to respond in kind over the course of the 'liar,liar' campaign here against Hillary, I have not called Sanders' obvious distortions 'lies,' so it's not hard to accept the defense that she's made a misstatement.

I've said this before on one of your threads. My interests don't begin or end with the politics practiced here, especially in elections.

[H2O Man]

67. Thank you.

You are an honorable man. I appreciate your contributions.

[skepticscott]

96. A "sorry I got caught lying"

Isn't any kind of apology worth respecting. In no credible way could she have mistakenly believed that what she was saying was actually true.

[Logical]

127. You once said "Sanders' campaign admits to lying their asses off in a fundraising email" and....

Made a whole post about itl, forgiveness? Bullshit!

[Loudestlib]

42. That line about the Reagans being strong advocates for stem cells.

That's not the way I remember.

[Bluenorthwest]

113. She has yet to clarify their record on HIV and AIDS, she needs to do so. In addition she

credited both Reagans for this work and obviously Ron did no Alzheimer's advocacy as he had Alzheimer's and was out of the public eye. He also did no stem cells advocacy, again only she did that. After he was out of the picture. So 'the Reagans' were not strong advocates for those two things and both were villains in the AIDS crisis.

[Logical]

126. She knew she lied, she just did not plan on being caught so quick. Nt

[WillyT]

15. Yep...

& Rec !!!

[H2O Man]

35. Thanks!

[FlatBaroque]

16. That makes a lot of sense, and the retraction and apology

on Twitter will be seen by far fewer eyeballs.

[reformist2]

18. And this way, she gets to be all things to all people! (Or so she thinks...)

[H2O Man]

36. Right.

The retraction & apology are weak. Very weak.

[JackRiddler]

17. What you say is true but I don't think that's what happened here.

Blathering and pandering, pandering and blathering. She can no longer keep her own bullshit straight. Sort of like Trump, except she gets penalized for it. How unfair!

[H2O Man]

38. Very good.

I do not believe such "mistakes" happen.

[JackRiddler]

100. Oh, sure they do.

I see no gain for her in this transaction. She was totally trying to pander to the Reagan voters, by plan, but what she said was imporovised. And out came this bullshit. Of course if she had any respect for the victims, or any integrity, something would have stopped her. So really it's a combo of sucking up to the right (as you say) and being stupid, and being hollow. A perfect storm. Total meltdown. We may see a chain of these coming up as the campaign veers into damage control. They're fucking up on one of the constituencies they've been treating as if it was their property. Can only hope the machinery unravels fast enough, because Tuesday really is the whole game now.

[TheProgressive]

28. republicans will *never* vote for Clinton...

I live in a majority republican county in CA. Even in 2006, they were saying that 'Hillary Clinton will take their guns'. This is what they were saying in 2006 -imagine what they are saying now...

[H2O Man]

45. That's simply untrue.

As a resident of NYS, I don't need to rely upon my impressions of generic republicans. When Hillary ran for re-election to the Senate, she won a huge percentage of republicans. These included the NRA types.

The republican establishment, by the way, is distinct from the NRA republicans. Their interests and Hillary's have a lot of overlap.

Hence, I stand by what I said, with zero risk of error.

[TheProgressive]

62. That's NY, I guess...

Yes, rich republicans see Clinton as one of their own - the 1%.

Elsewhere in the country, the 99% republicans, will never, repeat never, vote for Clinton...

As always, mileage does vary...

[H2O Man]

77. Again,

the numbers from NYS document that I am correct. Hillary won virtually all the upstate counties, meaning the average, everyday republicans voted for her -- in overwhelming numbers.

I do note that national republican figures frequently try to discount NYS.

[TheProgressive]

88. By chance, do you have those 'numbers' from NYS?

And, it's obvious that neither of us can predict the future...

But, finally, if it is a choice between Trump and Sanders, Sanders wins.
A choice between Trump and Clinton...?

[druidity33]

181. Yes but this Primary season

Hillary has been hammering Bernie on his stance on guns and NRA rating, setting herself up as to his left on the issue. Do you think that will have an affect on conservative Primary votes? Does NY have a closed Primary, I forget...

Living here in Western Massachusetts reminds me in many ways of when i was living in Buffalo, NY (A lot less snow and wind though ). The rural, farming, spacious, small town landscape... reaalllyy has a lot of conservative voters. Voters that hunt and like their guns.

[malthaussen]

53. Oh, I disagree.

I think it is a mistake to confuse the rabid, racist base with the greedy corporate tools. The latter are the ones Mrs Clinton would be addressing in this assessment.

-- Mal

[TheProgressive]

66. I updated my answer below...

In summary, yes, rich 1% republicans will of course vote for her. The rest of the 99% republicans - *never*....

[JackRiddler]

103. Oh sure they will.

Trump makes it possible. Clinton can sell the war mongering and the pious religiosity and do dog whistles on the social conservatism. But at the same time she has to treat the "fucking morons" of the left and the Democratic base as property. It explains a lot about the dynamics on this site the last few weeks - all the demands for loyalty oaths and the "resistance is futile" invective directed at the Sanders side.

[farleftlib]

30. A woman who openly embraces war criminal Henry Kissinger

would not blink an eye at whitewashing the disgraceful record of the Reagans on AIDS. Why she continuously kicks dirt in the faces of victims is what is truly troubling.

[H2O Man]

47. Well said.

Thank you.

[Dont call me Shirley]

32. KnR!

[H2O Man]

48. Thanks!

[malthaussen]

37. It does at least suggest something she might be hoping to gain.

Which was my question about the "misstatement." Somewhat Byzantine, but then the Clintons are consummate politicians.

So, your assessment is that this lie was informed more by mendacity than by fatigue or poor preparation? These were not off-the-cuff remarks, so she hasn't that excuse.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

52. Right.

These were prepared remarks, intended for a specific audience.

[malthaussen]

63. The difficulty I see with that is...

... in a matchup of Mrs Clinton vs Mr Trump, surely she already has the support of those Republicans who would be touched by eulogizing Mrs Reagan. So such pandering would seem to be overpreparation; but then, can Mrs Clinton ever feel secure?

-- Mal

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Her attempt at CYA by claiming she was talking about Alzheimers is pathetic.

But, certainly not surprising.

[H2O Man]

54. "Pathetic"

is kind.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. I'll add "obvious", and "calculated".

[H2O Man]

61. I agree!

[malthaussen]

69. Aw, c'mon, don't be shy...

... tell us what you really think.

-- Mal

[ibegurpard]

43. I think it was just ignorant pandering

To try to make herself look good.
No less offensive.

[H2O Man]

58. Respectfully disagree.

I find myself in full agreement with the Hillary supporters who like to point out how well-prepared she is.

[ibegurpard]

82. if you're right

And I don't think so just because I usually tend to go with the idea that the simplest explanation is the correct one, then that would make her evil.

[Ken Burch]

46. Just like Bill praising Nixon and Reagan to the skies at THEIR funerals. n/t.

[H2O Man]

60. Yep.

[Old Codger]

50. She is seriously

Mistaken, her assumptions are based, as far as I have seen,on her inevitability, she seems ot think that she has been measured for the crown and getting from here to there is a mere
formality.. She, and her cohorts didn't count on anything like what is happening..I seriously doubt she will stay in to the end, but then again if she does and the numbers are totally against her I will be very,very concerned as to what they may have planned.

[H2O Man]

64. I agree

on all points.

We are reaching a dangerous point in this election. The news out of Chicago is very disturbing.

[Old Codger]

70. In another post

I mention the similarities between the trump crowd and the run up by the nazi party and hitler, this is very similar and really startling that it can occur here...

[H2O Man]

74. I have been getting

dozens of up-dates on Chicago. Reminds me of '68.

I am hoping that any and all violence can be avoided. But these people feel justified in their violent outbursts.

[malthaussen]

84. On both sides, be it noted.

We have people crowing about how wonderful it is that the protesters clashed violently to shut down Mr Trump.

And even worse, and truly dumbfounding to me, we have supporters of Mrs Clinton claiming that the fact that some of the protesters were holding "Bernie" signs is a "win" for Mrs Clinton, which would seem to indicate that they are in more sympathy with Mr Trump and his supporters (whom he has been consistently inciting to violence), than those misguided individuals who seek to silence him.

And we wonder why so many of the young adopt the attitude of "A Plague a' both your houses?"

-- Mal

[haikugal]

78. I put nothing past them, nothing!!

[Old Codger]

121. I don't

They will try anything to win...

[zentrum]

55. Agree with you...

On this side of the Democratic Civil War now unfolding, she and her surrogates and Super delegates feel "Anybody but Sanders". We are "f#@king retarded" as Rahm said. That faction detests us.

But I also think they are genuinely shocked that we're having the effect we're having. They didn't really see us coming…..and so are floundering. Flip flop floundering.

[H2O Man]

68. Oh, yes, definitely.

Late last spring, they mistook Sanders's campaign for a silly attempt at a symbolic run. They had no idea what they were in store for.

[Dont call me Shirley]

57. Quite astute observation you have about Hil pandering to neocon voters.

[H2O Man]

72. Per neocons, see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511471916

[ljm2002]

76. Yes that is my take also...

...I had been wondering why she would have said what she said. I could not see what possible political advantage she thought she could gain from it. And then I realized: Of course, this was one of her "pivoting to the GE" moments. She wasn't playing to Democrats at all, she was making soothing noises towards Republicans by spouting revisionist history about their idol, Saint Reagan, and his wife Nancy.

Well Hillary, I don't think it is going to work. And I don't think it will help you in the primaries either.

Dumb.

[H2O Man]

79. Right.

It kind of blew up in her face. Really poor planning on her part.

[longship]

81. But it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I mean, she's running for the Democratic Party presidential nomination!

I see zero gain for this. And who in the Sam Hell running for president would express such an easily falsified opinion, especially one at the core principles of ones own party?

It makes no fucking sense. She could have said many nice things about Nancy Reagan with zero political damage. She chose this one.

Why? It makes no fucking sense at all.

[ibegurpard]

87. Because there's nothing

Nice to say about Nancy that's not frivolous. Hillary had decided she was going to bolster her standing by giving credit to Nancy for something really serious...was going to look all presidential and bipartisan and shit... and stepped right in it. What I find offensive is that she obviously doesn't even care enough about AIDS OR Alzheimers to have the basic background knowledge necessary to prevent such a gaffe.

[longship]

90. Pretty much my point. It was an unforced error.

A rather huge mistake in an election year by a candidate.

[H2O Man]

170. It was indeed

an unforced error. But it is particularly brutal. The indifference that so much of our country showed for the suffering of our family members was highlighted by Ron & Nancy. It is hard to put into words how terrible their attitude was. And it is unbelievable that anyone would try to pretend that Ron & Nancy were anything other than pure evil with their smug indifference.

[MuseRider]

83. I agree.

As a nurse I recall how upsetting that time was. Scared patients, return patients because we could not heal them. None of us could figure out, once it was a real obvious disease process targeting specific people, why there was no response when people were begging for help. How this escaped her is beyond me.

My brother died of AIDS 20 years after the Reagan administration acted so callously. The Reagan administration's reaction and non action is difficult enough to remember but to have that revised to the good is offensive beyond description and Hillary had to know better than that. She had to.

[TeeYiYi]

97. Scared patients...

Your patients were my friends. They were so obviously sicker than anything I'd ever seen,...they were afraid, and desperate...and sick. They were so cold; walking around with blankets. I think they knew they were dying. I didn't... Maybe I did. They had walking pneumonia and Kaposi's Sarcoma... and fear. And a sense of capitulation. They were young. I was young...

I gave them blankets and hugs...and Valium to ease their fears and hopefully to make them just a little more comfortable as they faced their mortality alone. Even with friends and family close by, we all face death alone. My friends had no family close by... they had me, and a few other friends from the gay community...

I remember Wyatt. He wanted so badly just to be home with his mother while he was sick. His family lived just one state over... He never made it home. I held him until the Valium kicked in... He died the next day.

This scourge decimated my community and in the process, the world as I had come to know it.

I hate that a politician brought all of these scars to the forefront, for what?... To pander for votes? To appeal to Reagan republicans who might be on the fence?... So shallow. So hurtful.

TYY

[MuseRider]

104. Powerful.

Those were terrifying years for so very many people. ((((Hugs))) to you for helping them. Dying is hard work, especially when you are frightened and no one knows how to make you better or even what it is that you have. You did the work many of us should have been able to and I can't help but think if this had been brought to the attention of our country in a better way we would have done better. We tried in the ICU's but they kept coming back sicker and sicker. Here in the center of the country there were not so many. We saw mostly pneumocystis and we had rarely seen much of that before.

I am so jaded anymore but found this to be like a sock in the gut. All for a few votes.

[TeeYiYi]

107. .

TYY

[H2O Man]

171. Thank you.

It brought up a lot of painful memories for a lot of us. I appreciate your sharing your family's experience.

[LS_Editor]

85. I lost an uncle to AIDS.

I am a member of the community she insulted today.

I was already a Bernie Sanders supporter, and after this and her lies about Sanders during the last debate it is very unlikely she will get my vote should she be the Democratic nominee. My state always goes Democratic, and I am beyond disgusted hy her.

I am done.

[Kittycat]

129. 1986

I'm so sorry you have to carry that pain.

I lost my uncle, too. I've never gotten over how my family reacted when they found out he was positive. He was the world to me.

[H2O Man]

172. Thank you.

I lost a family member, and several friends. And I saw the damage done to other families that I didn't know.

[Enthusiast]

86. Kicked and recommended!

[H2O Man]

173. Thank you.

[Lucretius]

89. She just desicrated my boy's grave

I was there! I lost forty in one year!

[H2O Man]

175. Thank you.

I really appreciate your sharing why this is personal to you.

In the post-Reagan years, I would serve on the board of directs of the largest task force in NYS; it covered thirteen counties. I can say that in my years there, I never heard a single complimentary word on Ron and/or Nancy Reagan. Just the opposite.

[Uncle Joe]

92. I believe Bill encouraged Trump to run in order to weaken Bernie's campaign.

Bill does have a good political sense, he knew the nation was angry and ready for a populist rising against establishment politics and economics.

After Bernie's announcement, Bill saw the writing on the wall, he knew that as awareness of Bernie and his message grew this could pose a threat to Hillary's chances at the nomination.

Having Trump run as a nationalistic pseudo populist could pull votes from Bernie's authentic progressive populism, both were tapping into anger with the status quo.

The primary difference being Bernie was/is actually going after the powers that be which largely supported Hillary and have long diminished the peoples' voice and economic power.

Trump was playing on appealing to the peoples' more base instincts, scapegoating the weak and most vulnerable while giving lip service about going against the establishment; of which Trump has been a long time member of.

Bernie's message is about uniting the people for the betterment of the whole, Trump is all about dividing the people in service to himself.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

[malthaussen]

93. Except that Mr Trump has been making disparaging and threatening noises towards Hillary.

It's not impossible that there is a multi-dimensional chess game going on, but I think that the Clinton camp did not take Mr Sanders seriously until recently, and so urging Mr Trump to run would be more along the lines of hoping to sow disruption in the GOP camp.

-- Mal

[Uncle Joe]

102. Well Trump couldn't very well avoid doing that as he's running in the Republican Primary.

I don't believe Bill thought that Trump actually stood a legitimate chance at winning the Republican nomination until the corporate media kept him front and center in the American Peoples' consciousness 24/7 regardless of his utterances.

I believe that Bill was thinking the Republicans' overwhelming, well financed establishment powers would ultimately insure Jeb Bush as their nominee.

Even if Bill thought that Trump stood a small chance of winning the Republican nomination, he knew, especially after 2008 that the most immediate and critical obstacle was in winning the Democratic Nomination.

However Trump is in fact a corporate media creation, he's their monster, they never called him out about his absurdities or lack of substance, they never held him to account, they glamorized him for far too long.

Bill knew Bernie and his powerful message; that this threatened the DLC/Third Way stranglehold on the party, I have no doubt he saw Sanders as the greater threat even as the corporate media conglomerates ignored Bernie for so long.

[malthaussen]

106. Disparage, yes, in the GE, not the primaries.

See, promising to indict Mrs Clinton if he is elected is not a tactic that I think Mr Clinton would favor. Mr Trump has basically had little to say about any Democrats other than the current administration, but what he has said suggests that he is not following a script produced by the Clinton machine. OTOH, they were (and apparently are) friends, which is somewhat puzzling as well.

But basically, I don't think that the Clintons were so prescient as to see that Mr Sanders was a genuine threat to their hegemony. If they thought the GOP establishment would secure the nomination for Mr Bush, why would they have not been equally sure the Democratic establishment would secure the nomination for Mrs Clinton? Especially as that is still the position of those who support that establishment?

-- Mal

[Uncle Joe]

115. Bill knows Trump well enough to realize his penchant for bluster, and

I never meant to imply that Trump is following a script produced by the Clinton machine at least not entirely. I have no doubt during their telephone conversation just before Trump; announced that he didn't disclose to Bill his desire whether real or not to indict Hillary, as he took encouragement from Bill.

The Republican establishment machine has much more money than the Democratic version, not to mention the corporate media is most certainly in the Republican corner first and foremost, while only relying on the Democratic like as a fall back position, but the corporate media conglomerates were more afraid of Bernie winning than Jeb Bush losing.

Bernie announced up front that he wasn't playing by the standard rules of the game, knowing Bernie's history and consistency, Bill knew this was a threat to Hillary if the message got out to too many people. Especially considering the vast quantities of money the Clintons have made from speaking fees to Wall Street, the primary villains of the Great Recession.

I have no doubt the corporate media conglomerates knew this as well, that's precisely why they blacked out coverage of Bernie so drastically from the day he announced through most all of last year.

This is also why the corporate media conglomerates incessantly promoted Trump whether the coverage was warranted or not, as a means to diminish the quantity and quality coverage of Bernie and his message.

When Bernie talks substantial policy and issues, he still doesn't get near the coverage of Trump just selling steaks, the corporate media conglomerates in their absurdities created Trump, like I said he's their monster.

[questionseverything]

148. i feel like the original plan was for trump to split the repub vote

allowing an hc win

but i don't think anyone factored in trump getting this much support or that trump may actually start believing his own stuff or how much trump would like the attention

[H2O Man]

177. Interesting.

At the time Trump entered, I believed that his mission was to knee-cap Jeb Bush's campaign ....which, of course, he did. I suspect that it was the way in which his campaign caught on that convinced him to really go for the ultimate victory.

[Uncle Joe]

198. I always thought that Hillary matched up well against Jeb, both were establishment

candidates, the Iraq vote would be moot as would Wall Street and super-pacs.

In addition too many people remembered the disastrous tenure of Bush the Least.

The same can't be said for a Bernie/Hillary match up, Bernie's strengths are diametrically opposed to Hillary's weaknesses in regards to the mood of the country.

After the Occupy Movement made its presence known, I believe Bill saw the writing on the political wall in regards to status quo politics and economics, he recognized the potential political threat of Bernie's message should it take hold.

The corporate media conglomerates did as well, I believe they saturated coverage of Trump and blacked out Bernie from the very beginning because they knew "some of" Trump's message also pulled from Bernie in regards to free trade, corruption of government due to mega-bucks and waging war, as I posted above because they feared a Bernie win more than a Jeb loss.

So the corporate media conglomerates were willing to take a gamble that Bernie would would lose and fall out of the race and that Trump would implode on his own, thus paving the way for establishment candidates to win out.

There is also the possibility that at least some of the corporate media conglomerates didn't really believe Trump to be anti-establishment and that his "populism" was just lip service to get elected. Trump has certainly benefited from the status quo.

[Kip Humphrey]

95. The Clintons are past masters at manipulating people and groups.

BUT, it won't matter in this race. Let's just look at what has happened in the last 24 hours:

1. Bernie achieves 5,000,000 individual contributions - a new record
2. Bernie wins an Hispanic debate drawing a standing ovation at his close
3. A group of protesters (many of them Bernie supporters), saying "Enough is Enough!", interrupted a Trump bigot fest in Chicago and shut it down, providing a real-world demonstration of how Bernie's revolution works and how successfully it can get things done (in this case, citizens shutting down unwelcome bigoted speech in their home town)

PLUS,
Bernie beats Trump, Cruz and Rubio decisively in the GE.


WIN! Bernie WIN!

[H2O Man]

178. Right!

Things are changing in the socio-political landscape .....and in general, it's the Washington "insiders" who are the last to recognize it while the shift is under way.

[HereSince1628]

101. My pet CT is that Trump is a stalking horse, that stalked too well.

The effect could be similar.

The RNC is too mainstream to go with a candidate inciting violence. But that doesn't mean Trump can't leave and take his hot teaheads with him.

[H2O Man]

180. I agree.

I think he entered the primary to knee-cap Jeb. But the response he got convinced him to go for the whole ball of wax.

[Major Hogwash]

105. Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain . . .

And all the children are insane . . . all the children are insane

In solidarity, H20 Man.

[H2O Man]

182. The west is the best .....

[bunnies]

108. You are a treasure, Mr. Waterman.

[H2O Man]

183. Thanks, bunnies!

You are very kind.

[closeupready]

109. Oh! I didn't think of that, for one minute, but yes,

I think you nailed it. Thank you. K&R

[H2O Man]

184. Thanks.

When we consider her campaign's tactics -- and utter contempt for the Left -- it is difficult to come to any other conclusion. Her campaign shows far more respect for republicans in general, and rarely insults them in the open manner they show disdain for progressives.

[HassleCat]

110. A poem

Wait, wait. You must wait.
Not yet time to triangulate.
One day after convention night,
Is soon enough
To veer to the right.

[H2O Man]

185. Thanks!

[Beacool]

111. Some of you over think things.

She goofed and apologized. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Not everything is a calculated conspiracy. This place always feels like being in sixth grade, the same level of maturity.

So much drama......

[TeeYiYi]

117. Do you say that to black people?...

re: Some of you overthink things.

Your dismissal of the feelings and experiences of LGBTs who lived through the scourge and decimation of the onslaught of AIDS in the early 80s during the Reagan era is palpable.

TYY

[Bluenorthwest]

141. Team Hillary thinks anti gay bigotry is 'different' and they excuse it constantly.

They are hypocrites of the first and worst sort. They exploit issues that deserve the finest quality advocacy.

[cemaphonic]

131. Agreed

What advantage could possibly come of a glaringly obvious misstatement that you have to immediately retract, and risks alienating a key constituency? It was an embarrassing gaffe that she took back, and apologized for, not some nefarious ploy.

[Major Hogwash]

134. "This place always feels like being in sixth grade . . ."

Don't know why you still come here then, if that's how you truly feel.

[Bluenorthwest]

140. That comment just stinks, it reeks of contempt for LGBT and your own assumed superior status

The fact that Team Hillary has spent months now parsing every word Bernie says to find something at which to take offense does not motivate me to extend even the slightest quarter to your candidate for this horrific statement.

Either she did it on purpose as the OP thinks and that's awful. Or she did it out of ignorance about the single largest public health crisis of her own lifetime, a crisis which took place while she and her husband were holding extremely high offices. Either way what she said was simply not true and her 'I misspoke' tweet insufficient correction and nonexistent apology.

I recommend that your cohort here move carefully and with great respect.

[Puglover]

153. It´s better then the poster

that posted ¨ ¨ repeatedly regarding this whole thing last night. I wonder if Skinner will have a comment about that?

[Beacool]

169. I understand the outrage, I get it.

She goofed royally. I don't know if she forgot about their legacy or confused it with Nancy's advocacy for stem cell research. Either way, this habit on DU of making everything some evil conspiracy is tedious. She screwed up, she apologized. I'm sure that it will be brought up again and she'll apologize again. What else is she supposed to do about it? Goodness knows that we have all said stupid things in our lives.

[noiretextatique]

176. It is par for the course with her

Last edited Sat Mar 12, 2016, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

This is not my first time a the rodeo. I know how the Clintons operate. So do a lot of other people.

[H2O Man]

186. Respectfully disagree.

I do not believe that Hillary says anything publicly, during a primary season, that hasn't been thought out beforehand. Especially so when the remarks are prepared for a high-profile event. I find it curious that anyone -- particularly her supporters -- would claim that she speaks off the cuff, without giving thought to what she is saying, especially at a high profile events.

While you and I may disagree on what candidate we support in the primaries, I hold you in high regard, and definitely respect your opinion. I wish that you would consider engaging in more conversations about "primary issues," including on the OP's I post.

Thanks!

[H2O Man]

187. Thanks!

[mountain grammy]

120. This is my problem.. Hillary could have said so many nice things

and she did. She should have said nothing, NOTHING, about AIDS. She was giving a eulogy and had to say good things, but if you can't say something good, say nothing.. you know, like Nancy and Ronnie did while thousands were dying.

Really, how can this be "misspoke?" How does one who was a living, breathing adult living during that time say what Hillary said? It really is something a Republican would say.

[H2O Man]

188. Right. I agree.

And I understand that funerals are very different settings than any other event. I always make a conscious attempt to set differences aside at funerals. But this crap seemed purposeful to me.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

122. It's insulting to the memory of a lot of DEAD people too.

[Major Hogwash]

123. And their families.

Who have a lot of surviving members still living in New York, Florida, Ohio, Illinois, and California.

As well as in Rhode Island, South Dakota, and Oregon.

And those are states that have yet to vote this primary season.
And just some of the relatives I have spread out clear across this great country of ours.

[H2O Man]

190. Yes, indeed.

[senseandsensibility]

124. Yes, it does.

Very troubling and sad, but hardly the first evidence that "Hill" has written off the progressives. We are "retards" to her and her cohorts.

[H2O Man]

191. Right.

It often feels like her campaign believes we have betrayed her, by acting upon our values.

[Wednesdays]

125. In other words, Hillary becoming the long-lost "GOP Establishment" candidate

despite having a (D) after her name.

[H2O Man]

192. That is an interesting

way of describing the situation. I think that a lot of Democrats believe that to be the case.

[Live and Learn]

130. There is a third possibility, perhaps she actually believed the incident occurred.

It isn't more reassuring but it is possible. I am still bewildered by her sniper fire recall which she would have known there was footage of if she was attempting to lie.

[H2O Man]

193. I guess that it

is possible, in theory, that she was confused, and really believed that Nancy was an advocate for those suffering and dying at the time. Maybe she thinks she remembers Barbara Bush stacking sand bags in New Orleans in 2005, during Katrina, too. But I'd put that way to the bottom of possibilities.

[AlbertCat]

132. significant parts of the Clinton campaign are planning to get votes from conservative republicans,

HA!

I hope that's their strategy!

It's not like conservatives have a pathological hatred of anything Clinton that has been steeping for over a decade now or anything....

[H2O Man]

194. Right.

It's also important to look beneath the surface. The Bush and Clinton families, for example, have a close friendship. The truth is that Hillary is far more comfortable, in private, hanging out with the Bush family, than with any of us on DU. I don't think that Hillary's supporters here like to think about that. But it is definitely true.

[Bernblu]

133. It's' not a lie. It's history evolving!

[H2O Man]

195. Very good!

[Betty Karlson]

135. She may be assured that lost of progressives have written her off after her praise for that

selfish hypocrite Nancy Reagan. May she rot in Hell for all the callous disregard she had for gay people. And may Clinton see the light - this immoral operation has to end. This is just sick and sickening.

[H2O Man]

196. Right.

She continues to make it more difficult for progressives to actually vote for her, should she win the nomination.

[Betty Karlson]

200. She has lost me, I can tell you. I never thought to find myself LEFT of the Democratic party, but

after this campaign, either the party will have left Third Way, or it will have left me. Someone will be parting ways.

[mmonk]

136. Bizarre is what I call it.

At least that was my first impression upon hearing about it. I went through a massive teeth extraction yesterday morning (my dentist said I still had time to get to Bernie's rally downtown) and I actually felt bad (too much trauma for one day). Exhausted, I snoozed and then check out the days event. I thought there has to be some kind of catch. Then I began wondering if she lost her mind. Still very bizarre.

[H2O Man]

197. Bizarre, it is.

Even by abnormal standards, it is bizarre.

[Ford_Prefect]

137. Hillary never speaks off script on something like this. She said what she meant to say.

She has indeed calculated herself into this corner intentionally. Your previous post on her campaign tactics, strategy and proponents was very insightful. I have wondered for some time at the pattern of similar republican sounding commentary on her part and by her shills. Especially since it has repeated so often.

I have said elsewhere that they are using this campaign to denigrate the progressive wing in order to silence it, not only during the primaries but in future. There can be no other explanation for the repeated dirty tricks during caucuses and primary voting. She has built the machine exactly as it is to do exactly what we see them doing. The degree of control exerted on the ground during primary voting and caucuses has made that clear.

I have family members and close friends who are caught up in the cult of personality who really should know better. They do not see the avalanche behind the glowing image of the first woman president nobly striving against the uncivilized foe. Quite how they lost perspective is not for me to say. Some of them are very smart people indeed who really ought to be able to see past the posturing, rhetoric and fear mongering. To hear some of them mouthing all manner of excuses for her double talk turns my stomach. To see the fear in their eyes over the possibility of another Republican president when they are passionately trying to elect one is even more disturbing.

[skepticscott]

147. Absolutely...you can bet her statement had been thoroughly vetted

by her stable of handlers, and that they were and are sure that it would do her more good than harm with potential voters. That is the one and only calculation. Truth is incidental.

[kgnu_fan]

139. As I have said elsewhere a few times, Hillary is a surrogate Republican pretend to be a Democrat.

She was groomed by Kissinger. Beware.

[Zorra]

142. K&R

[lunatica]

144. Yes. Hillary will be far easier to 'work' with than Bernie

for the establishment Republicans. So much easier to work with than Donald Trump that many will vote for her over Trump if it comes to that.

You have amazing insight H2O! I had not thought of that.

[GreatGazoo]

145. the calculation seems to be that all of us to the Left of her will have no choice

so they instead target what they see as winnable conservatives.

It is as if the whole nation is one big swing state and she wants to be conservative enough to get to a safe 60+% right before the GE.

[Babel_17]

146. That seems to be the case, when the AIDS comment is combined with claiming Kissinger as an adviser

People are looking hard at her statements, and seeing a pattern.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/11/hillary_clinton_praises_reagans_for_starting_a_national_conversation_about.html

In a Democratic debate last month, she proudly cited the praise of ghoulish war criminal Henry Kissinger, underlining every doubt that progressives harbor about her foreign policy.

[Auggie]

149. A disturbing history of exaggeration and outright falsehoods ...

breaks my heart to see her and Wasserman-Schultz in control.

Thank goodness for Bernie.

[merrily]

150. Clinton supposedy lost Michigan in part because her peeps crossed over to vote (R).

In every election, it's the party's right, not the party's left, that crosses over to vote for Nixon, or for Bush or whomever and then blames the party's left for losing the election.

That said, if Republicans want to help elect a Democrat, I won't be mad.

BTW, about 25% of Vermont's registered Republicans vote for Sanders for Senator. So, the Democratic Sssssocialissssst is quite capable of attracting Republican voters.

[ladjf]

151. Good post as usual

If clintons strAtigy is alway the result of a calculation, She might consider using some good decision-making software. At least it would be consistent.

[veronique25]

152. i'm beginning to think the clintons have political alzheimers

to say that the reagans began a national dialogue about hiv is the complete opposite of the truth

hillary is now running as a liberal republican (and trump is running as a conservative southern democrat)

because of these two political inversions, there is only one candidate who represents the social, economic, and cultural equality of the american people.

win or lose, bernie's america rules!

hillary voters: come on over!

we welcome you!

the agony of democracy is persuading people to vote for their best interests
-- jefferson

[Overseas]

154. Sad K&R. But your March 1 post makes sense too... I hope Bernie wins a few more primaries and can

change her mind.

We need progressive change for the safety of our planet and to rebuild our long neglected infrastructure and our declining quality of life.

Republicans are beginning to admit that Trickle Down was a sham. All Democrats need to build on that.

Trump's gotten people mad about trade-- I hope she can admit that NAFTA failed to do what it was promoted to do and instead has led to countries being sued for strong environmental laws, with corporations gaining more power than countries. But she promoted the even-worse TPP as Secretary of State. But if she can evolve on other issues, I hope she can evolve on this one too.

I wish she would realize that a majority of us want our tax dollars going to universal health care. That it was instituted in other countries because they knew that industrialization would bring about more health problems and quickly changing economies would create more financial insecurity so at least we could provide some security for our fellow citizens through universal health care.

[stupidicus]

157. I think it would besafe to conclude and argue that the "lie"

at the very least shows the likelihood of her paying more lip service to LGBT issues than anything else because that dark chapter of the Raygun legacy should be news to no one that cares about the issue and lived through it.

I don't think that they've "written off" the progressives of which you speak, I think her conduct and that of every DLC/3rdway leader conforms to their goal of supplanting them with corporate dollars/support implemented long ago, with more conservative voters in tow -- and particularly those that loathe or are in fear of republican excesses these days.

In other words, our disagreement lies largely about when the "writing off" occurred. You seem to think it occurred recently and this example id a manifestation of it. I think it happened a long time ago, and this example is just one of many on a long list that occurred in a closer temporal proximity

[PADemD]

158. The Lie was for Millennials who are too young to remember.

The apology was for those too old to forget.

[stage left]

168. +1 nt

[jack_krass]

203. Nobody plays both sides of an issue better than Hillary

She's almost got it down to an artform.

[jack_krass]

159. Sec. Clinton deserves a break on this one, seriously...

Its not an easy thing, pandering to every interest group, every socioeconomic status, every political psersuasion, every race, every demographic, every industry in existence.

Facts and figures get confused and mixed up, left gets crossed up with right, etc. Seriously, Im amazed at how well how she keeps it all together!

[veronique25]

165. lol! political alzheimers, clinton-style

it's beginning to appear like the only thing 'progressive' about the clintons anymore -- is their 'political alzheimers'

[Geronimoe]

199. No one deserve a break on this

39 million people have died in part because the Government refused to listen to the Academy of Science who said early in Reagan's Presidency that $ 2 billion was needed to address HIV/AIDS. He provided less than $20 million.

[CrispyQ]

161. I don't know if dem leadership has decided they can win without the left or

if they are certain we will fall in line again, like we have so many times before.

Every time she opens her mouth, I wonder if the close pin will hold long enough for me to vote for her, if she gets the nom.

[Nickel79]

162. Hillary lying?

Say it ain't so! After observing her performance in the primaries thus far, it's absolutely astonishing to me that she's even competing with Bernie. There is absolutely nothing "progressive" about Hillary--she's a republican in my book.

[bobthedrummer]

163. There's Something In The Air...K&R

[silvershadow]

164. I believe that has long been the plan. Trump may well be a Clinton invention. nt

[randr]

167. At our county assembly today

I had a conversation with a Hillary supporter. That is exactly what she is hoping for. They think Trump has destroyed the Republican Party and that many centrist conservatives will vote for Hillary.
It is hard for me to wrap my head around the notion that Democratic supporters of Hillary would rely on Republicans to save the day for their choice of candidates.
With history on our side we will prevail outside of what the established political insiders think.

[noiretextatique]

179. Do you think Clinton supporters would be excusing Bernie?

If he made such an egregious "mistake"? We need only look at ghettogate for an answer. He was relaying comments made to him by a BLM activist, and just look at how it got blown out-of-proportion. And by some of same people how are now defending Clinton.

[Docreed2003]

202. Sometimes the veil is pulled back...

I think Sec Clinton said exactly what she meant to say with this comment. It was a prepared remark and it clearly was no misstatement. Sec Clinton contorts and twists to a given scenario, but I think this is one time where the real HRC is shown in full view. There's no other explanation for this. It's a disgusting and insulting statement, one which brought back severe hurt and harm to a huge segment of our community. There's no explanation for this statement other than its how she truly feels. Only with the blowback on this has she backtracked, and the excuses are embarrassing. She's apologized, and that's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that this was a planned comment and, I believe, one that highlights the real HRC

[kgnu_fan]

205. Talked with young people yesterday. They see through this. nt

[kgnu_fan]

207. kick for refreshing memory

[Electric Monk]

208. k&r

[amborin]

209. yes; and there is even an article

suggesting the SCOTUS pick ties in to this strategy