What do you think the race would look like right now if it wasn't Trump?

[oberliner]

Let's say they had someone like Kasich or Marco or Jeb.

What do you folks think? Would we still have a nice lead?

[TreasonousBastard]

1. With the beating that Hillary's taking, I suspect Kasich could wipe the floor with her.

[elleng]

2. Yes, he'd likely be the toughest against her.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. I'm crossing my fingers and saying little prayers that...

the deal isn't in to dump Trump and sneak Kasich in. I don't like Kasich at all, but he was the best of a bad crowd with the chops to take on Hillary and keep Congress R.

And now, compared to Trump, he would look fantastic to all the Hillary haters and generic conservatives.

[trixie]

27. Interesting

take on strategy. Wow! Scary!

[moonscape]

40. This was mentioned on Charlie Rose last night, but all

options to replace Trump had problems. With Kasich, it was said Trump supporters wouldn't vote for him, but earlier today I queried: where would they go?

Would they hate Hillary too much to stay home?

Maybe it would depend on what Trump would tell them to do. The only ways he gets out of the race are:

1. Kicked out
2. Claiming election is rigged so he's out

Either way, his supporters are pissed enough many might do what he told them, and for certain he wouldn't say vote for Kasich!

But - the Republicans who would vote for Hillary would be lost, and many who really (really) don't like Hillary would be delighted to have another place to go.

It's worrying.

[LAS14]

98. Trump supporters aren't voting FOR something...

... they're voting AGAINST everything. So they wouldn't care who won the election if it wasn't their favorite destructive tornado.

[TeamPooka]

178. Hard to believe they passed on a Ohio Gov. as a nominee but #Awesome.

[oberliner]

4. He wasn't the most inspiring campaigner

The Republicans didn't seem all that keen on him.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. True, but they are less keen on Hillary, and don't fear him.

[oberliner]

15. True - they sure do hate Hillary

But I can't see him filling arenas of screaming fanatics the way Trump does.

[KMOD]

9. Kasich came in 4th place.

Not only did he not beat tRump, he also lost to Cruz and Rubio who had dropped out much earlier than him.

Kasich would be just as bad at trying to gain the women vote as tRump.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. If he sneaks in, I hope you're right.

[KMOD]

17. He's not sneaking in.

They are stuck with tRump.

The smart ones will distance themselves and try again in four years.

But they made their bed, now they have to sleep in in .

There is no Republican candidate who could step in and defeat Hillary. Not one.

But that said, we really need to GOTV.

[JustAnotherGen]

101. This

The smart ones will distance themselves and try again in four years.


And no way in hell would Kasich or Cruz step up to the plate and take one for the team. Their actions and words have signaled they are running in 2020. Why attach themselves to a losing proposition?

And they can also say - we wanted the 'will of the Republican voters' to hold sway. There's nothing to gain by either of these two stepping into a shit storm of ignorance and stupidity.

[EffieBlack]

22. Perhaps - but let's not forget that the all-Trump all-the-time primary coverage left the other

Republican candidates, including Kasich, unexamined and thus, unscathed. Kasich has A LOT of baggage, but he looks pretty good right now because: 1) he hasn't been vetted at all; and 2) everyone looks good compared to the walking disaster who got the nomination.

If Kasich were the nominee, he'd have undergone a lot more scrutiny and his baggage would be weighing him down considerably at this point. It's possible he would win, but I doubt he'd be wiping the floor with anyone.

[Squinch]

70. Yes. Unvetted candidates often seem better than vetted candidates. Till the covers come off.

We should name it the "trump effect."

[TeeYiYi]

161. "The Trump Effect"...

Makes sense, though I don't think their emperor had covers on to begin with. They just wanted to believe that he did.

TYY

[Squinch]

175. And the media air brushed some pants onto him.

[TeeYiYi]

179. Virtual chameleon pants...

Seemingly there one minute and gone the next.

TYY

[Squinch]

182. On another note:

I love your Gibran quote. I lost a friend yesterday, and it is a perfect description of what she was. Thank you for that.

[TeeYiYi]

188. .

TYY

[Squinch]

59. What beating is that? She's ahead 15 points nationally and ahead in most states. What are you

talking about?

[TreasonousBastard]

190. Now that my post has been unhidden, I can say that I did not mean an electoral beating...

just the constant mawkish bad press she's getting, even from some on "our" own side.

Kasich could come in as a "white knight" and get back the R support, and probably pick up some Sanders votes, too.

[Demsrule86]

62. Hillary is taking a beating?

It seems to me she is beating Donald down...why do you post this?

[Squinch]

63. Reality is hard for some people.

[Demsrule86]

74. Right.

Some are disappointed that Hillary is winning...which blows my mind considering the alternative.

[Squinch]

75. It screws with their plans for that "I told you so" moment. Which was never in the cards anyway.

[Demsrule86]

79. Exactly right

They can't believe the Hillary turned out to be the best candidate for our side. ...the swiftboating would be well underway with a different candidate....any candidate really...but Hillary has been attacked for years...it is all baked in.

[Squinch]

82. There needs to be a new term for the vetting she has gone through. Not only

vetting, but dozens of "inquiries" and "investigating panels" and crap, all of which turned up NOTHING EVER.

She has been vetted so much that people have "Hillary vetting fatigue" and I think normal people who don't follow politics as closely as we do just don't even hear it any more. They can say she killed her mother and people will say, "Yeah, ok. Why don't you investigate that...zzzz."

[Demsrule86]

85. What else can they say?

But any other candidate would face swiftboating by the GOP.

[Squinch]

86. All the super mega vetting might have innoculated her against that. Which is interesting. And

I guarantee they will try it.

[Demsrule86]

95. They will no doubt. nt

[still_one]

154. That is a good point. This hypothetical nonesense serves no pupose except to perhaps

imply that she wouldn't be doing as well against the other candidates, with the same implication that the MSM spews, "how she really isn't very well liked"

I know this might bother some circles, but for such a supposed unpopular person, she received 4 million more votes than anyone else in the primaries.

This sounds like something Andrea Mitchell would be pushing.

[TreasonousBastard]

191. Now that my post has been unhidded, I can reply that I did not mean an electoral beating...

just the constant mawkish bad press she's getting, even from some on "our" own side.

Kasich could come in as a "white knight" and get back the R support, and probably pick up some Sanders votes, too.

This would not be good.

[Demsrule86]

196. Fair enough.

She has always been attacked ...this time the far far left has joined in.

[redstateblues]

89. What universe are you living in? Hillary is way ahead.

[TreasonousBastard]

192. Now that my post has been unhidden, I can reply that I did not mean an electoral beating...

just the constant mawkish bad press she's getting, even from some on "our" own side.

Kasich could come in as a "white knight" and get back R support, and probably pick up some Sanders votes, too.

This would not be good.

[citood]

207. Really?

My instinct is that any candidate other than Trump vs HRC would mimic 2012 fairly closely.

People's loyalty is usually to the party...as demonstrated by most Bernie supporters going on to support HRC. Kasich and HRC are both fairly generic, and 'safe' candidates, so I would expect it to play out much like the last election.

[KMOD]

3. Yes.

It would certainly be closer, but we would still be leading.

Our nominee is hands down better than anything they have to offer.

Hillary Clinton deserves a lot of credit. She has been running a superb campaign and working hard to get every vote she can.

[oberliner]

5. I'm not sure the Trump people would've gotten behind a "normal" Republican

They seem to be their own separate category with the other Republicans reluctantly along for the ride.

[KMOD]

14. The majority of that party has turned batshit crazy.

I thank President Obama for that.

But seriously, it's just not fun and games anymore. A tRump Presidency is not something to laugh at or dismiss. We simply cannot let it happen. Even rational Republicans know that.

[forest444]

6. Narco Rubio would be an easy target due to the sleaze factor; Kasich would be difficult.

Jeb(!) would be somewhere in between - except that, being a Bush, you could almost certainly expect an October Surprise of one kind or another to possibly put him over the top.

Derailing Jeb was the single most patriotic thing Trump has probably ever done for his country, or is likely to ever do.

[oberliner]

11. Kasich was such a dud in the primaries though

Would the Republican base really have gotten behind him?

The Trump-ians don't seem like Kasich types.

[forest444]

18. Good point.

There's the school of thought that says that Kasich's "good reputation" (mostly borne out of voter ignorance over a man they've barely heard of) could have been effectively used against Hillary, given the way the media has savaged her non-stop since 1992.

On the other hand, many Rethugs do seem him as an Obamacare-signing, illegal alien-coddling RINO - and that would certainly hurt him (although it;s hard to say if by very much).

I do think he would have been harder to beat than Humpty Trumpty; but I guess we'll never know.

[Demsrule86]

67. I live in Ohio

Kasich is a terrible governor...and don't believe the popular bull shit ...he is not popular with many and would have lost had they not run that tool Fitzgerald...Hillary is doing fine and it is too late for any other candidate and they won't any way for the sake of Congress, she would still win. The question is in the middle of great news polling wise and favorability for Hillary...why are you beating this dead horse?

[unblock]

8. honestly, i think obama won this for hillary a long time ago.

i'm a firm believer that presidential elections are largely (not exclusively, but largely) a referendum on the current administration.

obama did a good job and therefore keep the same party in the white house.

obviously there's more going on in a presidential election than just that, but i do believe this is by far the best predictor.

lichtman's keys largely confirm this, as most of the keys fall into this category.


so, i think hillary would beat anyone they sent up against us. the general election campaign season would seem more conventional, but the result would still be a hillary win.

that said, these things are not unrelated. i think one of the reasons we ended up with trump was because the republicans couldn't get behind any one more conventional candidate, and that in turn was in large part due to the fact that hillary was set to win the general. the powers that be, the media, and the big donors knew, or sensed, that hillary would win. so people like paul ryan stayed out, and the clowns stayed in; the koch brothers and others didn't ensure a good candidate would get the nomination because it didn't matter, they were always going to lose.


sure, they'd have a better chance with a candidate that wasn't a non-stop embarrassment, but they all knew that hillary was going to be a formidable opponent in the environment of growth, no major scandals, no major foreign policy disasters, etc.

[oberliner]

13. Obama's popularity is a huge plus for Hillary

On that score, I definitely agree with you.

However, Hillary does still have some pretty high unfavorables and so I think a non-Trump Republican might have presented different challenges.

[KMOD]

20. Hillary Clinton has high unfavorable ratings for the simple fact that she is a woman.

I know many of you will not admit that, but it's the truth.

She also has overcome it during her entire lifetime.

The fact that she is successful, and wins regardless of those ratings is an astonishing testament to her ability.

If Hillary were a man, she would be crushing it right now. And that's the damn truth.

[oberliner]

29. I respectfully disagree

In fact, I think some of her appeal as a candidate is actually the fact that she is a woman and would be the first woman president.

[KMOD]

36. Of course there is some of that.

But do you understand how difficult it is for women to make it as far as she has?

Do you understand how cultural perceptions are stacked against her?

Do you understand that it took someone who is amazing as her to even have a shot at it?

[oberliner]

55. Absolutely

I am very impressed with how she has been able to overcome these challenges.

[runaway hero]

108. ...

"People don't like her because she's a woman"


"She would still win either way"

Which is it?

[Maru Kitteh]

143. Not difficult. Some people do not like women. Hillary would still win either way.

See? Easy.

[runaway hero]

147. The whole country is not sexist.

there are other reasons why people don't like, vaild ones too. I mean there a still a lot of people who like Trump.

[Blasphemer]

177. I would argue that it's for the simple fact that she's a Clinton

But sexism does play a role in that (as do racial and class politics). The Clintons represent a reality the GOP establishment spent decades (and largely successfully) fighting to prevent - the type of coalition building that threatens the root of their power. Whatever criticisms I've had of the Clintons through the years, it's become quite clear to me that the hatred the GOP has successfully engineered is rooted in the vilest combination of all of -isms and phobias. The attempt to beat them down is quite reflective of their wholesale disdain for the American populace.

[DemonGoddess]

180. ^^^This!!!

With her qualifications and SHOWN abilities, were she a man, the opposition would be looking at a juggernaut. The MSM, which is MOSTLY male, would certainly not be saying she should "smile more", "yells too much" and the like.

[George Eliot]

16. I always thought Kasich would be their strongest candidate esp. with his Ohio support.

He has two qualities working for him: he's likable and comes across as trustworthy. I think Americans really go for that.

[KMOD]

21. I don't know where you've heard that.

Many people who know him consider him a hot tempered jackass.

He's also the jerk who defunded Planned Parenthood in Ohio.

There is only one trustworthy candidate this year, and that's Hillary Clinton, and it's about damn time that people recognize it.

She has a decades long proven record, the rest of these clowns are bums.

[EffieBlack]

24. Thank you

[George Eliot]

123. Why so quick to take offense? I agree but most people just see the public persona. That's my point.

Hard to have conversation when so reactive. I still think he would have been our strongest adversary. I repeat, he was likable and seemed trustworthy. Just like voting for George Bush, I think he would have given Clinton the most trouble and I worried about that. Is that better?

[KMOD]

124. He came in 4th place behind Rubio who had dropped out.

His own party didn't want him. I'm not taking offense. I just don't see the point in arguing hypotheticals about who would give our nominee the most trouble. What's the point?

[George Eliot]

145. Of course. Look at the # of candidates. He was establishment. Both JK & HRC are establishment.

And republican voters were divided into so many small groups this year. I mean Ted Cruz? OMG! Rubio? These people were so far off the charts in honesty and integrity and extremism, they all took a slice of Republican voters with them. But do you really think in a two-way race with Clinton Republicans would have voted Clinton over Kasich? And given her unfavorability numbers, I think a significant number of democrats would have voted Republican. I can't prove it. This is my opinion. But that is why I believed he would be the one Republican who could beat her. Whether he is or not, he comes across much like Bush did.

There's a difference between intraparty politics and the final election between a normal Democrat and a normal Republican.

[KMOD]

158. Who freaking cares about your hypothetical race between

Clinton and Kasich?

You actually believe Democrats would vote for Kasich over Clinton? Is that something you would do? Is that why you are playing out this make believe scenario?

[George Eliot]

173. Hey, you didn't have to join the conversation. I opined to OP and you interjected so get over it.

[Demsrule86]

125. thank you! nt

[emulatorloo]

38. He's a extreme conservative pretending to be a moderate.

Just as wacky as the rest of them.

[bettyellen]

144. The trust worthy thing goes away As soon as the mud gets flung, sanders and kasock were never vetted

Both would have taken a dive in the polls the moment their opponents took the gloves off. But they were not doing well enough for voters to be put through the spinner.

[cynatnite]

151. He was the only one who I thought could beat Hillary had he won...

He comes across as moderate, even though his record isn't. He's likable.

The Ohio thing was a huge plus.

It would've been a tight race, IMO.

[cheapdate]

19. Shit no!

I'm 100% behind Hillary, but any of the other GOP front runners win and we'd be looking at a total loss all up and down the ticket.

[GulfCoast66]

23. Only Kasich could, maybe would, beat her

The others are weak. Kasich, regardless of our thoughts about his values, has an impressive record. Plus...Ohio.

[EffieBlack]

25. His record is not all that impressive

And he's not that popular in Ohio. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/2/john-kasich-governor-ohio-losing-support-back-home/

Not to mention, he is a jerk who has gotten a free pass because Trump sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

[JI7]

28. but people don't look at records and he comes off a lot better and likable than Trump

he is also smarter than W Bush .

and the Republicans would be united and much more organized and going after Hillary and Obama.

we could still pull it off in the end but it would be much tougher and closer.

[EffieBlack]

34. That's because he's not running and hasn't gotten any scrutiny

But if he were the nominee, he would not be getting compared to Trump and he would be under a microscope and getting raked over the coals. I agree he'd be tougher to beat the Trump, but he wouldn't be a shoo-in to beat Hillary, not by a longshot.

[JI7]

35. i don't trust the media . i remember how it was with W Bush . even now it's not the media

but rather trump himself who keeps bringing up the crap that is making him lose support.

[Demsrule86]

76. If he was the presidential candidate

His record would be examined closely. Kasich would not fare well...he is a bad guy who is hurting many.

[JI7]

142. yet he was reelected in ohio. And trumps or Bush's record are not bEing examined

Trump is dOing badly because of what he himself keeps saying.

But media isn't doing much on his failed business record.

[Demsrule86]

146. Do you know anything about the Ohio election?

We had a terrible candidate. He didn't even try. A presidential nominee would be subject to oppositional research which wold destroy Kasich.

[JI7]

157. people don't care about issues and media dOesn't report in issues

[Demsrule86]

163. People do care about certain issues.

But we can agree to disagree.

[JI7]

164. those people already know who they will vote for

[Demsrule86]

166. Most years.

This is an unusual election. And Trump is a mushy candidate. But I think Bernie's campaign proved ideas do matter.

[Demsrule86]

189. I think there are conflicted people on the right and the left.

[GulfCoast66]

30. I do not like the SOB

But am not jaded enough to think all Americans think like me. Speaker during a time Americans long for and 2 term governor of the key state of Ohio.

If you think any Democratic candidate would beat him there I just have to disagree.

But he is not the candidate. The republicans have gone bat-shit crazy. They hate Kasich.

[JI7]

26. I wouldn't be surprised if Kasich was leading her. Both Rubio and Jeb are Overrated so i think she

would beat them for sure in the end but the race would be closer.

also, if KAsich was the nominee we would probably have VP running mate SHerrod Brown.

but if it was Jeb or Rubio i think it would still be Kaine .

[Demsrule86]

78. Did you know that Kasich

and his minions passed a law that if a woman has complications from abortion, she can not be admitted to a public hospital? Now we have Catholic and Public hospitals in Ohio...so a woman can die on the hospital steps but if she is treated, the doctor could face jail time...this is who Kasich is. It would all come out if he ran for president. He would not win. And I resent the implication that Hillary is ahead only because she is running against Trump.

[DemonGoddess]

181. ^^^This!!!

Thank you! Living in the state next door, and being the part of Indiana that's considered to also be a part of the metro Cincy area, WE also have seen this here. Of course, we have Pence for governor, and he's even worse.

[Demsrule86]

183. Pence is less sneaky and has destroyed the economy for sure.

Kasich has done less damage but much of that is due to the autos in our state and parts plants for autos...he has hurt our state economically (destroyed the wind industry for his Koch masters) and is a damn liar about medicare which is very difficult to get on. Luckily my daughter who could not go on her Dad's retirement policy they don't have to meet Obamacare standards was able to count scholarship money as income for the purposes of getting Obamacare. We are so thankful that she has medical care. She pays for it herself;she has to which is fine. But last year the state audited her and tried to prove that we pay for her which we don't. I am not stupid I know how it works. she lost scholarship money because of the time the audit took which YSU made up after I complained (she has almost a 4.0 GPA in accounting). She should have been eligible for Medicare. She could not work at all last year as she broke both ankles in a fall and had surgery in December. She still can't stand for any length of time...but is improving. I consider we are living in an occupied state. Kasich barely won the first time in the 2010 sweep and barely one re-election because we had Fitzgerald who was a terrible candidate. Kasich is not as popular as the number indicate. He is hated by middle-class taxpayers like me who have paid for his tax cuts for the rich by increased property taxes,women rights advocates (shut down most PP clinics), teachers (sent more money to Wall Street schools last year than public), unions (tried to get right to work),environmentalists (we can't even swim in most lakes since Kasich arrived) and most recently he has closed many polling places in Dem areas. My town now has one place for the entire town and country areas...there is a parking lot that will hold 30 cars or so. Look for long lines in November. I don't know if Kasich will try to steal Ohio which has been done, he hates Trump...and says he can't win, but who knows?

[Demsrule86]

204. Kasich is really really bad on planned parenthood and abortion rights. He defunded PP

He passed a law that refuses to admit women who have abortions to public hospitals. Think about that...we have either Catholic here (Northeast Ohio) or Public. Already women's health has been put at risk because a miscarriage must be deemed a miscarriage and not an abortion before any treatment can begin...as one who barely survived a miscarriage at the hands of a right-wing doctor, any delay can be fatal. Doctors face jail time if they treat a person who could be bleeding to death on the hospital steps. This is who Kasich is...and I promise you if the media did not bring expose this a third party PAC would. Also, it is widely believed, that he expanded medicaid, and on paper he did...but try to sign up for it and see what happens:a big nothing. You can't call them or even make an appointment One agency handles child welfare, unemployment, and Medicaid. My daughter broke both her ankles...she is a college student and our insurance is a retirement plan from autos (Dad did 30 years). She does not get to stay on until 26 like most ObamaCare plans thus we needed coverage, and she could not work;she should have been eligible for Medicaid but we were never able to get her on any plan...they asked for her W2's even after we told them in a letter, she could not work...lucky for us we were able to use her school money as income and sign up for an ObamaCare policy which is great by the way...much better coverage than I have. Thus many Ohioans who are eligible for Medicaid continue with no insurance right now. And Kasich is attempting to remove thousands of Ohioans that are already on Medicaid from Medicaid. Kasich gave more money to Wall Street schools last year than to public schools and there is a big scandal brewing...where these Wall Street schools are not held accountable and are misusing taxpayer money...it is coming and would have already been a burning issue if Kasich was the nominee. Kasich took thousands of dollars of state aid away from Townships this year even though we have a surplus...it is going to be used for his fat cat friends. He destroyed the wind industry because Koch told him to... John Kasich is a total fraud and if he was the nominee he would be vetted and would lose badly.

[MFM008]

31. Within a couple points..

For us

[rusty quoin]

32. I say it's moot.

The Trump supporters, the Ron Paul supporters are a militant group beyond anything seen in modern history, and they would not vote for Kasich.

Hillary would win.

[grossproffit]

33. Hillary would turn Kasich into another Rick Lasio.

[sofa king]

37. A smaller version of the same thing.

The only difference would be a reversal of enthusiasm between the stupids and the evils. They would still be in the gutter and Mrs. Clinton would still be taking the high road, and the gap would still be widening.

A big part of what's going on here is the shrinking minority of racist white chauvinists is getting scared of what happens when they no longer have the ability to prevent others from doing what only they do to everyone else. The answer is, "nothing," but they'll never believe that, because of the darkness in their own hears.

[runaway hero]

39. Kasich or Rubio would be winning.

It's the truth.


And Trump fans would have stayed home, like they did for dole and romney.

[KMOD]

41. Oh, bullshit.

This shit is getting really old.

[lancer78]

44. How is it Bullshit?

The Republicans have done an excellent job tearing down the Clintons for the past 25 years. There is a reason her negatives are still high. And before you say it, it is not all because of sexism. I am tired of that excuse being used anytime someone criticizes a woman politician. The CEO of the Real Estate company I worked for was a woman. Yeah, she faced a lot of sexism, but the company failed because she had bad judgement. I would have said the same about a man.

[Squinch]

83. You had a woman boss, so sexism is not really a factor. Kay.

[Demsrule86]

87. Her negatives are improving...doesn't that make you happy? I know great news!!!

She has been attacked by the right and more recently the far left and yet is still standing...I call that grit...she would beat any shitty Republican despite these ...Hillary can only beat a bad candidate threads.

[lancer78]

150. It actually does because i really think HRC would be a good POTUS n/t

[Demsrule86]

167. We can agree to agree.

We need to try to get at least the Senate and I would love love to get the house.

[runaway hero]

105. Exactly.

How is she within 5 points on unfavorables with Donny? Because of gop propaganda and probably some of the stuff is her fault (emails...)

[Demsrule86]

126. And it has not worked

Her negatives were not that high at the beginning of the primary. Primaries always lower approval of one candidate or the other.

[grossproffit]

45. Yep, just like this OP. The primaries are over and these "what ifs" are bullshit.

[Squinch]

61. Upthread they threw out the statement "Hillary is taking a beating" when she is miles

ahead in just about every poll. They just can't let go of their delusions.

I feel like I've stumbled into JPR. I wish they would go back there since the world of factual reality doesn't seem to agree with them.

[FSogol]

71. LOL, being ahead by 15 points is taking a beating!

* ∞

[Squinch]

73. Well... it's Hillary. 15 points ahead is just not good enough! She has to do better if she is

going to be taken seriously by some of our friends here.

If it were their candidate that was 15 points ahead, they'd be wetting themselves.

[Demsrule86]

88. I saw that ...very very annoying. nt

[Demsrule86]

80. Nonsense

Neither would be ahead...and anyway it is not happening.

[Expecting Rain]

42. The GOP did not have a candidate

That's how they ended up with Trump.

HRC would have creamed anyone in that field.

[Agnosticsherbet]

43. The mood of the Republican electorate was to find a Red Meat Candidate. Cruz would mount a better

campaign because he is a more disciplined and experienced candidate who knows how to campaign.

Ultimately, I think he is also too extreme for the mainstream, and Clinton would beat him.

Kasich, Marco, Jeb, and the other also-rans never had a chance. The Republican Electorate is too pissed off. The only chance any of the fair-haired establishment candidates had was for the others to drop out. If there had been 4 or 5 candidates, it would have bee a replay of 2012, with an establishment candidate, probably Jeb Bush. Bush or Rubio could have taken Florida, which would have made it more difficult. I think Clinton would have won, but it would have been very close.

[oberliner]

50. Huh?

I've been knocking on doors and making phone calls for Clintons since the early 1990s.

I can't wait to see Hillary elected President.

I don't think I've ever written a single negative thing about her on DU.

[auntpurl]

57. Well, I apologise if that was not your intention.

But the replies have certainly taken that opportunity - the opportunity to reiterate the tired old Hillary bash that "Hillary is so weak a candidate, so universally disliked, that the only way she can win is to be against a candidate as terrible as Trump".

I will self-delete my original post. But I really don't think this OP is a good idea.

[oberliner]

58. Thanks

Honesty, I just posted the OP since I had been watching so much of Trump and seeing how awful he is. It got me wondering if we would be doing as well with some "normal" Republican. On the one hand, there wouldn't be all this hand-wringing on their side, but on the other hand, would the crazy Trump-ians get behind a Kasich type?

Are we in a situation, as some have proposed, where we as Democrats have such a favorable Electoral Map that we are positioned to win regardless of who the candidates are?

I just thought it was something interesting to discuss.

[Demsrule86]

81. I agree with you...sneaky attack. nt

[RandiFan1290]

54. Thank you

Obvious is obvious.

For a looong time. You're not the only one to point it out.

[oberliner]

56. Seriously?

What are you basing this on?

[Festivito]

47. A little tighter. Bored Rs would show up to vote, where bored Ds would not show.

That would make it more of a horse race.

[oberliner]

53. But the Trump-ians might not rally behind a boring Republican

They seem to be in their own category.

[Festivito]

132. Right, Trumpians would not, but regular Rs would still vote.

Some regular Rs are/would jump ship.

[Demsrule86]

127. That is not true and an attack on Democrats.

I would crawl across broken glass naked to vote for Hillary or Bernie for that matter even though I did not support him in the primary. The courts are at stake and the next 30 years or so. MY kids and future Grand-Kids future is at stake too.

[Festivito]

134. It's an opinion. And, no it's not an attack on Democrats.

Trump feeds his base raw meat. It's starting to become rancid meat. The usual repetition of the propaganda under Trump somehow is becoming toxic to too many Rs.

Under some other R, the usual tactics would be along side the usual D tactics and that would lead to a more evenly distributed race.

It is well known that Ds do not show up for non-presidential elections. It's a bored thing is what I'm thinking.

[Demsrule86]

149. Saying Democrats get bored and don't vote is unfair and untrue in my opinion.

I have a higher opinion of Democrats than that...call it what you will.

[Festivito]

176. Why is it then that Ds do not come out to vote in non-presidential elections?

Having high opinion of Ds is nice, but, if such ignores reality, it could hurt Ds chances of winning.

[Demsrule86]

184. I think much of that has to do with the fringe

complaining that there is no difference between the Dems and the GOP's...in mid-term years, they are at in spades. And consider that except for Bush...in 2002 and maybe 2004...not sure...the party that holds the white house loses the mid-term. There are few exceptions...Clinton in 98 is one for example. Calling our voters names like "lazy" is disrespectful.

[Festivito]

185. Not calling something what it is might lead to ignoring a problem that could be solved.

Bored is not the same as lazy. Fringe in general can refer to voters or reporters.

[Demsrule86]

187. I am referring to those on the left who trashed Obama in 12 and 14

as being a sell-out. It is called depressing the vote... the parties are all the same blah blah...one of the offenders was Jill Stein and the Greens.

[Cali_Democrat]

48. No Republican could beat a Dem on the presidential level as of now...

...because of the electoral college.

Republicans need to win pretty much every swing state in order to win.

All Dems have to do is win Ohio, for example.

Also, I'm not even sure if I would classify New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Virginia as swing states anymore. They're the new Pennsylvania. The media likes to call them swing states, but they will be blue states for the foreseeable future. Florida will be getting there soon.

Demographics will spell the doom of the GOP. There just aren't enough angry white males for them to win.

A GOPer winning would take a miracle.

[oberliner]

52. That is a pretty good place to be

Bodes well for our party for decades to come.

[LostOne4Ever]

49. All of them would be losing but not as bad as Trump

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#00009d]I personally believe the "emerging democratic majority" that was spoken of during the 1990's has finally come into being as the Obama Coalition.

Simply put, by pandering to old white straight protestant males (OWSPM) the republican party has painted itself into a corner. That demographic is dying off and the party has managed to Piss off every other demographic that they would need to win.



Women outnumber and out vote men and they are a major part of our coalition. Racial minorities like Hispanics, Asians, and African Americans are all staunchly democratic because of the racist and xenophobic overtures of the Right Wing Republicans. LGBTQIA americans and Religious minorities like Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, ect are pushed to the left because of the Repukes pandering to Protestant Theonomists and theocrats. And, young voters are incredibly liberal and are getting bigger with each generation.

Almost every single one of these demographic blocks are growing like mad!

It is almost scary to think, but GWB might have been the smartest republican of his time. He actually tried to reach out to hispanics at times and grow the republican base. But the racists and xenophobes quelched that and have pretty much give the democratic party the future of this country.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of the new era of Democrats, where our party rules over the presidency.

I feel our future is looking so very bright! [/font]

[oberliner]

51. This may be true

The electoral map certainly looks favorable to Democrats moving for, and the demographics favor our party.

[Demsrule86]

60. Why does it matter?

I think Kasich is a tool and when they looked at how he governs ...now trying to kick people off medicare, woman's right to choose(our laws are worse than Alabama and is ruining our schools...he woud not do well. Marco and Jeb are disliked by their base as well and so is Kasich. Hillary is a good candidate and would beat any of them.

[oberliner]

65. I just thought it was an interesting question to contemplate

My thought, as some others have pointed out, is that we may have such a favorable Electoral Map right now that just about any Democrat would beat just about any Republican.

And the demographics of the US suggest it could be this way for a long time to come.

[Squinch]

68. After this election it will be that way for a long time. I think people are so horrified by Trump

that they are now forced to look at Hillary, even if they hated her in the past.

When they do look at her record, there are a lot of people saying that they never knew what she did and they see that the smears that went on for decades were nothing but lies.

This is going to get the Democrats a lot of new voters that will stay after this election.

[eShirl]

64. Romneyshambles 2.0

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Against a normal Repub, two man race - Hillary 51 Normal Repub 49

Last edited Fri Aug 5, 2016, 08:36 AM - Edit history (1)

Demographics are still demographics.

[Demsrule86]

90. I absolutely do not agree with this statement. nt

Hillary is a good candidate and would win convincingly no matter who the candidate is.

[LenaBaby61]

69. OMFG...

@ this thread. Let me get out

[FSogol]

72. This thread:

Looks like the Guests are taking a beating!

[oberliner]

77. You dropped in just to post that?

Seems odd.

Anyway, I think this thread raises an interesting point:

The success we are enjoying right now is not simply because Trump is Trump, but because Democrats have a built in advantage over Republicans in presidential elections.

[Demsrule86]

91. Now that is true. We have an advantage built in

but Hillary is not 'under attack' and would win against any GOP nominee.

[oberliner]

117. Agreed

Though it might be a little closer against a non-Trump candidate, but maybe not.

[TeeYiYi]

162. It would be a LOT closer...

...because the Republican Machine with all of its Rovian dirty tricks would be out in force and backing their candidate with full on, no-holds-barred, BFEE grade steal-the-election enthusiasm.

As it sits right now, their Party is completely fractured. With Trump, they really fucked themselves.

TYY

[Mike Nelson]

84. One would be winning...

...Kasich. He was their best "general election" candidate and would beat Bernie easily and Hillary narrowly. Hillary would defeat Marco or Jeb. Bernie would mop up the floor with Marco, but have trouble with Jeb.

[Demsrule86]

93. Total nonsense.

I live in Ohio and Kasich is not a good guy by any means...he has not faced the scrutiny that he would ...should he be the nominee. You know the idea that Hillary is not a good enough candidate to beat any GOP POS and the breathless underlying message...oh dear what if they change the GOP nominee...is a form of refighting the primary.

[Mike Nelson]

97. I was just giving my...

...opinion. Kasich is not a "good guy" in my opinion - did not mean for anyone to think I liked him. I think he's probably the more dangerous of the entire group. He has that "folksy" nature people claimed they saw in GWB, but I never saw... Kasich's views are wretched, but I think he would adopt a Reagan-manner and dupe the public. I also think Hillary Clinton is a great candidate - and I find her honest and trustworthy.

[Demsrule86]

100. thanks...I may be a bit touchy

but I resent the meme that Hillary is winning only because Trump is a bad candidate.

[geek tragedy]

92. Clinton would be beating Jeb, would be neck and neck with Little Marco

would be losing to Kasich.

I think Kasich would have been close to a guaranteed win for Republicans. Very glad they didn't nominate him.

[Demsrule86]

94. Kasich would not win a general... he is way to extreme.

he could not hide behind is fake moderate pose if he was the nominee. You have no idea who this guy is. I live in Ohio.

[geek tragedy]

96. if George W Bush could pull off being a fake moderate, anyone can

Who he is and who the voters think he is are two different things. Trump was too stupid and vain to hide who he really is.

[Demsrule86]

99. That is not true.

Bush did not govern far right in Texas...he had school initiatives and such. Kasich gave more money to Wall Street schools last year than public schools and has been trying to kill public education. He is facing a scandal with Wall Street schools stealing the taxpayer's money and the schools mostly suck. Also, Kasich made a law that a woman can not be admitted to a public hospital if she has an abortion...since all we have is Catholic and Public in this area that means an hour drive to New York...even women who miscarry must be vetted to ensure they have not had an abortion which leads to complications...if you carry Downs in Ohio...don't think you can have an abortion...disallowed. He shut down as many planned parenthood offices as any Southern state. He has also shut down many voting locations in Democratic areas to punish us for going for Obama...he has attacked unions big time and is busily attempting to kick thousands off of medicare. We don't even have an unemployment office in Ohio...the child welfare agency handles Medicare, unemployment, and welfare as well as kids...Kasich sucks and only won re-election because of Fitzgerald being a really bad candidate. Kasich has also hurt our economy and trashed thousands of jobs in the wind industry ...because he is an errand boy for Koch. We can't swim in most of our lakes this summer because of Kasich's attack on the environment and we have our own lead in the water scandal as well....Kasich is not who you think he is and if he was vetted he would lose.

[JI7]

102. Ohio elected kasich many times.

[Demsrule86]

110. Twice

The first time was in 10 which was a GOP sweep and Strickland narrowly lost. The second time we had a really bad candidate Fitzgerald .... we should have had a primary and vetted this guy. He was a disaster. Also, 2014 was a GOP year...you may recall we lost the senate that year...bad for Dems.

[JI7]

140. he still won including the pres primary in his state which rubio did not do

The point is he isn't scary to most and seen as comfortable choice.

[Demsrule86]

148. Hillary did well too.

She had a higher percentage of the Dem vote than did Trump of the GOP vote.

"Secretary Clinton won the Ohio primary with 57% of the Democratic vote, while her opponent, Bernie Sanders, received just 43%.

Kasich won with 45% of the Republican vote. His most threatening opponent, Donald Trump, received 37%. Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, who later dropped out of the presidential race, received 13% and 3%, respectively.

Voters in Ohio turned out in high numbers to give their governor, John Kasich, a campaign-saving victory over Donald Trump in the GOP race for president and a huge momentum swing for Hillary Clinton, who won handily in the state over Bernie Sanders following her crushing loss last week in Michigan."

http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/ohio

Kasich would not beat Hillary Clinton and those who claim that are just plain wrong in my opinion. And it is not helpful to the progressive cause to imply that the only reason Hillary is winning is that Trump is a weak candidate. It is a way of delegitimizing her presidency should she win which I think she will. Democrats should not be a party to this.

[JI7]

156. i said Hillary is dOing better than Sanders would. you are arguing things which i have not said

[Demsrule86]

165. I am not talking about Sanders.

When Hillary wins and I think she will...the GOP will try to delegitimize her as they always do any Dem...and they will say she didn't win but that Trump lost. And we must not give the ammunition is all.

[geek tragedy]

104. I'm not disagreeing with you on how terrible Kasich is. Not disputing any of that.

Where we disagree is how much voters would notice, or care.

[JI7]

106. yup. i also think Sanders would not be doing nearly as well as Clinton

So while the OP may have meant this to bash Clinton it the "what ifs" can be done many ways.

[geek tragedy]

107. it's very hard to say, Republicans never

made their case against Sanders, hard to say what would have stuck and what would have.

[oberliner]

114. The OP did not mean this to bash Clinton

Speaking as the person who posted this, that was not at all my intention, and I have no idea why anyone would think it was (as others have).

Let me rephrase the question this way:

Is the current strong polling of Hillary Clinton something that we would be seeing regardless of who the Republicans had as their candidate?

If that indeed is the case, it bodes very well for our party moving forward.

Especially as demographic shifts continue to be in our favor.

[Demsrule86]

128. Funny stuff...and I do think that is exactly what the OP meant too.

[Demsrule86]

111. In a primary...they would not care. In fact it might help him.

But in a general with Hillary spending money for opposition research...it would be used effectively against Kasich who would soon be seen as corrupt (going to be a big wall street school scandal) and very extreme. Also, Kasich won't get POC. He attempted to put in voting laws that disenfranchised many...our voting law was struck down. But he has closed numerous polls in Dem areas,

[JoePhilly]

103. Sounds like the topic of a recent GOP mastabatory fantasy ...

... given what's happening to TRump.

[oberliner]

116. Not sure about that

The GOP probably would be floundering regardless of who their candidate was.

The Trump phenomenon shows there is a serious fissure in their party.

[JoePhilly]

118. It's a way from some to claim that ...

... Hillary's victory really isn't a victory at all, because trump sucks as a candidate.

The last thing some will do is give Clinton credit. And this particular fantasy is part of that.

[oberliner]

121. Trump is invigorating the "base" (such as it is) moreso than Kasich or Jeb would've

Hillary might actually have an even bigger lead if it was someone else on the Republican side.

[Demsrule86]

129. True that. nt

[B Calm]

109. Jeb was probably their best candidate, but the country has had enough of the Bush family.

[PatSeg]

112. And I hate to agree with Trump

But Jeb really does come across as "weak". He couldn't have been more wishy-washy during his campaign.

Republicans had 17 candidates and they all pretty much sucked. Guess they need to hire another actor like they did with Reagan!

[JI7]

160. Jeb ss a horrible candidate. he always liked like he hated being there

[Chemisse]

172. Jeb was a big disappointment as a candidate for the GOP.

He just wasn't up for it.

While Hillary was badly hobbled with the email drumbeat, I still don't think any of the 17 could have beat her. Kasich probably would've been their best bet though.

[Haveadream]

113. The Trump or Busters would fracture support for any replacement GOP candidate going forward

Last edited Fri Aug 5, 2016, 11:30 AM - Edit history (2)

The "what ifs" were tried and failed miserably.

All the Republicans who would supposedly vote for Kasich or Marco or Jeb were barely able to give them even single digit wins in the Primary. Every mentioned substitute candidate dropped out mid election after devastating, humiliating losses to the Orange Menace. These also rans have not suddenly become popular with the vast majority of the GOP. The "establishment" GOP is gone in the wake of Obama. They lost any semblence of a base and the lunatics have been running the asylum since the rise of the Tea Party.

As for changing horses in mid stream: Not sure what mental gymnastics advocates of this strategy are using to come to a "winning" conclusion other than desperation. The same vast majority of Republicans who voted against Kasich, Jeb and Marco in favor of Trump would be even less likely to vote for them now. And based on their proclivity for violence and guns, might even stage an armed Tea Party Trump styled militia and protest.

As for Hillary's "negatives", of course there are many. There will always be haters. At the same time, there are millions more who love her and trust her. That is why she is winning and by a lot! No matter what or who they throw at her at this point, she will trounce them, just as she has been doing.

[oberliner]

115. Agreed

I am not sure that the Trump-ians would be so quick to embrace someone who they consider to be a weak Republican.

[workinclasszero]

119. Kasich or Jebby

Would still be in the game, I'm sure.

I doubt either one of them would have berated the father of an American war hero for days who's son gave his life for this country.

Trump's ego is bringing down the whole stinking rotten facade of the republican party!

[runaway hero]

120. People on DU

have no idea how much hillary is disliked by people.


even now, you get folks saying "trump is human" "trump tells it like it is"


hillary? "she's too calculating" "i can't trust her"


even with all the lies trump has told, it never comes up in normal conversation.

[Haveadream]

122. Intensity of hate does not equal the number of people who feel that way

I know more than a few people who despise Hilary with the heat of a thousand suns. They quiver and shake when they talk about her and equate her with the worst of murderous tyrants who have destroyed millions of lives since the beginning of time. Fortunately, despite the overwhelming, seething viscerality of their hatred, there are apparently not enough of them to outweigh people who are sane.

[Demsrule86]

130. Well what an interesting opinion.

I guess the polls don't reflect your 'experience'.

[grossproffit]

138. Which is why she lost the nomination. Oh wait...she won.

[Squinch]

139. People who talk about how much Hillary is disliked don't seem to get that the polls and

election results prove that she is disliked less than all the other primary candidates and all the other general election candidates.

[wildeyed]

168. Thanks for your concern!

But I got past worrying about what "folks" were saying once I figured out how to read a poll

[democrattotheend]

131. I don't think Hillary would be doing nearly as well

She has not managed to shake perceptions that she is untrustworthy. Unless and until she does, I think she is vulnerable against almost any other Republican.

[wildeyed]

133. Kasich would have been harder to beat.

But the GOP is so batshit crazy, they don't nominate their best candidate. Huntsman was better last go around, but he was "too liberal" because he stated that he believes in science.

Rubio and Jeb! were the suck. Better than the one they picked, but not by much.

What's your point? We are winning. That is good.

[bananakabob]

135. Cruz would be the nominee.

And the Republican Party would be just as ridiculous.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

136. Speculative. nt

[helpisontheway]

137. I think Kasich could beat her because he does not

seems as crazy as the rest of the group. It would be close with Jeb but I think she would probably win.

[Demsrule86]

205. Kasich would be vetted. He has real problems with the abortion issue and deffunded

Kasich defunded planned parenthood. Also, he passed a law that refuses to admit women who have abortions to public hospitals. Think about that...we have either Catholic here (Northeast Ohio) or Public. Already women's health has been put at risk because a miscarriage must be deemed a miscarriage and not an abortion before any treatment can begin...as one who barely survived a miscarriage at the hands of a right-wing doctor, any delay can be fatal. Doctors face jail time if they treat a person who could be bleeding to death on the hospital steps from an abortion. This is who Kasich is...and I promise you if the media did not bring expose this a third party PAC would. Also, it is widely believed, that he expanded Medicaid, and on paper he did...but try to sign up for it and see what happens:a big nothing. You can't call them or even make an appointment One agency handles child welfare, unemployment, and Medicaid. My daughter broke both her ankles...she is a college student and our insurance is a retirement plan from autos (Dad did 30 years). She does not get to stay on until 26 like most ObamaCare plans thus we needed coverage, and she could not work;she should have been eligible for Medicaid but we were never able to get her on any plan...they asked for her W2's even after we told them in a letter, she could not work...lucky for us we were able to use her school money as income and sign up for an ObamaCare policy which is great by the way...much better coverage than I have. Thus many Ohioans who are eligible for Medicaid continue with no insurance right now. And Kasich is attempting to remove thousands of Ohioans that are already on Medicaid from Medicaid. Kasich gave more money to Wall Street schools last year than to public schools and there is a big scandal brewing...where these Wall Street schools are not held accountable and are misusing taxpayer money...it is coming and would have already been a burning issue if Kasich was the nominee. Kasich took thousands of dollars of state aid away from Townships this year even though we have a surplus...it is going to be used for his fat cat friends. He destroyed the wind industry because Koch told him to... John Kasich is a total fraud and if he was the nominee he would be vetted and would lose badly.

[Vinca]

141. It probably would be a much closer race just because no other candidate

has every presented himself and been recognized by nearly everyone to have a psychiatric disorder.

[Chemisse]

152. The email (non)scandal hurt her badly.

The media could talk of nothing else for so long.

She should have been able to beat any of the clowns they put up against her. But I think it would've been tight if one of the more stable candidates had won.

It doesn't matter now. Even if Trump dropped out tomorrow, the replacement would not have time to pull the party back together and pull off a win. Frankly, it will take years to repair the GOP.

[Demsrule86]

169. I don't think so. The email was rightie bullshit.

And for those on the left who don't like her an excuse...those who were voting for her were not affected and that was more than anyone else including Trump.

[Chemisse]

171. Yes it was indeed right-wing bullshit - from start to finish (if that ever happens).

And you're right about how it didn't change things on the right and the left.

But is the chunk of voters who hang in the middle of the spectrum who became disenchanted with Hillary, driving up her 'untrustworthy' numbers - and they are the ones who will decide the election. It looks like they are swinging heavily for Clinton now, but they may not have done so if they'd had a Republican candidate who was more competitive.

[Demsrule86]

202. Not really she is doing well

What hurt her is Comey dragging it out and lying in the end...but now that it is over, she is fine. As in all the Clinton non-scandals ...this was all right wing bullshit.

[randr]

153. I think the media has it in for Trump except of course for faux

Instead of Trump commanding the air time they would be all about the anti Hillary BS.

[Demsrule86]

200. You don't think perhaps that Trump's screwy comments is why he is in the news?

I don't think the media has it in for the Trump monster. In fact, he gets away with way more than most candidates would. And as many Hillary supporters have said forever, this stuff is baked in. It influences those who would never vote for her anyway. Here is the thing....no matter who the Democrat is they have a head start with Demographics and the electoral map. The GOP has a way more narrow path. That being said, Hillary is probably the perfect candidate to reach disaffected GOP voters and increase a victory to perhaps landslide territory...Clinton Republicans...like the old Reagan Democrats...haha. A more obviously liberal candidate would have a difficult time accomplishing this...I say "obviously" because I have admired and followed Clinton for years although I was an Obama supporter in 08, and she is much more progressive / liberal than many here think.

[randr]

208. You are right and he keeps upping the ante to guarantee coverage

[Brother Buzz]

155. The men behind the curtain would acknowledge...

Jeb Bush and Clinton are in a horse race down to the wire. That is, until they released their nasty October.

Funny, all the men behind the curtain are navel gazing, trying to figure how their boy got bamboozled.

[Uben]

159. Exactly the same!

Trump is obviously the best they have! The people have spoken.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

170. She would crush them.

There is no stopping her on the right.

Nobody touches her. Kasich could maybe get within 7 points. That's it.

[mvd]

174. With Kasich, he may have started ahead

Hillary might be ahead now after our convention. Plenty of ammunition for Hillary to say Kasich isn't as moderate as he tries to come across. It would be a close race though. With Jeb, Rubio, and Cruz, Hillary would be leading comfortably but not by double digits.

[Curtland1015]

186. It would definitely be closer. I don't know how anyone could think otherwise.

I'm not saying Hillary Clinton wouldn't still be winning against Rubio or Jeb or whoever, but Trump is a HISTORICALLY terrible candidate. He's definitely helping us.

[Demsrule86]

198. Because we like Hillary and think she is a good candidate...those

that espouse the 'she is only winning because of Trump' do not share our opinion concerning our nominee...it is a primary thing...folks the primary is over.

[Curtland1015]

201. I like Hillary too. It's the reason I'll be voting for her. That said...

...if the pizza topping options are pepperoni or sausage, the votes for which topping you want are going to be closer than if they were pepperoni or cat turds.

[sofa king]

193. 47% Republican minus those whose lives improved...

Honestly, I think that when voters are left to their own "consciences" in the voting booth, Trump will jump up to 45% on election day. Replacing him tomorrow would probably only buy Republicans another one or two percent.

[alcibiades_mystery]

194. On the day Hillary is sworn in, we'll STILL have Sanders people here saying

"I still will have been right that she was unelectable, if conditions X, Y, and Z had obtained, which they should have!"

Truly ridiculous the mental gymnastics people do to avoid accepting being dead fucking wrong.

[Exilednight]

195. I have 2 answers.

1. If someone other than Trump won the primary, she would be losing.

2. If they dumped Trump and replaced its a bit more convoluted. It would depend on who they replaced him with and when they did it.

[Demsrule86]

197. This back again I see.

Yes,she would beat any of their candidates who are all extremely flawed. So no she is not winning 'just' because Trump is a bad candidate.
'

[oberliner]

199. Why respond again?

You already made this point upthread last week when this question was posed.

[Demsrule86]

206. Yes, my comment was reasonable too.

However, I respond again because Kasich is not a moderate and is a terrible person (I live in Ohio) and I hate to see you all fall for the bullshit; he is a bad guy and would not win a general...and I must make the point that Hillary is winning and would win regardless of who the candidate is because she is a great nominee...now my turn, what purpose does this OP serve exactly? How is it helpful in electing a Democrat to the White House?

[bigwillq]

203. Probably closer

Since the R party would likely be more behind the nominee than they are now.