Seriously this is getting dumb: election fraud

[Kurska]

If they could have stolen 2016, why didn't they do it in 08 or 12?

I heard the same stuff in 2004, election was obviously stolen etc... then we won in 08 and no one from our side was talking bout it, but the other side was howling, then they howled in 2012 that it was rigged. Now we lost so it is our turn.

Sadly, it seems to be what some people truly want to believe. They would rather we have a completely counterfeit election system that takes 8 years off being rigged for shits and giggles, than accept that we lost.

At this point, we might as well just rename this forum to creative speculation and give up any hope of learning anything from our mistakes. It is absurd.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

1. Couldn't agree more

All this does is keep us from doing the necessary deep dive to get to where we need to be in order to win in 2018 and 2020.

[onecaliberal]

18. There isn't going to be a deep dive. They're putting another corporate dem in charge

of the minority. And you can alert on this comment all day long, it's not going to change the fact that IS why we continue to lose!

[bullimiami]

2. There would be a lot less speculation if we had a properly secure and transparent voting system.

[red dog 1]

29. plus 1

[Grey Lemercier]

45. 50 states, plus DC, 51 different systems, all legal per the constitution, and the Rethugs

have just won the grand lotto prize.........top to bottom control of all levels of federal and state power, including SCOTUS, so ain't a goddamn thing gonna change any of it.

Democrats, are by our nature, are not ruthless fuckers at heart, Rethugs are, so we just get our asses kicked over the long term, now that the rethugs have went full stop dark arts, starting in the 1980's.

[libtodeath]

3. Too many weird things to keep our heads in the sand over n/t

[Kurska]

4. No, you're seeing what you want to see.

If the other side had lost they would be seeing the same thing. They'd be getting peddled the same flimsy evidence from their blogs and partisan new sources.

Personally, I think it is real bad for democracy that there is a major portion of both sides that will declare any election they lose fraudulent.

[libtodeath]

5. Or you just dont want to see what is there in plain view.

[Kurska]

7. Okay man okay

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[libtodeath]

10. Did you think you could post a thread telling all of us we are stupid

for seeing what is obvious and we all should just say oh okay?

[Blanks]

24. It had to be close in order for them to steal it...

In 2000.

This time there are too many coincidences. Large swaths of 'no vote' for president. States where Clinton was favored to win by more than a few points and she lost by 1 percent. Defying the exit polls.

There is a lot at stake here too. The recruitment for ISIS has been given a huge boost by Trump's anti-Muslim stance. We don't know anything about how much Trump has been financed by the Russians. Obviously, the Russians are going to support the candidate that weakens the US presence in the world.

The conservatives wanted Obama to win in 2008 because they figured it'd be easy to take over in 2012.

I see your point, but the suspicious results should be looked into by someone.

[red dog 1]

35. plus 1

"Still Time For an Election Audit"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028290706#top

[pandr32]

9. Not to mention Russia had nothing to gain in 2008 or 2012

[libtodeath]

12. Or the repukes desperation when tony died and the SCOTUS was going to be returned to neutral.

[Kurska]

14. Oh come on

This is what I'm talking about. You sound like a cold warrior at this point.

The ruskies didn't hack our election, we lost because we ran a crap campaign.

[BlueInPhilly]

53. I beg to disagree

The results are all statistically and mathematically suspect. Voter intimidation was the norm. Unconstitutional gerrymandering ruled. Too many foreign and 3rd party players involved.

This was not a clean election, the wrong guy won under false pretenses. This was not a valid election by any means.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

55. Gerrymandering has no impact on a Presidential election n/t

[Sunlei]

6. what bothers me are huge-chunks of blank ballots in places like detroit 90,000 blank ballots.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

17. It was 87,000 for the state of Michigan

not just for Detroit.

And in race where neither candidate was especially well liked, I'm not all that surprised.

[yodermon]

8. The attack on voting rights, the purging of the voter rolls, crosscheck etc

those are not "dumb". Those things need to be confronted, and loudly.

Acknowledging these things while also recognizing what the Democrats did wrong in the campaign are not mutually exclusive exercises.

[Kurska]

13. Saying the repubs supressed the vote is way different than saying

that they engaged in actual voting count fraud.

I'm not talking about that, things like voter IDs and questionable removal of voters from rolls is a reality.

And we should fight those, but in the end we lost areas we narrowly won 4 years ago by 20 odd points and screaming fraud ain't gonna help. I live in one of those areas and trust me, it wasn't vote count shenanigans that did us in. It was the fact that for every one hillary sign there were 20 trump ones and the trump voters were marching to the polls, while our guys barely showed up.

Again, Obama won this area and when I went to vote it was basically a trump bloc party.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

20. I agree those things need to be confronted loudly

But acknowledging voter suppression efforts, which is widespread and well known, is far different than all of the conspiracy theories about votes being flipped, votes not being counted, etc.

[red dog 1]

36. Speaking of Crosscheck,

(From Greg Palast)

Crosscheck in action

Trump victory margin in Michigan: 13,107
Michigan Crosscheck purge list: 449,922

Trump victory margin in Arizona: 85,257
Arizona Crosscheck purge list: 270,824

Trump victory margin in North Carolina: 177,008
North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: 589,393

http://www.gregpalast.com/rolling-stone-expose-gops-secret-plan-steal-vote/

(Click on "The GOP's Secret War on Voters&quot

[yodermon]

37. THANK YOU. No kooky election-day conspiracies required. n/t

[uponit7771]

60. 1, People don't need theories when the facts are there !!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. The real problem, I think, is voter suppression.

Some people didn't vote because they didn't feel motivated to do so, but others didn't because they were prevented from doing so. That's what needs to be fixed, but the GOPers are doing more and more to make voting difficult for "certain people."

[Duckhunter935]

15. So true

No blame at all for a flawed candidate or campaign.

[Amimnoch]

19. Or for the other candidate that gave Trump most of his best talking points. nt.

[still_one]

25. I guess that is why Russ Feingold and Zypher Teachout lost also. Of course the FBI

interference, and the LIE that the media perpetuated regarding that the "email investigation was being reopened", or social media and fake news where up to 45% of the adults get their news had nothing to do with it all

but perhaps the most revealing thing is that a good number of Sanders supporters refused to vote for Hillary, but lets not talk about that.

27% voted for trump. Approximately 27% of the population believes President Obama isn't an American, and slightly less believe he is a Muslim.

This wasn't about jobs, this was about the "browning of America". Those 27% voted for a racist, sexist bigot, who was endorsed by the KKK and every white supremacist group in this country, and those who voted third party or didn't vote made that a reality.

She still won the popular vote in spite of the lies and distortions that have been thrown at her since 1993 when she introduced her healthcare plan.

[Duckhunter935]

32. Voter suppression

And unreliable Young voters don't help

[still_one]

33. fraud is form of deception

[still_one]

16. The Comey and the FBI interferred with the election, and the MSM perpetuated the BIG LIE

that the "email investigation was being reopened"

Fox's bret baier then started another BIG LIE that an "Indictment was pending against Hillary because of the Clinton Foundation". That made the rounds on google news, and every social outlet. Two days later baier "apologized, and said that there was no pending indictment", but that didn't stop fox news from continuing the BIG LIE, or the trump campaign, or the fake news.

So while there may not have been election "fraud" in the strictest sense, it was a type of fraud, propagated through misinformation and lies with the MSM as their tool.

Similar to what they did to propel us to invade Iraq based on a LIE, which resulted in the deaths of over a million people.

How many people's lives are going to be ruined because of this?

[jodymarie aimee]

21. Read or watch Greg Palast

Rs are cheating legally and illegally. We got 1.9Million signatures for Walker's recall. And we lost. It has been rumored for years Walker won all 3 of his elections by flipping votes from D to R. Remember in 2012 when Karl Rove stood open-mouthed with his white board. No, this isn't happening.That is because they rigged a hack, then Anonymous hacked their hack. I believe they did it in WI and FL and PA this year. Folks, things are as dirty as dirty can be in WI. Worked here, why not branch out?

[still_one]

26. Not to be disrespectful, but when Palast during the primaries started to spew out that in

California they throw away provisional ballots, that was a falsehood.

California counts ALL ballots, including provisional ones

I am somewhat skeptical of his analysis

[SickOfTheOnePct]

28. There were 900,000 signatures on the Walker recall petition

And ~1.16 million voted to recall him v. ~1.34 that said he should stay.

I'm sorry he wasn't recalled too, but it's not like you had more signatures than people who voted to boot him, so I'm not seeing why you think there was vote flip there.

[red dog 1]

39. plus 1

http://www.gregpalast.com/

Greg Palast replied to a DU post on Saturday:
"Still Time for an Election Audit"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028290706#top

(See reply # 18)

[yallerdawg]

23. What election had international leaks...

of stolen documents targeted at one party and one candidate?

What election had an FBI director making unprecedented comments about one candidate on an "investigation" instigated by rightwing groups - and only commenting on that one candidate, not the other?

What election had the Voting Rights Act dismantled and voter suppression tactics legalized nationally by the rightwing arm of the Supreme Court?

What election has had a candidate ask a foreign nation-state to hack his opponent, and has no concern about hacking voting systems nationally as long as he wins?

How do the polls leading up to the election and the exit polls of voters after they have voted consistently pick one candidate, but the vote counts come up with another, outside of any projected or historical norms?

Maybe 'they' are counting on us to be "dumb."

[still_one]

27. kick and rec!!!!!!!!

[OhZone]

30. Yeah, yd.

You have valid points!

[red dog 1]

40. K&R!

Great questions!

See this post from Saturday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028290706#top

[uponit7771]

57. 1

[mn9driver]

31. Agree. If hard evidence is produced, that would be different.

But I have seen nothing like that yet.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

34. Same n/t

[uponit7771]

58. Comey, Russian hacks and vote suppression laws enacted is hard enough? thx in advance...

... I want to know your opinion on why that wouldn't be enough on its face

[Control-Z]

38. Comey/FBI. Russia. n/t

[red dog 1]

42. plus 1

not to mention how well the GOP does at vote flipping these days.

[ucrdem]

41. Post-truth analysis.

That might fit your perceptions and comport with your preferences but it doesn't mean the anomalies aren't there. Let's recover the data while it's still possible to find it.

[ThoughtCriminal]

43. Russia

Bringing in nation state resources in changes the game. Russia was not interested in McCain or Kerry, but has a lot invested in getting Trump in the White House.

[closeupready]

44. Yes. Complete silliness.

Time spent here is becoming a total waste of time -

Fitzmas/Al Gore is running!/mansplain/woo ... no explanation needed.

[Botany]

46. excuse me? I saw "it" w/my own eyes and heard "it" w/my own ears in Ohio 2004

In 2008 and 2012 the margin of victory was too big for them to steal.

The data, #s, and real life examples are there if you want to see them.

Cincinnati OH 2004


Toledo OH 2004

[SickOfTheOnePct]

47. Sorry, I'm slow today

What is that graph supposed to be showing?

[Botany]

48. it shows that "they" were parking votes in the slot of a 3rd party candidate

In Toledo, OH (Lucus County) Kerry had 0 votes but a 3rd party candidate had 4,600 votes?

And in Cincinnati, OH (Hamilton County) Kerry and an unknown 3rd party had the
exact same # of votes? It is called a "man in the middle" scheme.

These are screen captures from the Ohio Sec. of State's web site.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

49. And how slick of them

to make sure that even as they were stealing the election for Bush in 2004, they still ensured that Kerry performed better in Lucas and Hamilton counties than Gore had done in 2000.

Yeah, I've worked elections, and people make mistakes both when calling in results and when typing them in.

[Fast Walker 52]

50. There are two main issue here-- fraud by vote suppresison and fraud by hacking

There's pretty clear evidence for fraud by vote suppression-- voter ID and shit like Crosscheck.

There's less clear evidence for electronic vote hacking, but there are still anomalies, and it's fair to weigh them. The BIG reason we should take it seriously is because of the known hacking by Russia in this election and their obvious bias for Trump.

Maybe you could read all the articles posted on this, and weight them carefully before dismissing them.

[uponit7771]

59. 1

[Tiggeroshii]

51. The electoral college has never worked for democrats ever since Jackson

Started the party as a protest after losing the electoral college and winning the popular vote.

Eventually we have to realize it will never work for us.

[Land Shark]

52. Elections ha email to be close to be plausibly stolen

Per the exit polls, Obama margins were narrowed substantially in the vote counts but not enough to change the result.

[Ellipsis]

54. You typically, in theory, couldn't swing an election by more then 5% max by tampering...

...but this election isn't typical.


If the election was tampered with... it''ll be known.


Pretty well fucked in areas with no paper back up.

[uponit7771]

56. THIS IS EASY !!! The margins in the past years were higher, that's not ... come on people with these

... threads like everyone else is wearing tin foil

Election fraud is easier than voter fraud