2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSorry, People. Hillary Will Not Be Indicted
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/03/21/law-professor-explains-why-hillary-clinton-wont/209438I see that some people this primary season are banking on a Hillary indictment to stop her from becoming Our Nominee. Such sillyness to think she would even still be running if she were guilty of a crime and ready to be indicted. The right wing always stirs up some DRAMA and makes it out to be a high crime or something sinister. I have been hearing about her forthcoming arrest since I was a kid. Never happened.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)No mention of 18 USC, Section 2071 though. Rather a superficial analysis I must conclude, but of course that was the entire point.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)How about the former Democratic chief counsel to the House Judiciary Committee and staff director of the Government Oversight, Reform Committee:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/08/21/clinton-email-state-server-column/32042775/
or the prosecutor who prosecuted David Petraeus:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/08/30/clinton-controversy-no-comparison-petraeus-column/71421242/
angrychair
(8,699 posts)and the information in them, are 7+ months old from people that have no actual connection to the investigation. Not worth the pixels they are written in.
There's some thick denial flowing today.
So much has happened since those articles.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)As I posted elsewhere, even if things get far enough to potentially implicate her, I think she probably gets off on "plausible deniability." The article linked here almost says as much, in the section where it italicizes "knowingly and willfully" and points out that that's the most important part.
So the content doesn't surprise me... but the placement does.
Imagine if this were posted on Hillary's campaign site, with the headline, "Here's why I will not be indicted." Absurd, right? The mere appearance of such a headline on her site would be a disaster. But here they have put it on David Brock's site, which, considering the relationship between Brock and the campaign, is barely one step removed from being on the campaign's own site.
Honestly, I think if there was no "there" there, the "pushback" wouldn't be so "legitimized" by being publicly put forth by basically a campaign spokesperson. In the last debate, Hillary took the more sensible path against the question of indictment, basically saying she wouldn't even dignify it with an answer. And sure, I wouldn't be surprised if there were "behind the scenes" working of the press to privately put forth the kinds of things mentioned in the article at Brock's site. But for a campaign spokesperson to publicly put this kind of stuff out there makes me think they're more concerned about this than they have let on.
And the article itself isn't so great for Hillary, either. For example:
IOW, even if the SOS does not adequately safeguard sensitive information--even if it causes harm!--that's not necessarily criminal as long as it wasn't marked as such, so someone could essentially get off on that technicality. Even if that's true (which has been debated elsewhere), *that's* the person we want to elect?
Or how about this one:
So it is the responsibility of the individual sending the material, not just to properly classify it, but to confirm they are sending it to an approved, secure address (i.e. not to send it to "an unapproved server" ? Seriously, wouldn't one assume that the one and only address you have for reaching the SOS would be an approved and secure one? If it isn't, whose fault is that?
Really, some of these lines in her "defense" don't really make things sound so good for her, either. Heck, even "plausible deniability," while a perfectly good legal defense, is not exactly "the buck stops here."
ky_dem
(86 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I want people aware.
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)They are truly sick people. I try not to read rightwing nonsense, but I see it being tossed around the web. Best to refute it.
Response to bravenak (Reply #4)
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TexasTowelie
(112,180 posts)When the only hope for your candidate to win is for the opponent to be indicted it makes you wonder about whether those people are Democrats to begin with.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)TexasTowelie
(112,180 posts)I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)I know.
But isn't it strange how obvious it's all been from the beginning - and how certain people just keep looking the other way?
Avalon Sparks
(2,565 posts)Peace
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Seems odd, no?
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)It's the hope that "peace" means that one won't get upset at the continuation of the RWNJ spewing.
Mind you, I've been observing the RW smear machine at work against both Hillary and her husband for years. Of course, they've failed MISERABLY, and will continue to.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)some may have despised both for years as registered Democrats in some sort of dysfunctional masochistic version of "involvement," and been too clueless to leave.
Hopefully this is a long-delayed learning experience and they will go on to find a more sympathetic party to wallow in anti-Democrats, anti- America, anti-liberal, and anti- everything Democrats support negativism.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)He's behind but far from finished!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Of committing a crime? What kind of Democrats would vote for her?
ericson00
(2,707 posts)Any one who peddles the idea that she will be indicted needs to go GOP or play stay the f out of America's body politic.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Order the FBI to investigate Hillary's decision to blatantly ignore the rules and use a private server?
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)when she used a private server. So, no rules were broken.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)There were no written rules against using a private server, simply disregard for security concerns. From the WaPo story:
But she herself ignored the warning and continued using her BlackBerry and the basement server.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)But heads are gonna roll, sooner or later.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)We're not a banana republic. We're not a Latin American despot. We're not a Soviet State. Clinton fucked up. Probably pretty bad. But she didn't do anything illegal. It's possible to fuck up without committing a crime.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Mr. David Brock himself, James O'Keefe's mentor.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)is beyond pathetic. Just shows this man can't win on his own merits.
Thank you for posting this important information, Bravenak
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Vinca
(50,271 posts)She needs to be cleared or charged, ASAP. Democrats running a candidate in the general election with this baggage is the Republican wet dream.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)A whole lot of smoke created by the RW, which they try to lay at the feet of the Clintons. I'd have thought Democrats would have learned to recognize RW feces by now.
I guess unseasoned Clinton hatred, planted by the Arkansas Project & cultivated over 30 yrs, knows no bounds.
Vinca
(50,271 posts)Since you seem to have inside information on the investigation, could you explain why 100+ agents are wasting their time on this? I thought it was BS, too, until the FBI got involved. I always thought the FBI was overworked and understaffed, but maybe they needed a hobby, right?
mcar
(42,331 posts)Sad to see.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Liberals are out of touch, wealthy White elitists.
Liberals don't really care about African-Americans and have never really done anything for them.
People only vote Democratic to get free stuff.
Single-payer healthcare is impossible.
It's become FP with better grammar.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Barack_America
(28,876 posts)In an article released 6 days BEFORE these new FBI leaks...
mmonk
(52,589 posts)the FBI knows or has. There seems to have been an effort to evade scrutiny. There are persons involved who have dual jobs and paymasters. We will have to see.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)...to counter these newest FBI leaks.
Gee, do you think the FBI didn't like being told they weren't going to recommend indictment?
mmonk
(52,589 posts)Vinca
(50,271 posts)Won't you get into trouble for talking about the investigation with such certainty on the Internet?
Jarqui
(10,125 posts)deleted by the dishonest David Brock site.
In short, this exclusive legal premise "whoever knowingly and willfully" is shallow and flawed with respect to the wide number of criminal laws Hillary is exposed to. It overlooks the word "negligence" appearing five times in the executive order she signed off on in her nondisclosure agreements and it ignores that same word coming up in the criminal laws linked in those same nondisclosure agreements.
It also overlooks definitions of intent like in Title 18, sec 1924 "knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location" That's what CIA Director Deutch agreed to plead guilty to for having classified material on his home computers.
When 2,100+ emails are found to have classified info in them and a number of those were NOT classified retroactively (ie with phrases like "Sudan Intel" or "extremely sensitive" , the denial of knowingly becomes a very improbable stretch to accept and the balance of the phrase "intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location" is very difficult to refute.
And it ignores the other federal laws where whether knowing the information is classified or not doesn't enter into it.
If it was so easy to dismiss Hillary, they would not have bothered as many as 150 FBI agents and the two Inspector Generals who called the FBI in to look at this after reviewing it for a couple of months, for a year or more.
Things happen for a reason. You don't get that many law enforcement people gawking at something like this for that long if all of them have figured out as quickly as this law professor (probably working for the Clinton campaign) that there is nothing to see here.
This is just the Clinton campaign working the media to deceive the American people like they always have.
salinsky
(1,065 posts)... it took me a while to come around to the conclusion that she is the most qualified and best choice.
But, when you are reduced to delving into the cesspool of rightwing talking points, your motivations have become more than merely suspect.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)RW talking point?
Setsuna1972
(332 posts)After hoe many investigations and millions spent on trying to find any incriminating evidence, it's time for people to stop placing their hopes on a false story . Nothing's going to happen .
Gothmog
(145,231 posts)There is no evidence of knowledge or gross negligence in this case
LAS14
(13,783 posts)GeorgiaPeanuts
(2,353 posts)They will never get my vote.
floriduck
(2,262 posts)If I read the material from a respected source, I'd at least give it consideration. But Brock made his bed years ago as a Republican operative. And his words and actions since have given me no reason to do anything but completely discount him. In fact, Hillarys decision to utilize his services in her campaign made me even less willing to want to support her.
DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)Thank you! So sick and tired of seeing right wing smears on a DEMOCRATIC board.
mcar
(42,331 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Nor is there any reason for her to be. I'll be soooo glad when the primaries are over. I feel like my sig-line every time I peek in here.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)To this investigation. Brock gets no pass.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Meanwhile, back in the real world...
I've seen this movie before. It was called "All The President's Men".
Only this time, the guilty politician won't get elected to get impeached. She's going down, and Dems with a grain of sense aren't going with her. That would be most of them.
KeepItReal
(7,769 posts)*They* would be in trouble for knowingly transmitting classified info to an unsecured email account belonging to the Secretary of State.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If you happen to know anyone with a clearance, email them something Manning or Snowden leaked. You'll ruin their week.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Try convincing those who feel that the only way for a particular candidate to win is to disqualify the other candidate.
She'll be indicted!
She's cheating!
That is NOT the grown-up way to promote one's candidate.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...it may be more about our two-tiered justice system than about actual culpability.
This report from CBS News is from way back in January:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/state-department-releases-more-clinton-emails-several-marked-classified/
Part of the exchange is redacted, so the context of the emails is unknown, but at one point, Sullivan tells Clinton that aides "say they've had issues sending secure fax. They're working on it."
Clinton responds, "If they can't, turn into nonpaper w no identifying heading and send nonsecure."
It's unclear whether the talking points themselves contained classified information. Typically, talking points are used for unclassified purposes (e.g. speaking with the media). But in some cases, the material contained in such memos may still be sensitive -- especially if the report originates from intelligence agencies.
So: her aide tells her they can't send a document securely, and she responds that he should remove the markings and send it non-securely. Now as the article also points out, the talking points may not have been "really" classified (although they were marked -- makes no sense to me, but whatever). So we don't know if they were "really" classified or not, and neither does Prof. Lempert. The FBI will, though. And if they were, that right there is a big smoking gun: it would be hard to deny that her actions were done "knowingly and willfully" in this exchange.
I will also point out that she insisted on using her Blackberry in spite of several warnings that it is an insecure device. She refused to use a laptop in her office because she wanted everything to go through the Blackberry. Sec. Powell did keep a secure laptop in his office, and used it exclusively for all classified communications. So she can't use the "but all the other SOS's did it too!" defense here.
She's not out of the woods yet, however devoutly you may wish it. Even without an indictment, there may be damage inflicted.
And BTW I am neither hoping that she gets indicted, nor counting on it as a way for Bernie to win. Just pointing out that things are not nearly as rosy as the Professor and you would like us to believe.
Thanks!
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)were being fooled by the right wing. Right wingers have been at this game for decades. It's sad to see democrats get tricked by it though. They should know better, but I guess they don't.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)DebDoo
(319 posts)"I see that some people this primary season are banking on a Hillary indictment to stop her from becoming Our Nominee."
What's next? The royal We?
onehandle
(51,122 posts)The 'debunked common right-wing talking points' are also their talking points.
Funny, that.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Because that is the investigating agency.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
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ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)corbettkroehler
(1,898 posts)Obama won't allow such a blemish on his legacy.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)"Not-Indicted" for president, 2016!!! Yeaargh!
So, so inspiring.
Jennylynn
(696 posts),have the blemish of NOT doing his job? How'd that work out for Ford?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Jennylynn
(696 posts)Did you mean that Obama won't do anything if the FBI recommends an indictment?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Jennylynn
(696 posts)It would be up to Loretta Lynch to indict her if the FBI recommends it. Some think he would try to sway LL in a different direction. It depends on how close he feels to Clinton I guess.
insta8er
(960 posts)You always know with such certainty all of the subjects you posts, that I cannot stop believing that you must be....Miss Cleo!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)If you want to indict a politician you've gotta introduce sexual misbehavior.
That's politics 101.
But who knows the kind of misbehavior that a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST like Sanders might be accused of!
I hear some are writing OPs about how the commie engages in wife abuse, on stage. For all to see. In a video! Saying "discuss!" and getting plenty of hits.
That gets even more hits than the stuff about how the commie jew is ... tone deaf about race ... and how "white progressives" are akin to white supremacists.
That's even more strange.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Did you want her to be indicted?