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amborin

(16,631 posts)
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:34 PM Jun 2016

In Hillary, "Democrats Are Making Suicidal Mistake"

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/05/the-democrats-are-making-a-suicidal-mistake

As a report undermines her statements about the email server, and polls show Trump drawing even, the Clinton campaign is quickly becoming a disaster.
by NATHAN J. ROBINSON
Somewhat predictably, Hillary Clinton’s campaign has become a sinking ship. All of the lessons that should have been learned after her 2008 run failed so badly (that voters’ trust in her diminishes with each word she speaks, that her campaigns are woefully poorly run, that Bill is a liability) have been ignored, as the Democrats press forward with what looks like a doomed strategy.

Things were already looking bad when new polling showed that Trump had drawn even with Clinton, or was actually beating her (something Democrats have insisted is impossible). Now, the Inspector General for the State Department has released a report that contradicts large parts of Clinton’s story about her email server, which was already a highly troublesome and persistent issue.

The report hands the Trump campaign a powerful issue to deploy against Clinton. As the New York Times reported, it has numerous damning portions:

The inspector general found that Mrs. Clinton “had an obligation to discuss using her personal email account to conduct official business” with department officials but that, contrary to her claims that the department “allowed” the arrangement, there was “no evidence” she had requested or received approval for it… Department officials told the inspector general’s office that “Secretary Clinton never demonstrated to them that her private server or mobile device met minimum information security requirements,” the report said. The report also criticized Mrs. Clinton for not adhering to the department’s rules for handling records under the Federal Records Act once she stepped down in January 2013… The rules governing emails under previous secretaries were, the report said, “very fluid.” By the time Mrs. Clinton came to office, however, they were “considerably more detailed and sophisticated,” spelling out the “obligation to use department systems in most circumstances and identifying the risks of not doing so.”

The Clinton campaign quickly released a statement arguing that the report had in fact exonerated her of wrongdoing. But even the Times, whose Clinton coverage is generally extremely sympathetic (they are the paper, after all, that went back and re-edited a news piece about Bernie Sanders to avoid making it seem too complimentary), seemed unable to stomach this attempt to twist the report’s findings. The Times makes clear that the Clinton campaign’s response to the report ranges from distortion and omission to at least one outright lie. Clinton’s statement insists that “As this report makes clear, Hillary Clinton’s use of personal email was not unique.” But as the Times replies, the report actually indicates that “Mrs. Clinton’s use of a private email and server stored in her home was, in fact, unique.” Thus the Clinton campaign has responded to the report by simply pretending it says something other than what it actually says.

This is a useful exemplification of a disturbing recurrent Clinton trait: responding to criticisms that she has lied by telling… even more lies, thus causing the whole thing to degenerate further down into disaster.
58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In Hillary, "Democrats Are Making Suicidal Mistake" (Original Post) amborin Jun 2016 OP
Kick with love for Bernie 840high Jun 2016 #1
^^^^^^ This times 10 ^^^^^ laserhaas Jun 2016 #41
didn't WIld Bill has the same problem? Ferd Berfel Jun 2016 #2
well they're certainly aware that "voters’ trust in her diminishes with each word she speaks" MisterP Jun 2016 #3
One party has certainly made a suicidal mistake in picking its candidate. Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #4
There's no rule that mistakes be limited to one side. Jim Lane Jun 2016 #15
The one who wins the primary is by definition the strongest candidate Tarc Jun 2016 #16
"Strongest" against Drumpf? mac56 Jun 2016 #19
3,033,824 votes, 270 pledged delegates says otherwise Tarc Jun 2016 #21
That's very clearly not the case Jim Lane Jun 2016 #24
Sanders, the weaker candidate, failed to secure the nomination Tarc Jun 2016 #25
As compared with Trump, the strongest candidate, who did secure his party's nomination? Jim Lane Jun 2016 #31
WP:AGF, JIM! AGF!!! Tarc Jun 2016 #33
Vapid response BlindTiresias Jun 2016 #50
Your opinion matters not Tarc Jun 2016 #54
As a third party chiming in BlindTiresias Jun 2016 #55
You can cheerlead Sanders all you like, son Tarc Jun 2016 #56
Apparently you've never played rock, paper, scissors. You know Huntsman or Paul would MillennialDem Jun 2016 #34
Obviously not, since they didn't beat ROmney Tarc Jun 2016 #35
Hilarious that you think you can extrapolate that view. The general election is not MillennialDem Jun 2016 #36
Sanders lost to Hillary. Sanders is the weaker candidate than Hillary Tarc Jun 2016 #37
Strawman. MillennialDem Jun 2016 #38
3,033,824 votes, 270 pledged delegates Tarc Jun 2016 #39
Again, strawman. What does this have to do with who would do better in a general MillennialDem Jun 2016 #40
There's nothing you're going to do about it Tarc Jun 2016 #42
Can you even stay on topic? Yes I acknowledge it will be Hillary vs Trump in the Fall, barring MillennialDem Jun 2016 #43
So that makes trump the strongest candidate? Doctor_J Jun 2016 #48
Luckily we save America from bernie beachbumbob Jun 2016 #5
another press release from the sanders campaign? nt msongs Jun 2016 #6
Another K&R for Bernie! Duval Jun 2016 #7
She'll beat the fake university founder, but keep praying. brush Jun 2016 #8
Emailgate aside -- the way HRC & her surrogates treating Sanderistas could cost them the election cloudythescribbler Jun 2016 #9
Nah. Shadowflash Jun 2016 #10
Yeah. Us unwashed ruffians mac56 Jun 2016 #20
+1000 Shadowflash Jun 2016 #22
kick floppyboo Jun 2016 #11
Yes, they are. But don't worry RufusTFirefly Jun 2016 #12
They own it lock, stock, and barrel. AtomicKitten Jun 2016 #13
The Clinton is a disaster. And still some here with blinders on just don't get it. imagine2015 Jun 2016 #14
Shes already beaten Bernie puffy socks Jun 2016 #29
No one thinks she can beat Trump. truedelphi Jun 2016 #52
Get 'em in while you still can...nt SidDithers Jun 2016 #17
This place won't matter even the slightest after the censorship hammer comes down. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #26
Don't go away angry...nt SidDithers Jun 2016 #44
This article highlights a lot of my concerns democrattotheend Jun 2016 #18
Explains exactly why people mistrust her and it keeps growing trudyco Jun 2016 #23
I was called a piece of shit... lmbradford Jun 2016 #27
This is the author/creator of "Current Affairs" oberliner Jun 2016 #28
You do, of course, realize, that was HUMOR in the sarcastic vein? Raster Jun 2016 #32
Yes, I do oberliner Jun 2016 #45
On the upside, Republican talking heads, pundits, et al. are rallying around her. merrily Jun 2016 #30
Yep. Fox news, national review, new republic. The rich republicans will vote for her Doctor_J Jun 2016 #49
But unless those rich Republicans have made the switch to Democratic voter registration, truedelphi Jun 2016 #51
Still fairy-clapping this morning Tarc Jun 2016 #46
K & R! Cobalt Violet Jun 2016 #47
Clinton Expands Her Lead Over Trump jamese777 Jun 2016 #53
Better written than I expected, thanks for the link Babel_17 Jun 2016 #57
thus email business won't amount to anything unless yurbud Jun 2016 #58
 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
15. There's no rule that mistakes be limited to one side.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 05:30 PM
Jun 2016

My personal guess is that Sanders would beat Trump but Kasich would beat Clinton.

What can be expected if, instead, the general election matchup pairs the two candidates with the highest unfavorables? The electoral map still favors the Democrats, so I'd predict a Clinton win, but even if that happens it won't prove that she was the strongest candidate.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
16. The one who wins the primary is by definition the strongest candidate
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 05:33 PM
Jun 2016

Sooner or later, you'll really have to get over these sour grapes.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
21. 3,033,824 votes, 270 pledged delegates says otherwise
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:11 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie doesn't get a pass to the finals if he can't even make it out of the first round, if you'd like a sports analogy.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
24. That's very clearly not the case
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:13 PM
Jun 2016

On your view, Trump is "by definition" the strongest candidate the GOP could put up? Oh, I soooo don't think so. Heck, I don't even think Romney was the strongest last time. Huntsman would've had a better chance of beating Obama.

In each major party, the candidate who "wins the primary" is more precisely described as the one who emerged with the most delegates from a combination of primaries, caucuses, appealing to the automatic delegates (superdelegates in the Democratic Party, RNC members and state chairs among the Republicans), and appealing to the delegates of candidates who've since dropped out. Because of closed and semi-closed primaries and caucuses, they don't fully test one important aspect of each contender's November strength, namely the ability to appeal to independents and crossover voters. Even as to party members, there are millions who aren't political junkies and don't turn out to vote until November.

Then there's the effect of the post-convention campaign. We heard plenty of Clinton people saying in plenty of posts that Clinton has already weathered many years' worth of attacks from the VRWC and is still standing, plus she has the money to fend off the Kochs' onslaught; but that, by contrast, Sanders would be massacred over the "socialist" tag and the USSR honeymoon and the CO status and wouldn't have the money to defend himself. If Sanders had done somewhat better, so as to have a majority of the pledged delegates at the convention, that wouldn't disprove the Clinton camp's arguments about what would happen after the convention. None of you would have said that Sanders was "by definition" the strongest candidate for the general election.

Well, what's sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose. Clinton had a huge lead in endorsements from prominent Democrats. Those did her more good in the race for the nomination (which is largely confined to the party faithful) than they will in the general election. The criticisms of her over things like the emails and the Clinton Foundation were largely dismissed by the party faithful as "right-wing attacks" (a thought expressed on DU as well), but will find a more receptive audience among the general-election voters. None of this proves that Trump will beat her. I said that I don't think he will. The lesson from these arguments is the same as the lesson from the Clintonite fear-mongering about Sanders and that dreaded S-word -- namely, that the factors determining success in the nomination contest aren't the same as those determining success in the general election.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
25. Sanders, the weaker candidate, failed to secure the nomination
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:16 PM
Jun 2016

Isn't there a brewing kerfuffle on talk:Jimbo that you need to go attend to, Jim?

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
31. As compared with Trump, the strongest candidate, who did secure his party's nomination?
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:30 PM
Jun 2016

Your argument is circular. You assume that the one who secures the nomination is the strongest candidate, and then "prove" that Clinton is the strongest candidate because she secured the nomination. The Trump supporters could say the same thing. I think most DUers agree with me that the Republicans are not nominating their strongest candidate, even if by your circular logic they are.

Instead of addressing any of my specific points, you merely seize the occasion to vent your spleen about Wikipedia. Go ahead, make another small-minded in-joke. I probably won't bother answering you.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
33. WP:AGF, JIM! AGF!!!
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:33 PM
Jun 2016


I'm the one here supporting the actual Democratic presidential candidate, while you still continue to push the also-ran. You still have precisely 14 days to get this out of your system though, til the admins drop the hammer on the attacking of Democratic candidates.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
54. Your opinion matters not
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 04:09 PM
Jun 2016

The suggestion that the "strongest candidate didn't win" is so blatantly contradictory, I'm not surprised the Sandersfans are unable to grasp it.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
55. As a third party chiming in
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 08:05 PM
Jun 2016

I am part of the population (observers of the argument) that are the most important, and you got rekt son.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
56. You can cheerlead Sanders all you like, son
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 08:09 PM
Jun 2016

Having lost the primary, is is the weaker candidate.

By all means keep trying though, I have plenty of time.


 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
34. Apparently you've never played rock, paper, scissors. You know Huntsman or Paul would
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:59 PM
Jun 2016

have been a better general election candidate than Romney.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
35. Obviously not, since they didn't beat ROmney
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:02 AM
Jun 2016

My goodness, this is like shooting fish in a barrel tonight.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
36. Hilarious that you think you can extrapolate that view. The general election is not
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:05 AM
Jun 2016

primary vs primary.

If it was why even bother having the general? Just count up the primary/caucus votes on both sides... and you have your winner. Of course would it be Hillary (most primary votes for an individual) or the republican front runner (republican party had more primary votes in total)?

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
37. Sanders lost to Hillary. Sanders is the weaker candidate than Hillary
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:10 AM
Jun 2016

You can spin your way out of that however you like, but no one really cares.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
39. 3,033,824 votes, 270 pledged delegates
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:24 AM
Jun 2016

That's all we need, and your candidate have no means of overcoming that.

You can engage in endless pedantry, or you can win. I know which road I took.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
40. Again, strawman. What does this have to do with who would do better in a general
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:26 AM
Jun 2016

election?

You would fail logic 101 if you said because A beat B, A would be more likely to be C than B.

The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
42. There's nothing you're going to do about it
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:30 AM
Jun 2016

It will be Hillary vs. Trump in the fall. You can do Pedant Olympics all you like while I and most others engage in the reality of the election.

Consider this the "last word".

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
43. Can you even stay on topic? Yes I acknowledge it will be Hillary vs Trump in the Fall, barring
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 12:33 AM
Jun 2016

some crazy circumstances.

You trying to "rub dirt" or something (neener neener Hillary won?). I don't get it...

But this has NOTHING to do with whether Bernie or Hillary are better general election candidates. Can't we have a rational discussion on such matters?

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
5. Luckily we save America from bernie
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 03:46 PM
Jun 2016

His past would obliterate him with middle America....the voters who elect the presidents....

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
12. Yes, they are. But don't worry
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:21 PM
Jun 2016

We can always blame Bernie for Hillary's problems.

How convenient.

We've got Trump to convince us to hold our noses and vote for her.
And Bernie to blame if she still loses.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
13. They own it lock, stock, and barrel.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:21 PM
Jun 2016

I will vote down ballot and otherwise will simply be a spectator, tailgating the GE in my lawn chair with popcorn and margaritas.

 

imagine2015

(2,054 posts)
14. The Clinton is a disaster. And still some here with blinders on just don't get it.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 04:35 PM
Jun 2016

If she can't handle Bernie with all of her resources how can she hope to beat Trump.

Most people just don't fricken like her and trust her.

And some think she can beat Trump?

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
52. No one thinks she can beat Trump.
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 04:03 PM
Jun 2016

And she is only barely beating Bernie, and much of that is due to less than honest means.

The fact that she and her team are in California to try and eke out a win in Tuesday's Primary (and probably have some top notch people discuss tactics with the totally corrupt Registrar of voting people) tells me everything I need to know.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
26. This place won't matter even the slightest after the censorship hammer comes down.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:19 PM
Jun 2016

It'll be an out-of-touch Camp Weathervane outpost...a pointless echo-chamber with absolutely no influence on the election. The real discussion (actual discussion...) will be happening elsewhere.

democrattotheend

(11,605 posts)
18. This article highlights a lot of my concerns
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 07:55 PM
Jun 2016

I have said many times that I don't hate Hillary. In fact, there are many things I like about her. But she is just not a good candidate, and has pretty much said so herself. It's a shame, because I think in many ways she would make a very good president. I felt the same way about Kerry in 2004 after I got over the sting of the primaries.

I really don't think she compromised national security. But I think she has handled the controversy poorly, and let it feed into the narrative that she is not trustworthy.

trudyco

(1,258 posts)
23. Explains exactly why people mistrust her and it keeps growing
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 08:34 PM
Jun 2016

Although I think the reason she lies about the lies is because she has some massive things to hide.

lmbradford

(517 posts)
27. I was called a piece of shit...
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:21 PM
Jun 2016

Because I will not vote for her, I am not responsible for the outcome vs Trump. That is her supporters' responsibility, not mine.

I am proud of my candidate, I have no doubt that Dems will vote for him because he is a good guy, he has principles, he works for the people, and he will represent all Dems in a way that has integrity. If he doesn't win against Trump, then that is on me. I support who I believe will win and who represents me.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
45. Yes, I do
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 08:42 AM
Jun 2016

He just seems like a goofball and the source doesn't seem to be a particularly serious one.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
30. On the upside, Republican talking heads, pundits, et al. are rallying around her.
Thu Jun 2, 2016, 11:25 PM
Jun 2016

If she is the nominee, whether the Republican base will heed them or stick with Trump remains to be seen.

I do not believe sane indies will vote for Trump. Some will vote Democratic. Some will stay home or vote only down ticket, though.

What the percentages are, I have no idea.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
51. But unless those rich Republicans have made the switch to Democratic voter registration,
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 03:53 PM
Jun 2016

they cannot vote in the California primary.

And even if they did make that switch, they probably got sent a Rep ballot. This means they will need to bring that ballot in with them to the polling place, have it spoiled and then insist on being given a Democratic ballot. (If offered a provisional then they probably cannot rely on that getting counted.

jamese777

(546 posts)
53. Clinton Expands Her Lead Over Trump
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 04:06 PM
Jun 2016

Since Barack Obama beat John McCain by 7 points, I'd be ok with Hillary Clinton beating Trump by 9.

New Reuters/Ipsos Poll Has Clinton Expanding Her Lead Over Trump To Nine Points
By Sean Colarossi on Thu, Jun 2nd, 2016
Since last week, when Clinton led in the same poll by just five points, the former Secretary of State has nearly doubled her lead over Trump.

As Donald Trump’s polling bounce continues to recede, a new Reuters/Ipsos poll shows likely Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton extending her lead to nine points – 43 percent to 34 percent – over the spray-tanned billionaire.

Since last week, when Clinton led in the same poll by just five points, the former Secretary of State has nearly doubled her lead over Trump.

The head-to-head general election numbers aren’t the only promising findings in the survey for the Democratic candidate.

On favorability, Donald Trump’s numbers are twice as bad as Clinton’s with a whopping 60 percent of respondents saying they have a negative view of the Republican candidate. Just 40 percent say they like Trump. While the former Secretary of State doesn’t have stellar likeability numbers, she has consistently performed better than the Trump on that measure.

As the Democratic primary race comes to a close, the survey also shows Clinton leading Bernie Sanders by eight points – 51 percent to 43 percent – with less than a week to go before she will likely clinch the nomination with a win in the New Jersey Democratic primary.

[Exceprt]
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/06/02/reutersipsos-poll-clinton-expanding-lead-trump-points.html

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
57. Better written than I expected, thanks for the link
Fri Jun 3, 2016, 09:43 PM
Jun 2016

Sharp person, might have quite a career.

http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/nathan-robinson

Research Interests: Criminal justice, prisons, sociology of law, architecture and urban planning

Nathan Robinson is a PhD student in Sociology & Social Policy. Nathan is interested in criminal justice policy, particularly in Louisiana. His research focuses on adult education in U.S. prisons and on the politics of indigent legal defense. At Yale Law School, he co-directed the Green Haven Prison Project and worked for the New Orleans public defender and the ACLU's National Prison Project. He is also the author of The Man Who Accidentally Wore His Cravat to a Gymnasium, a children's book about fashion and conformity.

Previous degrees:
BA (African American Studies, Politics), MA (Politics), Brandeis University
JD, Yale Law School

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
58. thus email business won't amount to anything unless
Sat Jun 4, 2016, 01:33 AM
Jun 2016

The rich lose faith in Hillary, which they seem unlikely to do.

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