Why isnt Hillary Clinton more popular here?

[reddread]

say what you like, but judging by the Likes/Recs
she is at a staggering disadvantage among engaged members of this message board.

Why?

[Fawke Em]

1. Because she's not a progressive.

And, since most of us are political junkies, we actually read past the headlines and know how corrupt and Third Way she is.

[floppyboo]

2. seconded

[SmittynMo]

3. Ding Ding

We have a winner

[k8conant]

20. True.

However much Hillary Rodham Clinton wants to claim she hasn't sold out and kowtowed to the system, she still has.

I am 2 years younger than she and have lived through the same times as she has. I have not lost my goals of social and economic justice. She has.

[BlueStateLib]

46. Hillary is a progressive, she's not a "movement progressive"

[yourout]

64. Is that the new name for RINOs?

[Mr Maru]

123. Being a Progressive actually requires getting some shit done, you know, having actual PROGRESS

to show instead of standing in a corner waving your fingers around , screaming the same whiny campaign speech for 43 years.

Of course, it's hard to expect much from a guy who pretty well avoided work for roughly the first four decades of his life.

[Capt. Obvious]

124. "it's hard to expect much from a guy who pretty well avoided work for roughly the first four decades

That's a new slam. Should we expect this to pop up more?

[Mr Maru]

125. I thought it was common knowledge

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927

[Blanks]

166. Thanks for sharing...

I hadn't read that.

[GRhodes]

129. Great, does that progress and success require evidence?

Everyone talks about "getting things done". Okay, such as...? What has she gotten done in her time in office and at the State Department that you can point to that is glowing and exemplary?

Is there evidence of economic progress for most people? Cause I know the data, and I see decades of stagnating wages, deindustrialization, a steady rise in private debt, crumbling infrastructure, exploding inequality, abandoned poor communities and the financial takeover of the economy.

There has been some progress on non-economic issues, can you prove Clinton had anything to do with it at all? She's come around on some issues, fine. But she came around to things like marriage equality when it was safe, thanks to the activism and work of others. Is the environment in better shape?

Please, list her accomplishments in office, at the State Department and the evidence of economic and environmental progress in the last 30 or so years.

I expect crickets. It's a nice bumper sticker though.

[DesertRat]

144. "Please, list her accomplishments in office, at the State Department.."

Here's just a snippet. Read much more at the link.

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Sen. Clinton pushed the Bush administration to secure $20 billion to rebuild New York and fought to provide health care for responders who were at Ground Zero. Hillary worked across the aisle to expand TRICARE, giving members of the Reserves and National Guard and their families better access to health care.

When Congress wouldn't do enough for rural areas and small towns, Hillary didn’t back down. She launched an innovative partnership in New York with eBay and local colleges to provide small businesses with tech support, microloans, and training programs to sell their goods online. She helped expand broadband to remote areas of the state, and she launched Farm-to-Fork, an initiative to help New York farmers and producers sell their products to New York’s restaurants, schools, colleges, and universities.

After eight years of Bush foreign policy, Hillary was instrumental in the effort to restore America’s standing in the world. Even former Republican Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said she “ran the State Department in the most effective way that I’ve ever seen.”

She built a coalition for tough new sanctions against Iran that brought them to the negotiating table and she brokered a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that ended a war and protected Israel's security. She was a forceful champion for human rights, internet freedom, and rights and opportunities for women and girls, LGBT people, and young people all around the globe.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/about/bio/

[pangaia]

156. OK. I'll bite.

But just one 'ACCOMPLISHMENT.'

"After eight years of Bush foreign policy, Hillary was instrumental in the effort to restore America’s standing in the world. Even former Republican Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said she “ran the State Department in the most effective way that I’ve ever seen.”

That is so fucking funny, it's not even funny.


God, I just blew snot all over the keyboard.

[Different Drummer]

161. Thanks for sharing...I think.

God, I just blew snot all over the keyboard.

[GRhodes]

171. Holy good god damn

THAT's what you came up with? That's the evidence of her "getting things done?" Big freaking nothing burger, and please stop citing the war criminal Kissinger. Remember that you're likely talking to someone that is left of center, someone that might care about the millions of people whose lives were lost thanks to that immoral monster.

To give her credit for getting money to NY after 9/11 is comical. I'm sorry, are you arguing that the country went, "Gee, we were attacked, 3,000 people died, and I never thought of giving the city money to recover until Clinton mention it." Clearly a case of her running on stage, as she did with the minimum wage in New York, and trying to take credit for something she didn't earn.

[2banon]

214. Spot effin' On! This^^^^ !! Apparently, this needs to be reposted a Million Times

over for far too many in that camp to SINK IN.

[Miles Archer]

186. Memo to DesertRat: So far, Hillary's Kissinger connection hasn't been a big selling point on DU.

Hillary Clinton and Henry Kissinger: It's Personal. Very Personal.
The Clintons and the Kissingers regularly spend holidays together at a beachfront villa.

David Corn Feb. 12, 2016 7:32 PM

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/02/hillary-clinton-kissinger-vacation-dominican-republic-de-la-renta



"I happen to believe that Henry Kissinger was one of the most destructive secretaries of state in the modern history of this country," Sanders huffed, adding, "I will not take advice from Henry Kissinger." He referred to the secret bombing of Cambodia during the Vietnam war as a Kissinger-orchestrated move that eventually led to genocide in that country. "So count me in as somebody who will not be listening to Henry Kissinger," Sanders roared. Clinton defended her association with Kissinger by replying, "I listen to a wide variety of voices that have expertise in various areas." She cast her interactions with Kissinger as motivated by her desire to obtain any information that might be useful to craft policy. "People we may disagree with on a number of things may have some insight, may have some relationships that are important for the president to understand in order to best protect the United States," she said.

What Clinton did not mention was that her bond with Kissinger was personal as well as professional, as she and her husband have for years regularly spent their winter holidays with Kissinger and his wife, Nancy, at the beachfront villa of fashion designer Oscar de la Renta, who died in 2014, and his wife, Annette, in the Dominican Republic.

This campaign tussle over Kissinger began a week earlier, at a previous debate, when Clinton, looking to boost her résumé, said, "I was very flattered when Henry Kissinger said I ran the State Department better than anybody had run it in a long time. So I have an idea about what it's going to take to make our government work more efficiently." A few days later, Bill Clinton, while campaigning for his wife in New Hampshire, told a crowd of her supporters, "Henry Kissinger, of all people, said she ran the State Department better and got more out of the personnel at the State Department than any secretary of state in decades, and it's true." His audience of Democrats clapped loudly in response.

It was odd that the Clintons, locked in a fierce fight to win Democratic votes, would name-check a fellow who for decades has been criticized—and even derided as a war criminal—by liberals. Bill and Hillary Clinton themselves opposed the Vietnam War that Nixon and Kissinger inherited and continued. Hillary Clinton was a staffer on the House Judiciary Committee that voted to impeach Nixon, and one of the articles of impeachment drafted by the staff (but which was not approved) cited Nixon for covering up his secret bombing of Cambodia. In the years since then, information has emerged showing that Kissinger's underhanded and covert diplomacy led to brutal massacres around the globe, including in Chile, Argentina, East Timor, and Bangladesh.

[bjo59]

130. First 4 decades of his life? That lazy bum - not working when he was 10 years old.

A progressive requires getting things done. You mean getting things done like the things she would get done if she were president? Things like ratifying the TPP, TTIP, and TISA? Things like getting rid of Assad and balkanizing Syria? Things like starting a militarized confrontation with Iran and Russia by extension? Or do you mean things like getting the XL pipeline back on track, opening up more public lands to fracking, and further de-regulating the banks? Yep, she'll be one busy lady. And that lazy Bernie Sanders, lounging around at home and waving his arms to and fro. Dear god - what could so many of us be thinking?

[Voice for Peace]

178. what progress has hillary made? she takes us backwards with her dishonesty. she sets a hideous

example for little girls: scheme and deceive, and you'll go far in life

[highprincipleswork]

76. Please clarify in what ways she is a Progressive and what you think a

"Movement Progressive" is. But more important, what in your mind makes Hillary Clinton a Progressive at all?

[ancianita]

116. I really want to know, too, so that I have more solid ground for supporting her.

[corkhead]

101. She's whatever you want her to be.

[tabasco]

112. Yep.

A lot of people have figured that out.

[DookDook]

119. I think of her as the Quantum Candidate.

She is able to exist on both sides of any issue as once, like Schrödinger's cat.

[Lizzie Poppet]

134. True: she's more of a "bowel movement progressive."

[John Poet]

173. Well, she's certainly full of shit.

[smiley]

185. LOL

that was great! You just made my morning.

[mac56]

151. Like being a Republican without the guilt.

[pangaia]

158. WINNER !!!!!!!!!!

[John Poet]

172. She's more like a "moment progressive".

Progressive, but only for a moment.

Then she's back to kissing neoconservative ass with a big right-wingy neoconservative foreign policy speech...

[Armstead]

194. Please explain the difference?

[vintx]

61. THIS

[chknltl]

85. +1 nt

[Ferd Berfel]

139. +1

she's not even liberal unless you're comparing her to republicans.

[basselope]

149. THIS!

[Aerows]

176. Succinct summation. n/t

[Armstead]

193. Ding

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. The entire basis of her campaign is identity politics.

For the most part, engaged members of this message board expect something more.

[BillZBubb]

15. There is a lot of truth to this.

A lot of people support her because she served under Obama. A lot of people support her because "she has the best chance of winning". A lot people support her because she is a woman and they want a woman president. A lot of people support her because the have good memories of the Clinton presidency. A lot of people support her because she's well known.

But, where are the policies and issues where she is a compelling candidate? Since she's been on both sides of virtually every major issue, she cannot be taken seriously on the issues.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Those with a superficial understanding of politics are easily moved by superficial politics. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Yep. Separate by race, gender, religion, and social class then ask where their check mark is.

Because if it's not in the right box, the other identifiers are moot anyway.

In the end it's all about where they want you to put your check mark.

[Ned_Devine]

65. In comparison to music...

...she and her followers remind me of "Today's top hits!" while the rest of us are listening to underground alternative.

[Different Drummer]

155. Good comment! n/t

[pangaia]

159. Or Beethoven

[Ned_Devine]

163. True

I just know that HRC's camp has Demi Lovato and ours has Grimes

[Armstead]

195. I used to know my music, but I have no clue what you're talking about

I still think The Police are hip and cool.....Ohhhhh Gawd

[Ned_Devine]

213. They are!

[1StrongBlackMan]

205. That is actually a accurate analogy ...

and admission.

[Betty Karlson]

5. Because of her record and her "experience" and her friends. eom

[Miles Archer]

187. ...and her friends.

Why Goldman's CEO Will Not Publicly Endorse Hillary Clinton

by Stephen Gandel

February 3, 2016, 2:57 PM EDT

http://fortune.com/2016/02/03/goldman-sachs-hillary-clinton-blankfein/

Goldman Sachs GS -0.43% CEO Lloyd Blankfein won’t say who he is backing for president. The reason: He thinks his support could be toxic.

In a CNBC interview this morning, Blankfein, who has been a Hillary Clinton supporter in the past, was asked if he is again supporting the Democratic frontrunner, who narrowly won Iowa. Blankfein dodged the question.

“I don’t want to help or hurt anybody by giving them my endorsement,” he said.

Blankfein supported Clinton for president in 2008 when she lost the nomination to Barack Obama. And he has widely been reported as helping Clinton raise money for her current campaign. So it seemed odd that he wasn’t willing to publicly say he is backing her.

[Wellstone ruled]

6. Most likely folks figured out the what

and the why of her Hubby's Administration. People want a Democratic Party of FDR and not the Party of Harry Truman.

[Scuba]

7. Because DU members, as a general rule, are better informed than the public at large.

[Sheepshank]

21. Smarter then the public at large? Like the Republican public that chose Drumpf as their nominee?

Yeah...lets go with that

[Scuba]

89. I don't equate "smarter" with "better informed" ...

... but I do perceive DU members as being better informed than both the public at large and the subset that supports Trump.

[Sheepshank]

91. i simply don't go along with your presumption that the you version

Of better informed on DU has lead to anything resembling a better choice in candidate.

[Scuba]

95. That's because the vote isn't limited to DU members.

[Different Drummer]

157. Definitely better informed than

Trump supporters.

[reddread]

94. you just made his argument insurmountable

I fear my worst fears are true

[Agschmid]

190. Lol.

[Armstead]

198. I hate terms like "smarter" and "better informed" but....

I do think some people do not connect the dots in terms of historical context.

One reason I get so angry about the whole "she's the champion of minorities and Sanders only appeals to white people" is because the Clintons were instrumental in the DLC movement of the late 1980's and 90's of moving the Democratic Party AWAY from being the liberal party and towards being a Party of Big Business and Prosperous White People.

They tried to remove it's identification with minorities,"welfare queens," liberals, activists and the other groups she now claims to be the champion of.

[2banon]

215. I think your comment needs a qualifier.. :)

DU Bernie supporters are better informed, but the other camp, um not so much as evidenced in their commentary and Op's here on this site.

[Faux pas]

8. Because

she has done some pretty low things worldwide. And, reality is a bitch.

[cannabis_flower]

26. Just thought you should know you we're alerted on.

I was the Honduras comment:

On Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:46 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Because
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2108194

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

A bitch? Sorry this isn't Free Repulic

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:51 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am an HRC supporter. I see no trouble with the term bitch here. I also have no problem letting the world know that Hillary Clinton will Donald Trump her little bitch one day.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The vague accusations against the likely nominee need to stop. And yes, bitch (even if the person did not call Hillary that) is offensive language.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Reality is indeed a bitch. Don't see the problem here.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: They weren't calling Hillary a bitch. They said reality is a bitch. I'm thinking Honduras in particular.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think the poster is talking about Clinton.

[Faux pas]

45. Thanks

and I'm sorry that REALITY is the B word.

[LanternWaste]

54. Sorrow is often expressed when firmly entrenched in second place.

"and I'm sorry.."

Sorrow is often expressed when firmly entrenched in second place, regardless of whether we're too irrational to avoid sexist language or not.

[SmittynMo]

72. FYI - I was dinged for the

word "wench", months ago. I don't remember the reference.

The standards are not consistent.

[lagomorph777]

9. Because she disqualified herself while SoS

She demonstrated that she can't be trusted with the most basic requirements of federal office (responsibly managing the balance of secrecy and transparency).

[upaloopa]

10. What difference does it make? This is a bubble where people can vote for unicorns that fart glitter

and it is concidered as valid as voting for reality.

[reddread]

13. 9-1

you win?

[libdem4life]

14. Now where have I heard that first phrase...sounds vaguely familiar.???

Speaking of a Bubble.

[libdem4life]

17. I'd rather fart Unicorns than drones and brown folk village's devastation.

[Ned_Devine]

70. I just like the way you spelled considered

[CobaltBlue]

84. upaloopa—It’s comment like yours why I don’t…

suffer fools gladly.

You are out of touch.

[DesertRat]

145. You're rooting for the GOP against our Democratic candidate?

[frylock]

146. Where did I say that?

[DesertRat]

147. "I can't wait till the GOP runs that ad."

Your post that I replied to. Why can't you wait for an anti-Clinton ad run by the GOP?

[frylock]

148. To piss off Hillary Supporter.

Is it working?

[Lizzie Poppet]

135. "what difference does it make?"

Please tell me you did that on purpose...

[libdem4life]

11. She's a Hawk and responsible for many, many many deaths of civilians

and children. And continues to be. So many targets, so much MIC money, so little time.

[jzodda]

43. What Junk!

Last I checked she wasn't in the military.

She's never commanded troops or ordered air strikes....

She advised the President on intervening in Libya to prevent a massacre in Benghazi.

She doesn't spread plague or disease....

So how does she kill children? She has super evil powers?

[libdem4life]

49. No, she commanded where the military went and what they did.

She pushed Obama into Libya...Benghazi was already a mess and letting loose a second wave of ISIS ... say what? ... second only perhaps to Iraq. She's a Hawk and that's what they do.

No one said she was a General in the Field. Get a clue.

[jzodda]

59. She did not

Where did you get the idea that she commanded troops? I mean really? She commanded NOTHING. You need to get a clue.

You have been hypnotized by right wing prop.

[libdem4life]

67. Read my post. I can't help you with comprehension.

I love the talking points..."get a clue" "Hypnotized by the right wing" All so creative and original.

Carry on.

[jzodda]

69. Just blame her for everything

Give her credit for nothing.....

Fair?

"She's a Hawk and responsible for many, many many deaths of civilians

and children. And continues to be"

So that's what you said.....Its wrong and guess what in a few weeks that quote won't be allowed here

[libdem4life]

79. Ok then.

[Maedhros]

126. Hillary can't fail, she can only be failed. [n/t]

[SpareribSP]

73. You are denying reality.

Hillary Clinton used her influence as secretary of state to push for intervention in Libya, something that Obama signed off on and later called one of the biggest mistakes of his presidency. That's widely reported on and Hillary still defends that action.

Argue about it if you want, but just saying it never happened is crazy.

[jzodda]

77. I never said that

But I am NOT always going to Monday morning quarterback.

I fully remember the reasoning.

The regime was at the gates of Benghazi and had threatened to massacre everybody inside..

They acted and in the end screwed it up...

BUT....That doesn't remove the original justification.

[libdem4life]

82. Obama had to be talked into Libya....and we know who did it.

Now we have Two Ises (PL?) Masterful stroke of regime change.

[jzodda]

86. Yeah

I get that. She wasn't the only one pushing to intervene.

Also you can't call it regime change-they were already in a civil war. Regime change is Iraq 2003. Here we provided air cover for rebels but the rebels did the regime change on their own.

Also its what they did with it afterwards thats the issue. They (the admin) neglected the situation and it became another failed state but are you putting that all on her? The administration as a whole has to take that on the chin.

In my view it does not disqualify her from being suited to be President.

[libdem4life]

92. OK, then.

[frylock]

122. She wasn't the only one pushing to intervene.

No, there was Sid Blumenthal as well, who, incidentally, Obama forbade from having any role within the State Dept.

[Lil Missy]

96. yea, she single-handedly started the Iraq war too. Personally murdered thousands.

She can fart bullets. Who wouldn't want a President that is THAT powerful??

[libdem4life]

102. Ok, then.

[BobbyDrake]

142. Oh, nice, a two-fer. Obama Derangement Syndrome and Clinton Derangement Syndrome all in one post!

[arikara]

127. We came!

We saw!
He died!
HAHAHAHAHA

[stillwaiting]

203. That is not regime change according to that poster though. They are added to the list. nt

[baldguy]

12. Because too many "progressives" are enamored of RW propaganda about her.

As displayed in the replies to this very thread.

[BillZBubb]

23. The old "it's all right wing propaganda" canard. She's really got you under her spell.

Did the right wing make her lie for a year about her server and emails? Did the right wing make her push for regime change in Libya or vote for the Iraq war? She does these things and they are ALL bad. Exposing them is not right wing propaganda.

You are in a cult and need to wake up.

[Scuba]

29. +1

[reddread]

41. there is plenty of that out there

that is the media Telecomm deregulation gave us.

[jzodda]

56. You are the one in a cult

She voted for a mistake like many others and has admitted as such.

She pushed for intervention in Libya to prevent a massacre. How the administration and military handled at that point is NOT on her.

The server thing is the biggest red herring in history. Mostly right wing wackos care about it just to take her out.

She has fought for progressive causes for decades. She tried to bring universal health care to us all and was pounded for it with a multi million dollar hit campaign.

I could go on and its a long list of accomplishments. Is she perfect? Nope but thats a hard standard.

[BillZBubb]

141. Your list of rationalizations IS EXACTLY what cultist would say.

And no, she did not try to bring universal healthcare. He plan was based on private insurance, so it wouldn't be universal.

[AntiBank]

175. +1000

[mythology]

16. For the same reason Dennis Kucinich was so popular

In 2004 and 2008. DU is more left than both the overall electorate and the Democratic party as a whole.

[reddread]

19. war vs anti-war?

I'll buy that

[tularetom]

18. She's a corporate authoritarian with all the personality of a paramecium and the political instincts

of Richard Nixon.

[Lizzie Poppet]

136. Ding! Ding! Ding!

[oberliner]

22. She is very popular here

And in a week she is about to get even more popular.

[Arkansas Granny]

24. I think Hillary's popularity on DU is underrated. Many of her supporters tend to not post in GD-P

which gives the impression that she isn't popular. If you look at the number of posting to the individual candidate groups, you find that in the last 30 days, there have been 16,097 posts to the Bernie Sanders group and 29,665 posts to the Hillary Clinton group.

[reddread]

31. true.

that does explain a lot.
they seem to have the huge advantage in group bannings.
that alone should tell the tail.

[Arkansas Granny]

38. DU members do not/cannot ban anyone. That's the job of MIRT and admins.

[reddread]

47. from the Hillary group?

really?

[Arkansas Granny]

58. Sorry, misunderstood. From the group, yes.

The Sanders group can do the same.

[reddread]

68. what are the relative numbers again, granny?

oh gosh, dont bother I will, for once GIY

yeah, yeah it is much worse than I thought-
380 on the Bernie Sanders group MIA list.

and only 810 under the Hillary ban hammer.

Im sure there is some math somewhere than explains this,
if only Bernie supporters had those skills.

.01% is < 99%
is it not?

[Bobbie Jo]

99. Perhaps

Some of us respect boundaries?

I wouldn't go into the Bernie group on a bet. I have no desire to interact there or attempt to disrupt.

None.

[reddread]

113. those boundaries are crucial.

sometimes silence is the sweetest sound.

[LAS14]

51. Yes, indeed. LOTS of Hillary supporters never visit GDP.

[surrealAmerican]

100. Just one detail about that.

It's not the number of posts that would matter, but the number of people who post.

The Hillary Group has 435 subscribers. The Bernie Group has 1053. That may be a better indication of their relative readership than the raw number of posts.

[Arkansas Granny]

105. I think it just indicates that HRC supporters tend to post more

within the group than BS supporters do. Without all of the statistical info, it's just guessing.

It's my opinion, nothing more. YMMV.

[LoverOfLiberty]

25. Because Sanders supporters have found comfort here

where they gang up on Clinton supporters and pretend:

1) Sanders will win the nomination
2) If he doesn't he was cheated out of it

[Blanks]

108. You win. That's what it looks like from here too. eom

[Prism]

27. Because DU has always had more liberals than partisans

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of partisans here (and they always tend to hate liberals for some reason), but for the most part, people are here because of their ideology more than the party label.

It has always been so.

The divide became stark once Bush left office. That's when the site broke into Liberal Ideals vs Party Boosterism. (LGBTers experienced the first lashes of this)

It's how you end up with people thinking Hillary Clinton was the Devil incarnate in 2008 and then shifting to believe she is the Bestest Candidate in all Human History without explaining or exhibiting any core shift in logic or belief. You know, Blue Team stuff.

And also, and this is really the only reason I still lurk around DU, but this board is one of the few liberal bastions on the internet that has so far resisted the social justice warrior toxicity. It's still here, of course, but it's the same core that's been here for years, and people largely don't bow to it. In other quarters of Democratic internet, there's a dynamic of, "Agree with me, or I shall brand you an -ist!"

On DU, most people just don't give a fuck about that (and man does that piss them off).

Clinton just isn't very liberal where it counts (foreign policy, trade, Citizens United, government accountability and transparency). And she depends on identity politics in the same toxic way. Divide, divide, divide. People are growing tired of this shit. The day Bernie Sanders announced, it was "WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIITE PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOPLE!"

Does this sound like an element that is interested in a socially just society where people of all identities get along? Nope. Just tribalism. And Clinton is the shaman.

[Armstead]

199. Interesting post...

I think the underlying tension between tribalism on the "right" and "left" and the Big Tent necessary to advance EVERYONE's real-world needs and shared interests came out in full force in this primary.

That's one reason I support Sanders -- because he "gets it." We have to transcend our disagreements and biases on certain issues and join together to work for the common interests of everyone.

[Broward]

28. She's a dishonest right-winger.

[bigwillq]

30. Because she's awful?

[LiberalFighter]

32. Because people supporting Hillary are not welcomed here.

[beachbum bob]

33. DU has always swung on the left side of center, been that way since I remember

[AntiBank]

182. is not "left of center" wtf the Democratic Party is supposed to be?????

I am left, not center, sure as fuck not right wing in a million years. Is the country that far gone that anything to the left of a moderate Rethug circa 1985 is now "crazy commies"?????

[qdouble]

34. 95% of democrats don't get much love on DU

[Locrian]

35. because internet

She's arguably not much worse than democrats of old (think Bill Clinton). But it's a lot easier to find out the actual truth behind the scenes than it was in the past.

That plus expectations and people generally fed up with lack of progressive change. As a candidate, she is the definition of "status quo" and business as usual.

[morningfog]

36. She isn't liked in most places. Look at her favorability and trustworthiness polls.

[LuvLoogie]

37. Because she laughs.

[AgingAmerican]

39. Because she takes multiple, opposing positions on issues

And she always punts when asked a position on anything. She's always 'waiting for studies to come out', or whatever, on issues of basic right and wrong.

That and her right wing militarism.

[Orsino]

40. DU leans more progressive than rank-and-file Dems...

...and I suspect we have a disproportionate number of wonks who examine records.

There are no doubt a lot of grudges, too.

[gordianot]

42. Could it be the name "Underground"?

How would this work as a motto: "Give us your Democratic members struggling to stay loyal Democrats hidden underground from the sweltering influence of right wing delusion".

I thought so sorry my apologies.

[BootinUp]

44. The Truth has a Left of Center Bias. nt

[leftynyc]

48. Because DU is far left

and Hillary is not. That simple. I remember when the push for Dennis Kucinich to run was all the rage here.

[reddread]

50. as distinguished from socialism and communsism and pastafarianism?

the far left but not that far?
or are we all just dreaming this from the FSM's matrix machinery?


which is weird to think about, because I could swear Im slightly more to the left of
anyone who would support any war any way anytime when people are lying and as a result dying?
how many times have these pro-war conservative voters accused me or others of right wing messaging?
that is a go to.
I dont need a chart to get my bearings.

[grossproffit]

106. They've got their pulse on something and it's not the nation.

[leftynyc]

111. Don't try and tell them that

They're convinced they represent not only the majority of Democrats but the majority of Americans.

[B Calm]

52. Because were sick and tired of defending the Clintons! NAFTA was the

last straw for me. I did come back and defend during the impeachment. NO MORE!

[reddread]

107. you and me both

treachery and disappointment. no more GWHB policies with Henry K's stamp

[pengu]

53. Because she's just awful

She's basically the walking embodiment of everything progressives have been working against in the party.

[winter is coming]

55. Looks like the "lying opportunist" base has been well covered, so I'll just say,

"Because she acts like she's the smartest person in the room, which rarely goes over well. Especially when you aren't."

[hollowdweller]

57. I always liked her.

When she became a senator I really thought she would be what Elizabeth Warren is now. However once in the senate I was sort of ambivalent about some of her votes and she didn't seem to be the outspoken person for progressive ideas that I thought she would for sure be, and esp the Iraq war vote to me showed she wasn't willing to stick up for what was right.

Then when she ran for president in a LOT of her foreign policy stuff against Obama she put forth seemed to show a Cold War mentaility. A way of looking at things as a grand struggle. Obama, being younger did not seem to have this and it was the #1 reason I chose Obama.

Like her senate time, when Obama chose Hillary for SOS I thought she would be great. I mean she's met all the world leaders. Been privy to discussions when Bill was president. I thought we might see some real movement worldwide and maybe even some movement on the Israeli/Palestinian thing since Bill was SO CLOSE to getting a deal. Now maybe it was Obama holding her back, but I saw a lot of traveling and schmoozing and some angry pronouncements every now and then but like her senate career I just didn't see her living up to the image of what she would be. This was only made worse when Kerry became SOS and seemed to be so much more engaged.

Now we can argue that as senator and as SOS she was playing it safe so she could run and run again. However in my mind I would have loved to see her be more activist toward accomplishing stuff as a senator and as SOS. Maybe I had fallen for the GOP's branding of Hillary as a liberal and had too high expectations???

Finally the speech making for big money, Chelsea working at a hedge fund after graduating, seemingly using the Clinton Foundation to give friends jobs, it just turns me off. I live in a rust belt state and I have seen tons of democrats leave the party because while the dems remain the party of minority rights, many seemed to have forgotten about the working class.
It was like low pay and long hours were OK as long as we covered the culture war stuff.

So for me, not liking Clinton a lot has more to do with her with me having great expectations of stuff getting done, personal integrity, and a progressive agenda enacted that (so far) has not happened.

I'm going to vote for her of course. If you look at LBJ for instance once president he pushed a more on progressive issues and civil rights than he did in congress. Reading Hillary's proposals on her website sounds great to me. I think we'd be better off if they were enacted. However I REALLY want her to live up to the expectations I had of her when she first got in the senate.

[AntiBank]

177. "It was like low pay and long hours were OK as long as we covered the culture war stuff."<<< THIS!

Plus empiric wars, free trade shitty agreements and bankster coddling.

[Bjornsdotter]

60. Because many people are just tired

....of being at least 50 years behind the rest of the first world nations on everything from healthcare coverage to the train systems.

[Binkie The Clown]

62. Because people here are paying attention to reality.

At least more so than the general population.

You might also ask why she isn't more popular with the general population either. What attributes does she display that would make her popular? Answer: None.

[sandyshoes17]

66. No Hillary signs

If it weren't for here and the MSM I wouldn't even know she was running. In my town there are either trump or Bernie signs, not one Hillary sign or bumper sticker. No crowds, she gets a lot smaller crowds than Bernie or trump. I don't get it.

[reddread]

71. you know, I remember a similar thing with GW

I didnt really see a lot of bumper stickers and such, until after the election.
isnt that weird?

[GreatGazoo]

88. A big part of that is just the way Team Hillary is running their show

This blog on trying to go to a miniature Hillary rally was very interesting reading:

http://my-day-at-a-hillary-clinton-rally.weebly.com/

It is so Potemkin it makes one wonder how they expect to win.

[Maedhros]

131. Hackable voting machines can be used for either Party. [n/t]

[RufusTFirefly]

74. Because name recognition isn't important. We follow issues.

In addition, many of us have memories.
Some of us remember the despicable dog whistle politics of her 2008 campaign.
Others remember the positions Clinton held before she "evolved."

Still others remember the Democratic and Republican parties of our youth.

At best, Clinton is what we used to call a "California Republican."

[randome]

75. Define 'engaged'.

Why isn't Bernie Sanders more popular among voters?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[BzaDem]

78. You can find literally any viewpoint well represented in the Internet.

Literally any viewpoint.

So it is not that surprising that there are people who dislike Hillary so much that they would be willing to take actions that make it more likely for Trump to win (or outright support Trump), despite otherwise claiming to have views that are left of center.

But it is a mistake to take it too seriously. This board is not a representative sample of the Democratic party. In 2008-2012, there were huge numbers of posts were about how bad Obama was doing. Many who claim they won't support Hillary now said there was no chance they would support Obama's own re-election (despite many of them later doing so anyway).

Of course, while if you read DU during this time, you would think Obama was doing a terrible job, polls consistently indicated that 85% of liberal Democrats approved of his job performance. Again, DU is not a representative sample.

[On the Road]

80. There Has Always Been a Tension Between the D and the U

Most of the time, the U has predominated, but especially this election cycle.

[Octafish]

81. The Money. She sides with the Money.

Take when she worked for Jackson Stephens and Walmart.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511470549#post7

[reddread]

90. its money that matters

one dollar one vote.
I remember when a million bucks was a lot.
it still is for me.

millionaires cant get arrested these days.
just window dressing in campaign offices.
cling ons.

[SheenaR]

83. I was at Kos for a long time

This seems like it was founded by Progressives who support Progressives.

Draw your conclusions for the skewed support from there.

It's not as though Democrats here lost their minds in a short period of time.

[asuhornets]

87. I LOVE HILLARY!!!!!!! nt

[GreatGazoo]

93. My sense is that it is 2 dynamics working together

The first is that Hillary's best support seems to come from older people who watch a lot of MSM cable news. They are bombarded daily with the message that "Hillary is inevitable" and they believe it so there is no reason to engage with facts or process. Just mail in your absentee ballot and wait for November.

The second is that Hillary is also doing well with people who don't follow politics. She has high name recognition, is a known quantity and many remember the 1990s as being just fine. They would do that decade over if they could. Again, these are people who do not hang out with political junkies and debate facts and sources.

[floppyboo]

97. Reddread, maybe the lack of recs has something to do with the alert patrol?

You can't jury something you've Rec'd. And we know they want that sewn up!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

98. Because Sanders, in a word.

If you go back a few years, you'll find that she was quite popular here.

But since she's been running against (& beating) a more populist, further left candidate, an awful lot of DUers have decided that they've been at war with EastAsia all along.

[reddread]

133. If you go back about 8 years she had some vociferous seemingly unforgiving opposition

some of the most rabid seem to have turned around since.
for reasons never too clear.

[Gomez163]

103. We have a lot of gullible Bernie people here.

[AntiBank]

179. I have to say that actually that's another thing the Hillary camp wins in terms of numbers

Bernie people are issues oriented much much more. Clinton people almost never engage on the issues, they default to "we win, we win, we have the math, we have the math so STFU and Obey." meme.

Also "That's a right wing smear" for anything that goes against the coronation script, even supporting actual liberal, progressive issue stances IF those stances vary from Clinton.

There are some Sanders people who cross the line, hell fuck yes, but I think most are just so pissed that the corporatist wing and policies reign supreme in the a supposedly left wing liberal, progressive party.

I mean come on! Wasserman Schultz , the goddamn DNC HEAD, is a complete and utter shill for the rapacious , EVIL (yes I said that) payday loan bloodsucking industry.

It is Alice the the looking glass for many of us progressives.

Hillary, barring some horrid and unlikely event from the FBI, is going to be the nominee, and more than likely the POTUS.

All I say is do not be shocked when TPP is rammed through, when we start up the "humanitarian bombing" wars yet again and Chained CPI rears its ugly head. The systemic controllers damn well know how to use a willing establishment-entrenched pol like Hillary for left cover for right wing shit.

[Miles Archer]

189. We have a lot of gullible Clinton people here too.

We have both. Except the Sanders people don't consider themselves to be "gullible" because they are not willing to sign up for four years of a Clinton administration.

[ucrdem]

109. Depends on your definition of here here.

[Beacool]

110. Because DU is the mirror image of Free Republic.

Both are in the fringes of their respective parties.

[reddread]

117. how many mutual posters?

is that a mirror image?

[bettyellen]

114. Her supporters are less likely to read RW crap, tolerate sexism and roll in the mud for sport

So they stay out of here in purpose and keep quiet.
Shit I was regularly attacked here for a long time just for defending her before I had decided my vote. The ugliness here will be gone, and they'll be back in the GE forum.

[reddread]

118. where will those Honduran orphans be?

any vestiges for them to dwell within?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. Her much touted "foreign policy experience".

[boomer55]

121. just do a quick google search of "hillary clinton lies" and give your self 5 minutes of reading

[Sky Masterson]

128. Her voting record.

.

[LibDemAlways]

132. It's not just here. She's flat out unpopular-- period.

She's untrustworthy and slippery as hell. And she lacks the good judgment gene. See Iraq, Libya, and speeches behind closed doors to crooks. She's a greedy multi millionaire who hoards cash while proclaiming that the US can't do much to help the masses who are struggling.

And this probably is petty, but her schoolmarmish voice sounds like she's perpetually explaining something in a condescending tone to a five year old. Like fingernails on a chalkboard.

All in all, just an off putting individual.

[AntiBank]

183. +1000

[nolabear]

137. Same reason she gets fewer people at rallies. We're going about our lives, not raging in big groups.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with raging in big groups though frankly I hate it and think it's very bad for clear thinking (and if you pick up on only that out of what I'm saying then you will support my statement). But there are a WHOLE lot of us who have been driven off of any attempt at conversation but are watching and commenting now and then and we will vote.

[reddread]

138. silent majority

parallels

[Ferd Berfel]

140. Because she's been bought and paid for by the 1%

most of us here realize that she will never be able to, or even attempt to, get the corporate elite under control.

SHe will be status quo which includes and is not limited to: never ending war, the destruction of US government sovereignty (TPP), and the neocon race to the bottom.

[Peacetrain]

143. Well .. not too worried about her popularity here//

Hand to God.. in 2008, the President had been elected.. before his inaugeration.. and there were ops for him to be impeached before he had even taken the oath of office..

You can's make it up...

[NanceGreggs]

150. It's simple.

When the TOS was changed in late 2008 to allow for "harsh criticism of Obama", DU was flooded with alleged "disappointed Dems" who posted nothing but anti-Obama/anti-Dem tirades.

As a result, many Dems left this site.

Since the start of the primary campaigns last spring, DU has been flooded with alleged Bernie supporters who post nothing but anti-HRC/anti-Dem tirades - often lifted directly from RW sources.

As a result, many HRC supporters left this site.

Skinner acknowledged last fall that DU consisted of 85% BS supporters (real and/or alleged), which meant that the jury system was comprised of 85% BS supporters who voted to "hide" anything remotely negative about Bernie, while "leaving" even the most blatant RW-sourced anti-HRC posts to stand - along with some of the most obnoxious personal attacks on HRC supporters.

As a result, even more HRC supporters left this site - or were put on "time-outs", which amounted to having left the site because they couldn't post, sometimes for months on end.

Think about it. DU = 85% BS supporters. At what point in time was Bernie supported by 85% of Democratic primary voters? The answer is never. DU has been a Bernie Bubble for most of this primary process, totally out of sync with the real world.

As a result, Hillary doesn't get a lot of likes/recs on DU. Instead she gets votes/delegates. Guess which one counts in real life?

[cliffordu]

152. Because she's a neocon

Dusted by a thin, cheap patina of progressive platitudes and liberal sound bites.

Mostly.

[RBInMaine]

153. They're too busy voting for Hillary, THREE MILLION MORE of them than Bernie.

[gollygee]

154. DU is more progressive than the party as a whole

So we by and large tend to favor the more progressive candidate in any situation.

[davidlynch]

160. I think it is the disingenuity...

She doesn't seem to have a strong moral compass. This allows her to say anything she wants if it gives her political advantage.

She is also implicitly disrespectful, because she tries (unsuccessfully) to sell us lies that are so obvious and transparent that you'd have to be an idiot to believe it. Yet, she persists, and I think that secretly has a lot of contempt for most Americans, except the powerful and rich. Because she has little respect for anyone that disagrees with her, she delivers a one-two punch of lies and condescension that drips with insincerity.

Although her handlers have obviously busted their asses, she cannot successfully conceal her contempt because she's not a very good actress. The result is the train wreck that you see daily.

[ucrdem]

162. Number of posts, 30 days -- Sanders Group: 16,412. Clinton Group: 30,211.

You were saying?

[davidlynch]

164. So Hillary has twice as many negative comments as Bernie I take it :) n/t

[reddread]

169. not the MATH!

[tandot]

165. She is more popular with the VOTING public

Looks like Sanders can get his fans to attend rallies but it seems a lot of them can't find the voting booth.

[Miles Archer]

191. She is more popular with the VOTING public...like the super delegates.

Good old salt of the earth mom and pop hard workin' folks like the super delegates just love her to pieces.

[CobaltBlue]

167. reddread—Hillary Clinton is too popular on this site.

[EndElectoral]

168. I imagine she'll be more popular here after June 16th

[Miles Archer]

188. Doubt it...

...unless everything posted in this thread vanishes like a puff of smoke and people who aren't in her corner now spin an abrupt 180 in two weeks.

I don't see her being "more popular here after June 16th."

[EndElectoral]

217. Popular via attrition. I expect quite a few to leave or take a vacation.

[Vote2016]

170. Top Ten Reasons: 1. She is pushing establishment status quo when the people desperately want change

2. Her domestic policy is wishy-washy Third Way compromise when people want a leader to push for more government action on minimum wage, single payer health care, free public education, family leave and child care.
3. Her foreign policy is hawkish neocon when people want a less interventionist foreign policy than Obama's and not more forced regime change followed by nation building where we interfered.
4. Her economic policy favors neoliberal trade agreements when the people think that these agreements have been unfairly detrimental to US labor.
5. Her private email server may not be criminal but it is an unrepentant and deliberate disregard of the FOIA which is a key progressive guarantee of governmental transparency.
6. Her friendly attitude toward drilling, fracking, and pipelines values the fossil fuel industry over the environment when the people's values put the environment over industry.
7. She is mistrusted on Wall Street and banking regulation because of her history, her sponsorship, and her hiding of the speech transcripts where she blamed consumers for the financial collapse caused by financial sector greed.
8. People who love democracy don't like dynasties, regardless of whether they are Bush dynasties or Clinton dynasties.
9. She stands with private prisons and marijuana criminalization when people want reform and decriminalization.
10. Her inability to unite the party, her history of flip flopping and being caught in lies, her FBI investigation and stonewalling, her weak-as-dishwater campaign, the widely held perception that the supposedly neutral DNC bent over backwards to crown her, and her extreme unpopularity with independents and young Democrats make her a historically weak candidate against Trump.

[pokerfan]

216. That pretty much sums it up for me

Thank you.

[TheKentuckian]

174. Because once past people are you know people, consistent agreement with her can be tough to come by.

Even with that I don't feel in truly in sync really either because she is all finger in the wind and opportunistic that nothing is really being advanced.

Of course she comes off as classist to me and I believe she is to some degree tied up with that "Family" prosperity cult as well so however equitable she may be in spirit it doesn't translate since I believe it only actually counts for the select few.

So, it is hard for me to put weight into the "social" factors to blast out of the gravity well of policy and worldview disagreement to even see her as a bridge or even a benign neglect choice.
Maybe in a different time not after decades of neglect and extraction.

Also, way to deep in neocon land to be considered for me.

This is not a good idea, I hope I am crazy wrong but I feel forwarding Clinton is an absurd response to the problems of our time.

[PoliticAverse]

180. Because a neocon foreign policy is a very bad thing. n/t

[Sky Masterson]

181. She is failure waiting to happen

She is Blah.
We see a loss with her as our flagship.

[AntiBank]

184. I worry much more about the right-wing shit that a POTUS Clinton is going to give left cover to.

Trump will not win, the only way is the unlikely FBI route, and if the DOJ doesn't indict and says they will not ever do so before the GE, she will still win I am pretty sure.

[reddread]

208. I almost look forward to the witch hunts

the persecutions.
I remember the 90's and how Pacifica was disrupted and attacked by Clinton associates.

they will shut down any hope for neutrality or free flow of real information.

[merrily]

192. If Brock has anything to say about it, the proportions here will shift.

However, just about a year ago, when asked to choose between Bernie and Hillary, over 90% of DU chose Bernie--and that was without the votes of DUs "Bernie supporters" who later (snort) "switched" to Hillary.

[DrDan]

196. she is challenging (and significantly thrashing) a cult-hero - they hate being reminded of this

hence she is destined for under-the-bus treatment

[reddread]

200. oh my God, who?

[DrDan]

201. Lol - good one

[BlueStater]

197. She and her husband have worn out their welcome and I'm sick of them.

If a political party has to rely on the same tired people they relied on nearly a quarter century ago instead of fresher talent, they have fucking problems.

[B Calm]

202. Because she was crammed down our throats by the DNC. Giving her an unfare advantage from

the get-go to the end in this phony primary.

Examples:

Declaring before the first vote was cast in Iowa that she already has over a 500 super delegate lead.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3295202/No-wonder-Hillary-thinks-inevitable-votes-500-Democratic-establishment-superdelegates-locked-up.html
States that voted for Bernie show their super delegates voting for Hillary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Democratic_Party_superdelegates,_2016

[dchill]

204. Her lips are moving.

[99Forever]

206. Most informed people don't trust her in the Real World.

People here are even more informed.

1+1=2

[JoePhilly]

207. Because the perpetually disgruntled are always disgruntled.

[reddread]

211. and the Billionaires played on

[rock]

209. Misogyny

[reddread]

210. all over this place

once she clears this cesspool of a primary all of that will be behind her.
God I hope Trump doesnt start talking about her behind.

[rock]

212. You'd be surprised

(or maybe not) at the number of naysayers I get. Like ants on a dropped peanut and butter sandwich. Thanks.