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politicaljunkie41910

(3,335 posts)
Tue May 10, 2016, 08:13 PM May 2016

Why Bernie's plan for Free College and make Wall St. pay won't work.

1. Why Bernie’s plan to make Wall St pay for his Free College would not work. Bernie’s plan includes operating costs but not the costs of construction and building maintenance costs. But Bernie’s estimates are based on the status quo. If college suddenly became free in every state, the number of people who chose to attend would not be limited to just the status quo. You would have in addition to the millennial, those who currently do not choose to go to college because they can’t afford it. You ‘d then have in addition;
(1) millennials;

(2) the men and women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and even their 60s who didn't go to college ever;

(3) those who went to college and have been laid off;

(4) those who may wish or need to retrain for a new career,

(5) the unemployed at any age. Even though the tuition may be free, unemployed people who have exhausted their Unemployment Insurance would still need money to pay for their day to day living expenses like food, shelter,clothing, and car expense so why not go back to school and somehow there would be a program that pays for these expenses etc.,

(6) the girlfriend of the boyfriend who previously had no intentions of going to college when it wasn’t free, or vice versa.

(7) People who are on welfare and may be required to go to school to learn a trade in order to maintain their welfare benefits (and as with the unemployed, they would need money for school expenses like books, fees, etc.

(8) the bored retiree who decides to go to college and take up Art Studies at age 65
My guess is that college became Free tomorrow in all 50 states, the current enrollment would triple at least for the reasons cited above.

Also, whenever anything is Free, the quality is reduced. Look at public education in general in the United States. California always had the very best low cost Community Colleges (two year colleges which offer the lower divisions courses which prepared a student to transfer to a 4 year school for their upper division courses). They also offered trade courses in fields like computer programming, interior design, and plumbing, heating and air conditioning, etc. Anyone who graduated high school could attend.

Over the past 2 decades, our high quality Community College now do two things: 1) all incoming freshmen are tested in Reading, Math, and Writing skills. Half of those tested require remedial Reading, Math, and Writing classes. But instead of sending them back to High School, or Adult night school which is offered at a number of schools in the evening at a much lower cost, they now take up space at the local Community Colleges being taught, the remedial Reading, Math and Writing Skills that they should have learned in High School.

These kids also qualify for Financial Aid even though the cost of fees/tuition at the Community College is really low. However, they still can qualify for Financial Aid for room, board and other expenses, so with this money either generally move out of their parents home and move in with their boyfriend/girlfriend or just their friend. After all the Financial Aid is there for the taking.

Because everyone gets accepted, kids drop out frequently during the semester because they got a part time job at the mall and now don’t want to get up that early, or they stayed up too late partying or whatever and don’t make it to school. The classes by mid semester have half the number of enrollees attending classes midway through the semester than they had at the beginning. They then, should they be that ambitious and really need that class, re-enroll in the same class the next semester. They can usually drop a class up until the end of the semester without it impacting on their GPA, so many of those who skip class often enough choose this route.

So our once great Community Colleges are now glorified high schools. We keep building more and our Property Tax rates are through the roof.


2. My other concern would be, who would decide to get in. On day one of the Free College, my guess would be as I stated above, we would need 3 times as many classroom seats as we currently have. Would there be waiting lists? Would people be accepted based on who had the highest test scores in our 4 year state colleges and universities. What would be the cutoff scores and who decides when there are more applicants than there are slots available.

We still have some of the very Best Public universities (UCLA, UC Berkley, UC San Diego, UC San Francisco, etc) and they used to have an Affirmative Action program which allowed for acceptance consideration on the basis of race in order to allow for diversity of the student population, but they cut that out many years ago. So now our top schools are about 90% white and foreign with the remaining slots usually going to student athletes and minorities if they're lucky.

Mostly white and foreign because the white kids can usually increase their GPAs due to taking Advanced Placement Classes which are offered mostly in the more exclusive communities and school districts which give those kids who chose to take them a leg up. But the truth is that if those schools didn’t limit the number of foreign students accepted, those schools would be entirely foreign students for a couple of reasons. 1) The foreign students score higher on their High School studies and college entrance exams than the white kids do, and 2) they pay out of state tuition rates (even though they are from out of the country) which is much higher than the native born kids and the colleges like getting that money.

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Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
1. You have the composition of the UC system wrong
Tue May 10, 2016, 08:36 PM
May 2016

its only about 30% non-hispanic white
at this point less than 10% are international

politicaljunkie41910

(3,335 posts)
6. His plan was posted (here I believe) because I read it.
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:05 AM
May 2016

Someone either posted it here or a link to it here and I've read it thank you very much. According to what I read, the plan would charge Wall St by a surcharge on trades for the Colleges and Universities' Operations costs, i.e. administration, salaries, etc while the States in which they were located would be responsible for for the physical structures, i.e. construction costs, buildings, maintenance, upkeep, etc. The above is not conjecture.

What I would concede IS conjecture is how much the fact that the facilities that we currently have would not be adequate if all state colleges were suddenly made FREE, there would not be enough space for the demand which would be generated, and based on my conjecture, I stated that we'd need 2-3 times more facilities for the reasons that I stated. If college was suddenly FREE to all, many people besides the 20-somethings who we currently think of a s college students would take advantage of the system and attend college, simply because it was FREE.

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
7. He doesn't even have an administration. There can't be an actual plan. Best they could be are
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:07 AM
May 2016

generalized outlines.

politicaljunkie41910

(3,335 posts)
8. As I stated above, Bernie's Plan for how he would pay for FREE College has been posted on DU before
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:19 AM
May 2016

because I read it. I didn't go searching for it, someone posted a link to his plan. I'm sure I bookmarked it but I'm not about to go looking for it now, because I have other things to do and it doesn't matter that people here think that I'm engaging in conjecture. I've already acknowledging that I am because I'm projecting that the current facilities would not be adequate. If you don't like the fact that I'm not willing to go into greater detail to satisfy you, then so be it. But this is DU, not a term paper that I have to turn in complete with footnotes and cross references.

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
9. Yes, and stating it again doesn't change a thing. Yes, his general plan is online.
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:24 AM
May 2016

No, there is no way possible to say it will get passed, or what changes will be made in order for it to get passed. Acting like gets rubber-stamped and enacted just as he theorized pre-nomination, let alone pre-Presidency is just a ludicrous road to go down, which is why I haven't.

thesquanderer

(11,993 posts)
4. Answers to your questions
Tue May 10, 2016, 09:52 PM
May 2016

1. Yes, demand would increase. But your listed consequences do not necessarily follow. "Whenever anything is Free, the quality is reduced" is not automatically true. Which brings me to...

2. Who would decide {who gets} in? Same as now. Sanders' proposal does not eliminate admission standards. Just like now, you'll have to meet certain academic criteria to get into a particular school. And that is the rest of your answer to #1, i.e. why there's no reason to assume quality will go down. Your example of lowered CC quality was not a result of lowering cost, but rather of lowering standards. You talked about what happens "because everyone gets accepted" but that is not part of Sanders' plan. There is no promise that everyone gets accepted. The guarantee is only that those who meet the standards necessary to go to a public college will not be prevented from doing so by lack of ability to pay tuition.

politicaljunkie41910

(3,335 posts)
11. I'll try this one more time. My point was that the current facilities would not be able to handle
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:38 AM
May 2016

the amount of people who would then want to attend, as opposed to when one had to pay for attendance, and I cited the types of people who would probably not attend but for the prospect that attendance would now be Free. If one concludes as I did, that current facilities would not be adequate to handle the new demand for attendance once attendance was deemed to be Free, new facilities would be added. Those facilities would have to be built by the states, i.e. funds appropriated, land sites located and purchased, building permits obtained, construction began. This would not happen overnight so under my premise with demand exceeding supply, some method of determining who gets admitted now and who gets admitted later when sufficient facilities exist to handle the new demand would have to be determined.

As far as my statements about the quality going down when things become free. This again is my opinion based on my experiences and I cited how our Community Colleges have have turned into glorified high schools because the cost is low and the public schools have done such a poor job of educating our elementary and high school kids that half of them that come to the community colleges cannot pass the entry tests for Reading, Writing skills and Math and need to take remedial classes in order to master the skills necessary to compete in a college setting. This part is not conjecture. My local newspaper reports each year how many of the new students attending do not pass the Reading, Writing skills, and Math entrance tests and have to take remedial classes given by the college before they can advance to the first year college Reading, Writing and Math classes.

thesquanderer

(11,993 posts)
14. More answers
Wed May 11, 2016, 07:49 AM
May 2016

To your point about cost of construction, first, you're assuming you would immediately need new buildings. That's only true if 100% of the current classroom space is being utilized, that the schools are all already filled to maximum capacity, which is an unwarranted assumption. Also, paid tuition does not guarantee you the particular school of your choice. If a school is full to capacity, you'd have to choose some other school that has space available. If there is still no reasonable capacity, there are various ways a plan could be phased in, to ration the free tuition to allow time for the necessary additional infrastructure to be built. For example, you could begin by offering free tuition only to students who graduated high school within the last year and only those who finished in the top x percent in their class, and expand the program beyond that as facilities become available. Really, just because you can envision a problem doesn't mean there are no possible solutions. And the fact that a program cannot function at 100% of what you'd like from day one is no reason not to start, or else almost nothing of significance could ever be implemented.

To your second point, that is a repeat of your earlier point, which I already answered. Your experience about CC quality going down has nothing to do with the fact that CC got cheap or free, it has to do with the fact that they had to admit everyone regardless of academic qualifications. Nobody is suggesting that route for Sanders' plan.

corbettkroehler

(1,898 posts)
5. Tuition Used To Be Free
Tue May 10, 2016, 10:06 PM
May 2016

You're overcomplicating things. Have you not seen Joy Behar state publicly that her public college tuition was under $100 (basically a filing or matriculation fee)?

If American public college and universities used to offer free tuition, there is no valid reason of any kind that they can't do so again. The details will sort themselves.

One other detail: did you miss the formal study at UMass confirming that Sanders' plan would work?

GReedDiamond

(5,316 posts)
10. I noticed earlier today on talk radio that these kind of criticisms...
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:29 AM
May 2016

Last edited Wed May 11, 2016, 01:36 AM - Edit history (1)

...of Bernie's college tuition and healthcare plans were being TRUMPeted by "non-partisan" think tanks as unaffordable, impractical, pie in the sky, impossible socialist dreams, which will create 18+ trillion dollars in additional govt deficit spending over the next decade resulting in a crashed economy.

These talking points must have been re-distributed last night, as I seem to be seeing them here at DU this evening.

Funny how I never hear anything on the radio about the studies which say the opposite about Bernie's policies, such as the UMass study you linked to.

On edit: See this DU post for exactly what I was talkin' about, re: "non-partisan" think tanks.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
12. And only about 1 in 10 Americans went to college back then
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:40 AM
May 2016

Germany has free tuition, and very few Germans go to college compared to Americans. These things are not coincidences.

politicaljunkie41910

(3,335 posts)
13. I'm old enough to remeber when California State Colleges and Universities
Wed May 11, 2016, 12:54 AM
May 2016

charged very low fees and tuition, but they have never been free in my lifetime, and my lifetime runs just about the length of many of their existence. About half of the California State Universities and Colleges are younger than me and I am talking about State owned and operated colleges and universities, not private colleges and university. We used to have the best State schools and they still are very high quality but they still are a bargain compared to private universities in our state. Half of the UC System is younger and half are older than me and they have always charged tuition, although that tuition was always considered a bargain for the high quality of education provided. And FTR, as a person of color, born into a poor family, money was very tight when I was growing up so even the tuition charged when my siblings and I were growing up, while a bargain, for a family the size of mine, it was still a challenge.

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