2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWe Expect Women to Have Impostor Syndrome. That’s Why We Can’t Handle Hillary Clinton.
Since impostor syndrome became the workplace anxiety du jour a few years back, women have tried all manner of tricks to boost feelings of self-worth and convince themselves that they deserve every granule of success they achieve. New York Times editor Jazmine Hughes dressed like Cookie from Empire to help her feel like a boss at her new gig. A Harvard Business School professor prescribed power poses that boost testosterone. Writer Sarah Hagi has beseeched the heavens to grant her the confidence of a mediocre white man.
But wait! Once youve got a healthy self-image and are aware of all the strengths that landed you in a well-deserved job, youre bound to fall into an equally damaging trap at the other end of the confidence spectrum. Women who achieve leadership positions in male-dominated industries are viewed with suspicion, especially when they ask to be compensated in money, power, or autonomy for their accomplishments. In the Huffington Post, Anna Kegler writes that Hillary Clinton and Melissa Harris-Perry demonstrate the pitfalls of competence bias, which holds women to higher standards than men:
While boys are raised to exaggerate their skills, take risks, fall down and pick themselves back up, girls are taught to think things through and second-guess, avoid risk and failure, and not raise their hand unless theyre sure they have the right answer. Lastly, girls absorb from the media that their real value [lies in their appearance], at the same time that boys absorb the message that girls are not to be trusted.
That last bit is particularly relevant in Clintons case. The concept of trust has taken on gendered import in the current presidential campaign. Pegging Clinton as an inauthentic, conniving phony with little concrete evidence to support that characterization is, essentially, calling her an impostor. In a Guardian editorial on Monday, former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson pointed out that Clinton has the best truth-telling record of any candidate in the race, yet even 40 percent of Democrats think she cant be trusted.
Read More.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and then would admit that they knew very little- except second hand trash peddled on FB. None had actually listened or read anything concrete. I suggested they did, instead of thinking they "can't".
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it is a double standard when you drill down and examine it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Yet he is every bit the politician as Clinton. They both prevaricate.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)One can view one's chosen candidate and opponent through one's own bias filter....but I don't think sexism is a factor in this instance
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Reminds me of thirty years ago, when symphonic musicians just believed women were never skilled enough. It was widely accepted, until they played behind a curtain. Then they realized they had been prejudiced all along.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)And it MAY color some of the views of some people towards Clinton.
But to dismiss it all as that is dismissing legitimate concerns and objections by people who do not like her policies, her affiliations, her history, her statements...or, quite frankly her personality apart from her gender.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)just like a lot of low info voters, you're voting (in part) for who you want to have a beer with. think about it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)She's a type I have always found annoying, whatever gender they might happen to be.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and see that she is being held to standard that people never had before. new standards have magically appeared, and they are used to justify hatred. it has been interesting to watch.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Many politicians engender strong reactions for being personally annoying in one way or another.
Start with Ted Cruz in the current race. Even people who agree with him find him very annoying.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)no one had as little as four years ago. What I have noticed is that very few people (in real life) who have told me they think she is dishonest, actually had any concrete reasons. Or they say "she must be" because "Wall St", and that was enough.
You and Susan had no problems with Edwards, who worked on Wall St and supported war, but Clinton is a pariah. You two can change your values- but Hillary doing better over the years on say, gay marriage- that is an issue. I see double standards all over the place.
For some, it's hard to judge performance if they can't see the performer.
1monster
(11,012 posts)his objectives in four to eight years. Bernie, himself, has stated many times that he cannot make his objectives happen by himself -- WE THE PEOPLE have to demand that Congress passes the necessary laws and that they are enforced. And that it won't be easy or fast.
The fact is, that unless we start (with Bernie) in working for the objectives Bernie stands for, they will never happen. Bernie is a good start, but he is not the end. The struggle will go on and on as long as there are those to fight against the greater good.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)free in a year or so, if he became president. I think a great start would be getting MORE great people in office, one can hardly make a dent.
JudyM
(29,237 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)I would love to see a woman as President...just not this one.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)I could not care less about her gender.
JudyM
(29,237 posts)dchill
(38,489 posts)And That's Why We Cant Handle Hillary Clinton!
Just to be clear.
DINJARIE
revbones
(3,660 posts)Try to explain away distrust of Hillary as not valid. As if people can't just see lies and say "She's distrustful" without it having to be because someone is wrong about Hillary.
All the attempts to trivialize both facts (her lies) and the opinions of others as invalid are a bit bizarre.
revbones
(3,660 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)you may want to objectively read the items they used and their qualifying statements on such as to what constitutes true and "mostly-true".
Now, those are also debate statements, etc... They do not include such things as her explicitly telling unions that she would fight the Colombia Free Trade Agreement - which was proved false by the release of her emails showing she lobbied for it secretly.
They also don't include her change in position on the bankruptcy bill and vote for it after she got donations.
It doesn't explain her pay-for-play deals where mid eastern countries suddenly made large donations to the Clinton Foundation just before arms deal negotiations were concluded favorably to them
It doesn't explain her statements about Bernie wanting to get rid of ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc...
Nope, that list goes on for miles...
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)have nothing to do with any of this. It has to do with her war mongering and her bragging of friendship with a war criminal.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,686 posts)my problem with Clinton is not that I don't believe what she says; it's that she says different things at different times so I don't know which of those things to believe. It's her inconsistency. A few years ago she proclaimed that marriage is between a man and a woman; now she's all for same-sex marriage. She was for TPP before she was against it. She was for fracking before she was against it. It's not her gender; it's her track record.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She flip flops on important issues and compromises on others, I just don't trust her.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And to pretend otherwise is just foolish, BMUS is smart they knew exactly what they were saying.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Hillary supporters are getting so desperate I can smell it.
2008 all over again, we hate poor Hillary, stop picking on her because she's a GIRL!!!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Especially after they've listed valid reasons for not doing so.
When you claim there's a hidden meaning behind the use of a common expression it's desperation.
When you double down after being called on your bullshit tactics it's desperation.
You just don't like the responses to your op-ed.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)But if those are the words you want to put in my mouth I can't stop you.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And by implying the cigar expression was about Monica Lewinsky.
Don't be coy, you're not very good at it.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)It's ironic that it's not okay for me to imply what you were thinking but apparently it's fine for you to do it.
BMUS is not sexist, just so everyone is clear. And women who support Bernie are not sexists, I've never said that and I never will.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)There is no TOS/CS violation there, you get to have an opinion and I get to say what I think of it.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)"While boys are raised to exaggerate their skills, take risks, fall down and pick themselves back up, girls are taught to think things through and second-guess, avoid risk and failure, and not raise their hand unless theyre sure they have the right answer." That's me, even though I have a penis.
Amaril
(1,267 posts)When the situation dictates, I am a ponderer / "big picture" thinker, but I'm not afraid to take risks (I packed up and moved -- all by my lonesome -- 300 miles away from family & friends for a job with a start up), and I had a manager tell me during a performance review that she liked that I wasn't afraid to jump in with a suggestion or answer even when I was wrong.
I don't have a penis, but some of my best friends do.
These generalizations are based on a grain of truth, but we shouldn't take them too seriously.
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)take issue with Hillary because of her record and statement and actions.
If I'm so sexist why did I prefer Elizabeth Warren over all the other candidates?
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)BreakfastClub
(765 posts)Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)He just asked a question and never said you where saying he was sexist.
demmiblue
(36,850 posts)Amazing, isn't it?
revbones
(3,660 posts)based on facts or anything. Thanks for explaining it!
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)both male and female, fall victim to it. And it IS something people are victimized by b/c sexism hurts everyone, not just women.
revbones
(3,660 posts)"Our culture is so sexist that even otherwise very progressive people fall victim to it" and not what you just said you did. Oh wait, I went back to the comment and verified it was...
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)BreakfastClub
(765 posts)we debating here? Why does that confuse you?? It's a fact, and I get that it's one you clearly don't like, but a fact nonetheless. I find it fascinating that we are debating sexism at all on a democratic site. I see arguments against sexism even existing all the time on the DU. THAT is how bad the sexism is in our culture. It's dreadful.
revbones
(3,660 posts)It's a little confusing so it's hard to "debate" when one person says they didn't say something they said in the previous post...
The implication of what you actually said (and then denied) is that the anti-Hillary sentiment is trivialized away as just sexism.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Just not Hillary. She has lied too many times and demonstrated consistently bad judgment on important issues.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)We disagree with her on many conservative positions (why is she pro-deathpenalty? disgusting!) and abhor her record of raking in money from Wall St. and her documented lies (this "she's so honest" meme is utter b.s.), and her untrustworthiness and skill at flip-flopping.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Maybe it's a meme in the sense that it's being repeated but thats about it.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Hillary really got fired at at that airstrip, huh?
jillan
(39,451 posts)I want to vote for a candidate because I believe that person is the best to lead the country.
I don't care about the color of their skin, their religion or their genitals!
This kind of crap - this poor woman crap - makes me want to cry.
This is NOT what we fought for. We fought for EQUAL Rights and to stop treating women as delicate flowers.
Jeebus women - grow a spine! Women were beaten and thrown in jail for your right to have one.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)As you should.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Though, in Hillary's case, I don't believe it's just the perception.
B2G
(9,766 posts)we are brainwashed, manipulated and have low self esteem.
Got it.
randome
(34,845 posts)I think there is some truth to this. It doesn't explain away everything but it's a data point to keep in mind, imo. Clinton sometimes comes across as awkward but I think part of this is because we see her through a filter that has only men's behavior to judge by.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
B2G
(9,766 posts)I'll wait right here.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)But whatever helps you sleep at night.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)So...today's meme is "People cant handle a strong woman." (PATRIARCHY!111!!) or at least the bias there of.
Proceed.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)represent at this point.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)...doesn't mean I think she'd make a good president.
She had to think like a predator and lie down with thieves. I don't admire it.
While it is true that girls are taught to be passive and the glass ceiling is absolutely real--to use this as an excuse for why Hillary is so ethically challenged, is really stretching it.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I get why, but wow, is it laughable the number of excuses y'all have been pulling out of your asses - sexism, male chauvinism, magical thinking in pixie dust and sky fairies who'll send money to finance silly stuff like food and health care ... now some goofy "impostor syndrome" - can't wait for tomorrow's excuse.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)so it seems she might not be such a horrible candidate.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Really?
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And right now Hillary is winning.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)for her lack of favorability ... you talk like losers.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)I get the feeling, however, that the DNC would rather lose to the Republicans than see Bernie win.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Depends on your motives, I guess.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)I have seen boards of directors and can see where they are just connected people who barely have a single brain between all of them. Checkout the board of directors and find that the same people are on a lot of boards and that doesn't make them smart,it makes the connected and it makes them rich, unreasonably rich for working 1/2 hour a month rubber stamping the president of the corp.
So when I look at the programs HRC supports, I don't see a woman trying to get the job done pragmatically, I see another person who is now rich and doesn't care if they screw the rest but won't be honest about it and say it outloud - I have mine, screw you. It is not about feminism, it is not about bias, it is about my core values as a human being.
I went to a woman's college, and that is not about protecting princesses, it was about the bigotry built into society where boys and men get more of the teachers attention, in a woman's college the females get all the attention for a change. I don't give children pink and blue clothes but rather green and yellow, even though I don't like those colors, I give little girls trucks and erector sets. there is bigotry around us, but there is also corruption and I can view that outside of sexual assets
zazen
(2,978 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I regard most the women in my life; friends, family, colleagues... to be less "imposter" than the men.
PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)Hillary has been very successful but it has had a cost. This is my own opinion, what I'm about to say and I DON'T think all women who grew up at the same time as Hillary have suffered from this, she has internalized certain male behaviors. I speak specifically of the ERA that she grew up of at the time that cultivated this behavior from some during the push to Women's Rights movement.
Trying to emulate certain male behaviors that are prized in business and other industry is the WORST thing you can do. I'm not saying this to say that a woman shouldn't be ambitious or assertive but in the idea that some male personality traits get dragged along with things are one HUGE thing that shouldn't be missed...focusing on short term gains versus long term gains. If you think MOSTLY women pushed for that stupidity I tell you you're wrong.
MEN are the one's who pushed for short term gains over women I would argue. I think Hillary believes in this and I think she's internalized some of the disgusting war mongering nature that seems more intrinsic to men. I am embarrassed most of my gender behaves this way but I do think it is intrinsic as the same idea of boys rough-housing gets expanded to sports like Football, Basketball, LaCrosse, etc. Men are more prone to war like behavior. This being said, I think it's limited to skirmishes and industrial warfare is more a creation of the government itself or machine if you will.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)And any self-respecting Progressive would easily see and admit the same.
I'm not saying there is nothing to any gender issues ever, but those who support Hillary and love the Democratic Party need to absolutely wake up and smell the coffee that the animosity towards her is towards her political positions and the fact she can't be counted on to work for us in a consistent way. That is it!
Give me Elizabeth Warren, and I'm in in an instant!
longship
(40,416 posts)Imposter syndrome?
Really?
That's a bit of a stretch.
Like many here, I didn't vote for her because:
1. She is ethically challenged.
2. She is beholden to corporations which have caused many of the huge problems in recent years. Esp: big banks, private prisons, etc.
3. She is far too conservative for me.
4. Polling and primary voting says that independent voters will not vote for her.
5. She might lose in November because of that. National polling agrees.
6. There is a perfectly suitable candidate who covers all five of these objections.
Plus, Hillary Clinton is a horrible candidate.
I am done here.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)She can be ahead and still be a horrible candidate. And she IS a horrible candidate. She has no ethics.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)Very trustworthy indeed.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)More "Hillary as a victim" nonsense
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)increased H-1B visas.....just to name a few things.
The assumption that I would be okay with those things if Hillary was a man is, to put it mildly, STUPID.
And the woman-splaining is just insulting. If she is doing that well, why all this bullshit? Very odd.
randome
(34,845 posts)So I'd think some other dynamic was in play.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
SamKnause
(13,102 posts)I don't support Hillary's policies. (nor do I support many of Bill's policies that Hillary
helped to get passed)
I know she has shown poor judgment.
I know she has changed her positions on many issues.
I don't think she is trustworthy.
Her vision of what the U.S. should be and can be does not match my vision
of what I know the U.S. can be.
gordyfl
(598 posts)He held those secret fundraisers. Remember his 47% remark?
Hillary holds secret fundraisers.
Mitt Romney had refused to release his taxes.
Hillary refuses to release her secret Wall Street transcripts.
Mitt Romney was heavily bankrolled by Wall Street.
So has Hillary throughout her political career.
I feel Hillary would be more likely to get us into unnecessary wars.
I didn't vote for Romney. I didn't trust him. I don't trust Hillary Clinton, either.
NOTE: Mitt Romney is a man - a candidate I did not trust.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)And that has squat to do with her gender.