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"Superprepared warrior realist" vs "fantasist who’s at passionate war with reality" (Original Post) DanTex Apr 2016 OP
We've had more than enough "warriors" Fumesucker Apr 2016 #1
We've definitely had more than enough fantasists. DanTex Apr 2016 #2
Yeah, like Dubya who smooth talked Hillary into voting for the biggest mistake evah! Fumesucker Apr 2016 #4
Bernie is definitely not part of the reality based community. As the Daily News found out when DanTex Apr 2016 #5
At least Bernie wasn't fooled by Dubya Fumesucker Apr 2016 #6
At least Bernie didn't fool the Daily News. DanTex Apr 2016 #7
As I recall they were fooled by Dubya too.. Fumesucker Apr 2016 #11
Looks like they learned their mistake, and aren't buying into magic unicorn visions anymore. DanTex Apr 2016 #14
Keep peddlin' that phlegm Android3.14 Apr 2016 #8
Well, that's a kinfd word for it. I was thinking of another orifice. HERVEPA Apr 2016 #53
Bernie is not a fantasist. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #9
Yes he is. He's an ideologue, but he doesn't have much clue about actual policy. DanTex Apr 2016 #10
Can we please never use the word "unicorns" again? Ken Burch Apr 2016 #25
As long as Bernie stops trying to stick them into his policy plans, sure. DanTex Apr 2016 #27
Nothing short of what Bernie is proposing is worth doing, Ken Burch Apr 2016 #34
Of course it is. All good things are worth doing. ACA was worth doing. DanTex Apr 2016 #35
No tiny change ever really matters. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #38
ACA is not a "tiny" change, and it matters to millions of people who now have health coverage. DanTex Apr 2016 #39
I didn't say ACA was tiny. And Bernie's not going to get rid of the ACA Ken Burch Apr 2016 #41
Like Hillary even has policies. Except maintain the Status Quo at all costs. Katashi_itto Apr 2016 #43
Notice how they always use Unicorns somewhere to shore up nonexistent talking points? Katashi_itto Apr 2016 #42
Who's "we"? Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #17
Why don't you ask Fumesucker? DanTex Apr 2016 #20
Nah Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #23
There are an awful lot of experts and American voters that also seem to occupy this "fantasy" realm obamneycare Apr 2016 #46
Crazy hawks endorse crazy hawk jfern Apr 2016 #3
Money grubbing elitist vs "We The People" hobbit709 Apr 2016 #12
I wouldn't go so far as to call Bernie "money grubbing" but it is a little questionable DanTex Apr 2016 #13
I wasn't calling Bernie that. "Flat broke" to $200+ mill is who the money grubber is. hobbit709 Apr 2016 #15
And good for her. She's also the most qualified candidate to be president. DanTex Apr 2016 #18
Wrong on both counts again you are. hobbit709 Apr 2016 #21
"We The People" never benefit form tiny increments. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #26
The people at war with reality are the ones trying to play to a conventional political wisdom that Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #16
How do you explain that Hillary has so many more pledged delegates and votes? DanTex Apr 2016 #19
Cloning? Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #22
... DanTex Apr 2016 #24
Okay Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #47
Rigging the system - see also: DWS. Betty Karlson Apr 2016 #32
A warrior has actually seen and smelled the blood and stink of war. hobbit709 Apr 2016 #28
It's a metaphor, you know. Bernie isn't actually leading an army with tanks and bombers against DanTex Apr 2016 #29
Nice try but Bernie never laughed about people getting killed. hobbit709 Apr 2016 #31
The status quo is untenable. Any candidate running on the s.q. (Clinton) is a fantasist. Betty Karlson Apr 2016 #30
Bernies bros haz a sad. nt LexVegas Apr 2016 #33
Realist like when she was ducking sniper fire over in Bosnia Lone_Wolf Apr 2016 #36
It's the corporate media promotion of the smoke and mirrors of this election cycle. Skwmom Apr 2016 #37
Their respective records notwithstanding Vattel Apr 2016 #40
Fish wrapper says what? whatchamacallit Apr 2016 #44
"Warrior". Very apropos for the hawkish Clinton. marmar Apr 2016 #45
Damn! Nailed it!! NurseJackie Apr 2016 #48
Superprepared warrior realist frylock Apr 2016 #49
"Warrior" doesn't carry the best connotation for folks who don't like dead bodies hellofromreddit Apr 2016 #50
They did indeed mcar Apr 2016 #51
Where were the "real" WMD warrior went to war for? Those of us paying attention knew there were none HERVEPA Apr 2016 #52
Your asking others to believe as you do period, we've heard for far too long "it's just not possible AuntPatsy Apr 2016 #54
There are things I like about both of them, and things I dislike Retrograde Apr 2016 #55

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
1. We've had more than enough "warriors"
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:19 AM
Apr 2016

I'm so old I can remember the "Peace Dividend", I think of it from time to time and shake my head.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. Yeah, like Dubya who smooth talked Hillary into voting for the biggest mistake evah!
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:22 AM
Apr 2016

Some of us are still members of the reality based community.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
5. Bernie is definitely not part of the reality based community. As the Daily News found out when
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:24 AM
Apr 2016

they interviewed him.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
11. As I recall they were fooled by Dubya too..
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:38 AM
Apr 2016

What a surprise...

https://www.thenation.com/article/surprise-ten-years-ago-many-top-newspapers-did-oppose-us-war-against-iraq/

There was always in the run-up a group of roughly a dozen papers that strongly supported regime change as the only acceptable vehicle toward Iraq’s disarmament. They included The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, the New York Daily News, the Chicago Sun-Times and the Boston Herald. They continued their praise of the president this week and celebrated the fact that “the regime of Saddam Hussein is doomed,” as The Kansas City (Missouri) Star put it.
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
9. Bernie is not a fantasist.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:33 AM
Apr 2016

And he's just a strong on social liberalism as HRC. HRC, having taken Wall Street money, can never stand with the people on economic issues.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
10. Yes he is. He's an ideologue, but he doesn't have much clue about actual policy.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:37 AM
Apr 2016

His healthcare proposal has been widely panned by liberal economists and policy analysts for using Paul Ryan style "magic asterisk" accounting. At one point he was even claiming to save more than 100% of prescription drug costs. And his economic projections are just as fantastical, as is the amount he claims he can raise with his Wall Street tax, and so on.

Vermont tried his single payer idea, and they had to drop it because they realized that the magic unicorns were never going to show up.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
25. Can we please never use the word "unicorns" again?
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:51 AM
Apr 2016

Nothing Bernie has proposed has ever been silly, and no one should ever be mocked for fighting for real change.

Tiny, cheap changes never help anyone. There is no such thing as an idea that has progressive results but is fiscally conservative.

You just hate the fact that a candidate who has ideals is doing well.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
27. As long as Bernie stops trying to stick them into his policy plans, sure.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:54 AM
Apr 2016

The fact is, almost nothing that Bernie is proposing is feasible, neither economically nor politically. It's all a mirage.

And it's been gone through in detail. But at a high level: do you ever stop to think how Bernie can afford Scandinavian style government services without Scandinavian level taxes?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
34. Nothing short of what Bernie is proposing is worth doing,
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:01 AM
Apr 2016

No significant number of people can be helped by any of the tiny changes HRC proposes.

And if the Republicans are going to block any progressive changes proposed by HRC, they'll all block all of HRC's micro-changes, too.

Nothing corporate power accepts can ever be worth doing. Corporations just want things to stay like they are now for the rest of eternity.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
35. Of course it is. All good things are worth doing. ACA was worth doing.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:03 AM
Apr 2016

What Bernie is proposing is not worth doing because it won't work.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
38. No tiny change ever really matters.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:09 AM
Apr 2016

And certainly no fiscally conservative proposal.

History proves this.

Why are you fighting so hard to make this party an ideal-free zone?

That's what "pragmatism" means...having no ideals, no principles, no dreams. It means being stuck in the dead zone of the Nineties forever.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
39. ACA is not a "tiny" change, and it matters to millions of people who now have health coverage.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:09 AM
Apr 2016

Let me guess, you're not one of those people so it doesn't matter to you.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
41. I didn't say ACA was tiny. And Bernie's not going to get rid of the ACA
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:23 AM
Apr 2016

As he fights to replace it with something better, the ACA will remain in place. Bernie will veto any efforts to repeal it, as any other Democratic president automatically would.

We don't have to give up on single-payer just to keep the ACA in place. And if Congress dilutes the ACA any further, it can't be worth keeping in place. Nothing short of what's in there now is of any value at all.

Whatever else happens, the ACA will be there until we get single-payer.

And if any legislation remedying the intolerable flaws in the current ACA(such as the lack of a public option)gets through Congress in the meantime, Bernie will obviously sign them.

People would have been in a lot better place about the pathetic remnants of the ACA that did get passed(only the parts that didn't make any real difference to anyone, in the end)if the administration had based the 2010 Democratic midterm campaign on a commitment to try to defeat the legislators who watered the ACA down to nothing and then fight for improvements to it after the election. Instead, the admin. and the DNC and the DCCC and DSCC all told us to just shut up and forever settle for what we were given, while making it clear that they would not defend the ACA on the stump, would not make a major effort to at least try and hold small majorities in either chamber(they all conceded defeat by late August, basically)and would not do anything to encourage the Obama movement to stay active mobilizing the grassroots for change.

 

obamneycare

(40 posts)
46. There are an awful lot of experts and American voters that also seem to occupy this "fantasy" realm
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:49 AM
Apr 2016
Plans to regulate Wall Street:
- Endorsed by 170 top American economists


$15/hr National Min Wage:
- Endorsed by over 200 top American economists


Financial Transaction Tax (Robin Hood Tax):
- Endorsed by The Vatican, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Ban Ki-moon, Kofi Anan, ...


Single payer healthcare proposal:
- Endorsed by group of 20,000+ physicians






All of the above:
- Endorsed by majorities of the American electorate

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
13. I wouldn't go so far as to call Bernie "money grubbing" but it is a little questionable
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:40 AM
Apr 2016

that he keeps taking money from people to make Tad Devine rich even now that he has no chance of winning.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
15. I wasn't calling Bernie that. "Flat broke" to $200+ mill is who the money grubber is.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:42 AM
Apr 2016

But you knew that. You just can't stop agitating the metabolic byproducts container.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
26. "We The People" never benefit form tiny increments.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:53 AM
Apr 2016

And no change that is small enough for the rich to approve of can ever be worth doing.

Besides which, there is no one anywhere in the fall that would vote for HRC but not Bernie.

People who want corporations to dominate life don't have any progressive views.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
16. The people at war with reality are the ones trying to play to a conventional political wisdom that
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:43 AM
Apr 2016

Was outdated 10 years ago.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
28. A warrior has actually seen and smelled the blood and stink of war.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:54 AM
Apr 2016

Not one that wants to send others out and stays at home and laughs about someone dying.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
29. It's a metaphor, you know. Bernie isn't actually leading an army with tanks and bombers against
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:56 AM
Apr 2016

reality. It's just that his ideas are so unrealistic, that one imagines him metaphorically being "at war" with it.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
31. Nice try but Bernie never laughed about people getting killed.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:58 AM
Apr 2016

Must be nice in you little cubbyhole.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
30. The status quo is untenable. Any candidate running on the s.q. (Clinton) is a fantasist.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 07:57 AM
Apr 2016

And no amount of Debbie-ing preparations, WAR, and "reality" perceptions will make the status quo tenable. The 20th century is OVER!

Lone_Wolf

(1,603 posts)
36. Realist like when she was ducking sniper fire over in Bosnia
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:04 AM
Apr 2016

Methinks the NY Daily News doesn't know what "Realist" means.

Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
37. It's the corporate media promotion of the smoke and mirrors of this election cycle.
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:07 AM
Apr 2016

The only thing Clinton is super prepared to do is to continue the status quo which has gotten us in this mess.

Bernie is at war with the reality they want you to believe is not changeable. If that is the case, welcome to the U.S. Branch of the Corporate World.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
40. Their respective records notwithstanding
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:15 AM
Apr 2016

"Fantasist" Sanders on the floor of the House of Representatives in the Fall of 2002:

Mr. Speaker, in the brief time I have, let me give five reasons why I am opposed to giving the President a blank check to launch a unilateral invasion and occupation of Iraq and why I will vote against this resolution.

One, I have not heard any estimates of how many young American men and women might die in such a war or how many tens of thousands of women and children in Iraq might also be killed. As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first.

Second, I am deeply concerned about the precedent that a unilateral invasion of Iraq could establish in terms of international law and the role of the United Nations. If President Bush believes that the U.S. can go to war at any time against any nation, what moral or legal objection could our government raise if another country chose to do the same thing?

Third, the United States is now involved in a very difficult war against international terrorism as we learned tragically on September 11. We are opposed by Osama bin Laden and religious fanatics who are prepared to engage in a kind of warfare that we have never experienced before. I agree with Brent Scowcroft, Republican former National Security Advisor for President George Bush, Sr., who stated, ``An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken.''

Fourth, at a time when this country has a $6 trillion national debt and a growing deficit, we should be clear that a war and a long-term American occupation of Iraq could be extremely expensive.

Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists? Will the bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Authority be exacerbated? And these are just a few of the questions that remain unanswered.


Meanwhile in the Senate "superprepared warrior realist" Hillary Clinton had this to say:


In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed.
 

hellofromreddit

(1,182 posts)
50. "Warrior" doesn't carry the best connotation for folks who don't like dead bodies
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 05:49 PM
Apr 2016

NY Daily hasn't ever been the best at choosing its words carefully.

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
52. Where were the "real" WMD warrior went to war for? Those of us paying attention knew there were none
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 05:57 PM
Apr 2016

AuntPatsy

(9,904 posts)
54. Your asking others to believe as you do period, we've heard for far too long "it's just not possible
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 06:37 PM
Apr 2016

We would still reside deep inside cave dwellings if we so easily gave up.

I've watched All sides attempt to destroy each other in most cases based on personal beliefs becoming the battle cry, its well known how we as a species can form opinions regardless if those opinions are based on the truth...

A bit more of humility towards each other could aid in moving things towards a satisfying ending for everyone, not any one group on this earth deserves more than the other...

its a small world we thankfully have not fully destroyed yet, we seriously need to work together more often, but to do that one must have respect for our differences, not harshly judge them, class warfare is real and for the most part unworthy of being useful for positive outcomes for everyone,

debating is not only an art but a form of an attempt to differ with reason and empathy not ending up being a seek and destroy outcome.

JMO

Retrograde

(10,137 posts)
55. There are things I like about both of them, and things I dislike
Wed Apr 13, 2016, 08:08 PM
Apr 2016

The quote in the OP sums up my thinking. Sanders has raised a lot of issues that need to be out in the open, and if he could get half of his ideas implemented as president that would be great, but having been voting in presidential races for over 40 years I've seen a lot of enthusiastically received candidates run head-on into the reality of the office. I liked the job Clinton did as senator, and she has the edge on foreign matters, but is not wildly inspiring in large venues, and is dragging a lot of baggage from Bill. I'm leaning slightly towards Clinton as I think she'll handle life in the fishbowl better, but without passion.

There's no way I'll vote for a Republican in November, and unless in a coma or dead fully intend to vote, so I'll go with the Democratic nominee. But I'm very disappointed that the DNC hasn't been cultivating the young party talent over the past four years, taking instead the GOP approach to run Clinton since it's perceived to be her turn.

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