2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCan Anyone Post A Negative Ad From Bernie That HRC's People Are Saying He Is Running....
I keep hearing that Bernie is negatively attacking Hillary and he is running negative ads. I've never seen a Bernie attack ad. He is taking on Hillary based on the issues and her public record. Hillary is basically running against herself. In case I missed a Bernie attack ad - would someone post it here.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)dchill
(38,474 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)No more liars and their lying for me.
Red Oak
(697 posts)Jitter65
(3,089 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)its all true and literally world changing important, and they have not used it.
I would not be surprised if they have TONS of stuff which would make an endless stream of negative ads and they simply have decided not to use them.
the man is a saint, he's got a level of self-control which we need in a president.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)bad trade policy, bad trade ideology, that nobody would agree with.
hows that one
bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)You can't drop a teaser like that and not make with the goods!
Baobab
(4,667 posts)hows that?
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)But the agenda pushed by Hillary and Obama too unfortunately is bad news for almost all of us. Corporations want it, for example, lower US wages, higher prices on drugs, no or far less available generics, reducing global environmental standards to the lowest common denominator, exporting natural gas even if huge amounts of urban housing is lost because of the half assed excuse that its become too expensive to heat. liberalisation of services so that corporations can move workers around at will, which will result in a lot of jobs lost, trade deals that make New Deal type "local sourcing" FTA-illegal, globalization of government procurement bid tendering.
All of those things.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)There is almost nothing left after all the changes they want to make. Many many people certainly won't be able to continue to live in the US. But there really isnt any other place for all the "losers" of globalization to go, given that most of the people on the planet are the "losers" of their game.
No, a thousand times no to them.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)NT
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)CRICKETS! The cacophonous hum of CRICKETS everywhere.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Exactly opposite.
There is yor negative campaign.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)The Hillary fans won't respond until they get today's memo.
hereforthevoting
(241 posts)Maybe something will come up in the debate in NY.
Lans
(66 posts)[img][/image]
The Problem another ad Hillary probably feels is an attack on her - even though her name is never mentioned.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Too bad in Hillary's case, when you say the truth it naturally reflects poorly on her & feels like an attack to those who cling to the made-for-tv version of Hillary.
Thanks for posting!!
Bernie's "attack ads" are just correcting the record, because Hillary has been running the most negative campaign on the democratic side this election cycle. It is sad, but she can't win if they had to run on their records.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)desmiller
(747 posts)dchill
(38,474 posts)Ouch.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)It's not a wonder why people hate truth so much, cold hard fact does not fit well with others who wish for you to live in their illusions with them.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)about TARP and the auto bailout? In response to untrue statements about Sanders' record?
Really, that's a "hurtful" personal attack?
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)I watched it last night. The Good, sad, bad, ugly and depressing. Do you know what is worse? Being old enough to watch it play out in real life on TV, in the economy, in my community, in the lives of friends and neighbors. Especially living in what was once ranked the nation's #1 fastest growing county, after seeing a solid decade of rapid growth prior to the crash.
So, while politicians dip and repay fovorsnto lobbyists, while Hillary hosts her 33k dinners, and gives 225k speeches that she refuses to release, and Wall Street, pharma, special interests and speculators take us for a free ride - Under bail out and regulation rules that they benefit and we suffer under, I would easily call that a rigged economy. An I hold those that catered to them accountable. Chief among them, Hillary.
The add is truth, but not brutal enough.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Then the problem is you, not the truth.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)fun n serious
(4,451 posts)All innuendo. Do you trust The New York Times?
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?module=BlogMain&action=Click®ion=Header&pgtype=Blogs&version=Blog%20Post&contentCollection=Opinion
You've got to be kidding - get a fucking grip.
intheflow
(28,463 posts)I know it's because there are no ads, but the truth never stopped some of her supporters from posting BS before. I mean, they're not even trying! Where's the clip of Sanders dissing his wife? Where's the clip of Sanders saying he won't be asking advice from Kissinger? These are HRC supporters shining Sanders-shaming moments!
polly7
(20,582 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)"Send to my Thread Trash Can".
When I went to my outside door just now, I heard the distant stamping of feet and repeats of "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". Lotsa earwax on lotsa fingertips at the moment... keeping those Hillary Clinton supporters who haven't already trashed the thread from responding.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Now he doesn't seem to try/care.
He knows what he needs to do to win, and he is doing it.
Now we will see if it works.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Wait, no, such tiny terrible crowds!
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)You must be confusing this outcome with who she represents...
The issues, which she seeks to avoid addressing by refusing to DEBATE the issues, are driving those boos.
You aligned that with her. That's very interesting.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)The one you are using to side step WHY she's being boo'd is, "well, why didn't he do more to stop that?"
Have you ever seen his stump speeches throughout the country? It's the same body language. It hasn't changed, but your desperation to blame what people think as his problem shows how frightened you've become.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Yes I've seen his speeches, yes I voted for him for Senate, yes I helped him win that election against Tarrant.
No I'm not afraid.
Either of our candidates would be MUCH better than Trump.
No matter who the nominee is we need to beat Trump, that's the bottom line. We will all need to work together to do that.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)The fact that Hillary is on the wrong side of these issues is HER fault. Bernie can do nothing about that. It is not his duty to defend her lack of judgement for being on the wrong side of every issue. It is HER responsibility.
quantumjunkie
(244 posts)My guess is no HRC supporter can have a come back to that
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Really.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Bernie corrected the crowd when they booed her name. I agree with that. The later clips show the crowd booing when he mentioned a policy of hers or when she took money from Wall Street.
There is a difference.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)When he mentions a good position they cheer,
when he mentions a bad issue they boo.
If the crowd doesn't like low wages and boo, why is it Bernie's responsibility to stop them from booing low wages? Why should he tell them not to boo low wages? What you are saying makes no sense.
That is ALWAYS the case with audiences.
YOUR PROBLEM is that YOU are associating Hillary with the BAD side of the issue and therefore think they are booing Hillary. They are booing the issue. The fact that YOU MISINTERPRET it is no ones fault but your own.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Kittycat
(10,493 posts)global1
(25,242 posts)Now when he mentions the contrasts on the issues and people boo - they are booing Hillary's positions on the issues. There is a difference.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 2, 2016, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)
Hillary is divisive. She is no friend of the working people of this country, or women, or the poor, she is just taking advantage of many failures of the US corporate media- and the subsequent fact that too many (of both parties) but specifically it seems many of the Democratic Party's good people who are less news aware - she is taking advantage of their ignorance on issues like trade deals (they wont be good for practically any of us, nor will they create jobs) She cultivated an illusiuon of inevitability - and pretended to be things she's not.
if she were to tell Democrats her real agenda, most would not vote for her.
the poorest Americans likely are the ones who will be hurt by her policies the most.
Why is she the way she is? because she wants to prevent the democratic process which is inherently one that adapts and CHANGES.
We should not blindly lock our policy in with trade deals- preserve BAD business models AT ANY COST. For example, preserve the bad health care system, BY THROWING OUT THE DOCTORS AND NURSES who have done their best to keep Americans healthy DESPITE bad policy, and replacing them with the doctors and nurses who are desperately needed in the developing world. And paying them minimum wage .
They have been promising other countries that for 20 years, ever since Bill Clinton was president. That's why our own health care system is still SO screwed up, to provide a fake, avoidable "crisis" to justify this.
The same goes for education.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)Last edited Sat Apr 2, 2016, 02:53 PM - Edit history (2)
provisions in trade in services agreements- This one is about GATS which was signed in 1995.
This would be a disaster for US working people .
The falling wages described would not even go to them.
------
Which Like trade in goods, labor mobility can create losers as
well as winners. In the overall balance, gains usually
exceed losses by a wide margin, but political sensitivities
focus on those who lose. In simple theoretical terms,
migration can be modeled as an increase of supply in the
labor markets of developed countries and a decrease of
supply in developing countries. Here, we use that frame-
work to examine the effects of those supply changes on
the incomes of capitalists and workers, in both the send-
ing and the host countries, and on the incomes of the
migrants themselves.
Effect in developed countries. Given the restrictions on
labor mobility, the equilibrium in the labor market is at
point A in figure 13.2. After liberalization, the equilibrium
moves to point B, reflecting an increase in the number of
hours worked and a decrease in the wage per hour. The loss
for native workers is shown by area ACDE. The gain for
capitalists is shown by area EABD, with most of this gain
coming from the loss for native workers. Since the gain for
capitalists is larger than the loss for native workers, the lib-
eralization of mode 4 leads to an overall gain, shown by
area ABC.
Effect on developing countries. The effect of the liberal-
ization of mode 4 on developing countries is the exact
opposite to that for developed countries. With restrictions
on mode 4, the equilibrium in the labor market is at point
B in figure 13.3. After liberalization, the equilibrium point
moves to point A, reflecting an increase in the wage per
hour and a decrease in the number of hours worked.
As will be apparent later, the gains for migrants in
developed countries are much larger than the loss that
their departure inflicts on developing countries. Nonmi-
grant workers also experience gains, shown by area ACDE
in figure 13.3, since the wage rate has increased in devel-
oping countries. But nonmigrant capitalists experience a
very large loss, shown by area ABDE (most of the loss cor-
responds to the wage gain for nonmigrant workers).
Because the loss for nonmigrant capitalists is larger than
the gain for nonmigrant workers, the group of nonmi-
grants as a whole experiences an overall loss of income,
shown by area ABC. In other words, the effect on total
welfare of liberalizing mode 4 is negative for nonmigrants
in developing countries. Income per capita, however, is
likely (although not guaranteed) to rise as marginal pro-
ductivity increases.
Overall outcome. Migrants lose their erstwhile wages in
developing countries but enjoy larger wages in developed
countries. They therefore experience a gain, measured by
the wage difference between the destination and source
countries.
------
Box 13.2. Quantitative Estimates of Overall Gains from Greater Labor Mobility
Complete liberalization of mode 4 would result in very large gains.
Hamilton and Whalley (1984) use a partial equilibrium (PE) model and 1977 data to estimate the benefits from the complete
elimination of all immigration restrictions, for skilled and unskilled labor alike. The potential gains are enormous, ranging from 60
to almost 205 percent of world gross domestic product (GDP). Millions of workers would move from low-productivity to high-
productivity jobs in countries with high salaries, until wages in labor-sending and labor-receiving countries equalized. Iregui (1999)
revisits the question using a computable general equilibrium (CGE) model and more precise measures of elasticities and population
characteristics. Here again, the gains are large, ranging from 15 to 67 percent of world GDP. Moses and Letnes (2004), using more
precise values for productivities, confirm large gains, ranging from 4.3 to about 112 percent of world GDP in 1977. According to
these authors, the most reasonable gain would be 7.5 percent of world GDP.
The large differences between these estimates, both within and between studies, can be explained by the differences in
modeling frameworks (partial versus general equilibrium) and assumed parameters. Some estimates assume that migrants can
achieve the average productivity of workers in the destination country; others assume that additional education and training will be
needed.
Gains from less than complete liberalization of mode 4 are still large.
Because full liberalization is politically unacceptable, some economists have estimated the potential outcome of more modest
liberalization of mode 4. Moses and Letnes (2004) estimate the gains from eliminating 10 percent of the wage inequality between
countries and find that potential gains would still be large, corresponding to around 2.2 percent of world GDP. Walmsley and
Winters (2002) estimate the potential gain from a 3 percent increase in the workforce in developed countries, a movement of 14.2
million workers, and a 50 percent increase in the current number of immigrants in developed countries at US$156 billion in 2002,
representing 0.6 percent of world GDP. World Bank (2006) reaches a very similar result.
Most of the gains come from the movement of unskilled labor.
According to Iregui (1999), the potential gains from the migration of skilled labor only are much smaller: 3 to 11 percent of world
GDP, in comparison with 13 to 59 percent for all skills. Walmsley and Winters (2002) show that the potential gain from the
movement of unskilled workers would account for US$110 billion, or 70 percent of the total. This reflects the fact that inequality in
wages worldwide is larger for unskilled than for skilled workers.
Source: Annex table 13A.1.
--------------
According to the theoretical model, the liberalization of
mode 4 has the following distributional consequences:
In developed countries, most of the gains for capitalists
are balanced by losses to native workers.
In developing countries, most of the losses to capitalists
are mirrored by gains to nonmigrant workers.
In developed countries, the gains for capitalists are
larger than the losses for native workers. Therefore, total
income in developed countries rises.
In developing countries, the losses for capitalists are
larger than the gains for nonmigrant workers. There-
fore, total income in developing countries falls.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... Sanders can impugn Hillary's integeraty by intimating a quid pro quo between her and Wall Street all day long
and
that's "positive" campaigning
global1
(25,242 posts)If she has nothing to hide and she is not telling Goldman and the Wall St bunch something different than she is telling the People - then maybe that's what it will take.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... camp would call her "the castrator"
The Hillary hate is tangible, no one who's been paying half ass'd attention believes releasing transcripts would be anything positive for her
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Like the TPP, fracking and regime change. Frankly, people SHOULD hate those things. Meanwhile, not a bit of "hate" is directed at Sanders It's tough to be both a victim and a hypocrite at the same time, but Clinton leads the way!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... crowd other than just going away.
Sanders can't throw stones no matter what Bridiebro thinks and Sanders hasn't had millions of tax payer dollars spent by an opposition part in government to lower his poll numbers.
whatever, I wouldn't realease em either... fuck the haters
Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)If you have them post them, or they don't exist.
Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)But it would change my mind on what I think you are if you care and I am assuming you care what I think because you asked.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Response to uponit7771 (Reply #46)
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(63,203 posts)Mail Message
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rachacha
(173 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)Of *course* they're getting something for their money. Who do you think you're kidding?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... believe what you want about her.
Not sure facts change minds any longer
bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)but if one of us poor people took it, then it would be a bribe.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)so that means I'm right? Bribes are only for poor people? I guess rich people can just claim the affluenza defense.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)...does that mean she's beholden to all of them or none of them?
What it really comes down to, though, is not, as you said, "a bribe." It's more subtle than that. It means that when the chairman of one of these firms wants to talk to the likely future president, she'll probably take the call. It gives them an opportunity to have her ear, to have influence, at critical times about issues that are important to them. If there is a call that can go either way, this kind of influence can tip the balance. Even without specific conversations, the relationship probably makes her pre-disposed to see things from their point of view.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... there's no reasonable person who's going to believe the homeless person is beholden to anyone.
But again, believe what you'd like... facts no longer are involved any longer with the bird on podiem people
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No one is THAT fucking naive, DUers have been demanding we get money out of politics since this site was created.
But now her supporters are fine with it as long as it's her bank account.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)The Clinton's are a well-honed political machine. This isn't even about needing to toughen up, it's a tactic, because she's running scared. She doesn't want to defend herself, or her false smearing.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)She was threatening to go to a contested convention. So he promised a cabinet position if she would not.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)Maybe in Hillary land, but not in real life.
And if you're talking about SoS, look at all the trouble she was worth for him. What a train wreck.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)just come on here to rant.
All of those points you brought up were very clearly explained by people in this thread earlier.
Man, I gotta ignore you, you don't seem to be here to add anything, just to annoy.
Aloha
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Talk about mindless subservience.
Or maybe they are thinking about those nasty, false lies and smears that appeared all over the place yesterday about Bernie as a Monster, put out by their O'Keefe like minions.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)efforts to run to the left in the primary and then flip right if she gets the nomination.
Hillary thinks it is negative to request her Wall Street transcripts because they show she lied when she told the voters she scolded Wall Street for their fraud.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,681 posts)was to explain why you are a better candidate than the other ones. As far as I know Bernie has never done anything but point out the differences between his policies and Hillary's. He hasn't said anything negative about her personally at all (unless you count her lucrative speeches to Goldman Sachs, but that's sure as hell fair game). When did criticism of another candidate's policies and positions become an "attack ad"? That's politics, and, as the saying goes, it ain't beanbag. Hillary expected the nomination to be handed to her on a golden, jewel-encrusted platter but she's actually having to fight for it. Too bad.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)They lie, distort, smear and swift boat. . . .and then have the gall to accuse BERNIE of a negative campaign.
Isn't that the way it always is with Republicans. . . they blame others for what they themselves are doing?
Chezboo
(230 posts)of stealing voter information?
Vinca
(50,269 posts)Jennylynn
(696 posts)That last 'event' that she had in Wisconsin, someone posted the main talking points of it on the Hillary board, of which I didn't notice it was the Hillary board, so I mentioned that fact and they banned me! Lol
And they wonder why people don't trust her. She's stealing Bernie's ideas. One of the Hillary posters pointed out why we can't go to $15 from $12 an hour because it would throw some people off of Medicaid, etc. And I thought, well why doesn't Hillary explain it that way? People would listen to that! Instead she chooses to campaign, once again, using Bernie's platform.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)why not just drop out and endorse him? I mean if she now agrees with everything Bernie is saying. . . . then he's got it covered. . .
Jennylynn
(696 posts)She's not exactly campaigning on it. She praised CA for going to $15 per hour. Or for trying to go.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)contradicts meatspace
it's the mode of thought that lets them cheerfully predict Sanders would lose VT, or let DWS gibber insanities without being punished: the DNC's plan would retake the Senate, it's just that those durn voters didn't respond!
Jennylynn
(696 posts)Yep. I think my above post is the reason I got kicked out of HCG. Either this one or the one where I called Thelma the 'dumb one' from Thelma and Louise.
Well! She was!
Geena Davis is supporting Hillary and is actually really, really smart.
I don't think I knew there was an exclusive Hillary club at the time that I was banned. I don't look at the tiny heading at the top of the subject matter every single time I click on it for goodness sake.
jillan
(39,451 posts)And if that wasn't bad enough - there is this one!!!1!!1!!
c
He is sooo negative!!
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Mike__M
(1,052 posts)From all advances, rising in every distance.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Geez. For all the whining and gnashing of teeth, you'd think they'd have them at the ready.
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)Thanks for the thread, global.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)dchill
(38,474 posts)Especially that hack Karen Finney.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Lans
(66 posts)I want Sanders to attack Hillary for attacking him - that would be brilliant, running attack ads about attack ads.
pantsonfire
(1,306 posts)NWCorona
(8,541 posts)It's, debates aren't needed.
You can't make this stuff up anymore!
Good post!
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)this gotcha thing won't work
Baobab
(4,667 posts)Shes just trying to get attention.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)especially when it contradicts her platform du jour.
quantass
(5,505 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)I wonder why.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)I anxiously await being told it's not negative at all, because it doesn't say Hillary's name, and truth is not negative and everything Bernie says is true:
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)um ok
Sancho
(9,067 posts)Bernie doesn't matter, so I doubt a lot of resources are aimed at him.
Maybe you have seen something a PAC produced.
You can see Hillary's ads on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLRYsOHrkk5qcIhtq033bLQ
I haven't seen a single Bernie produced ad here in Florida - so he isn't doing much in the sunbelt. I haven't seen any reports of "negative ads".
I think this is a link to Bernie's ads: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH1dpzjCEiGAt8CXkryhkZg
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)global1
(25,242 posts)I think you'll appreciate this.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)still waiting ...
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)global1
(25,242 posts)lack of negative ads by Bernie. They'll make accusations - but they can never back them up.