2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSuppose Bernie wins. If the Rethugs succeed in using "retroactive classification" against Hillary,
they could turn it against Bernie next. They could use it on any political enemy -- or a member of the media. Or anybody.
All they would have to do is say that he shouldn't have received a certain email in his personal or political account -- anything that they decided retroactively to classify. A matter of what had been public information. Something that could have seemed perfectly harmless at the time.
Please don't automatically jump to defend retroactive classification out of a misguided effort to support Bernie, or because of an incorrect belief that I'm questioning his integrity. I'm not.
I'm just appalled by the existence of "retroactive classification." Please think through what it means, and how it affects the Free Speech rights of all of us.
I hope all Democrats, no matter who they support for President, will realize that retroactive classification is just plain wrong.
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027086801
TDale313
(7,820 posts)I don't think it will be because of the e-mail "scandal". It will be because his message and style resonated with voters in a way hers didn't.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)can be removed from the public domain and then people can be prosecuted for still having it on their computers?
People like me, for example? And you?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)or Obama is utterly powerless before the might of the Republicans?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)when you said that retroactive classification didn't exist?
I don't think the Rethugs will win this battle, though it appears you would like them to.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Problem with this latest theory of yours is the people saying the emails were classified work for Obama. In fact, Obama is the final arbiter on what is and what is not classified - Congress punted the job over to the Executive branch in 1947.
So either Obama is in on the campaign to destroy Clinton, or Obama is utterly powerless despite his position.
Which one would you like to use to keep your story coherent? Or is that not important?
Good thing I never claimed it didn't exist!
Apparently, I'll keep having to remind you that retroactively applying classification markings is not the same as retroactively classifying information.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)who are claiming that there is something nefarious in Hillary's actions, and who claim this is demonstrated by the fact that the current FOIA process, carried out by the Obama administration, is producing some redactions.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)The justice department won't be going after Hillary. But Obama can't stop the Rethugs from slinging lies, and people like you from helping.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Hence, your claim he is powerless.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)But he has the integrity that they lack.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)or go after them for interfering with a government investigation.
But that would require something other than snark from you. So you're going with powerless.
HappyPlace
(568 posts)OMG who knew?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)is have some email on his own computer that contains information that wasn't classified when he received it, but is now deemed classified.
frylock
(34,825 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)according to this Stanford Law School fellow's published article.
"Retroactively Classified Documents, the First Amendment, and the Power to Make Secrets Out of the Public Record"
http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=9475&context=penn_law_review
by Jonathan Abel, Fellow, Constitutional Law Center, Stanford University
INTRODUCTION
Now you see it. Now you dont.
This is not a magicians incantation. It is a description of retroactive classification, a little-known provision of U.S. national security law that allows the government to declassify a document, release it to the public, and then declare it classified later on. Retroactive classification means the government could hand you a document today and prosecute you tomorrow for not giving it back. Retroactive classification can even reach documents that are available in public libraries, on the Internet, or elsewhere in the public domain.
The executive branch has used retroactive classification to startling effect. The Department of Justice, for example, declassified and released a report on National Security Agency (NSA) wiretapping only to declare, years later, that the report was once again classified. The journalist who had received the report was threatened with prosecution if he did not return it. Retroactive classification has also targeted government documents revealing corruption in Iraq, violence in Afghanistan, and mismanagement of the national missile defense program. In each of these cases, the government released a document in an unclassified form through official channelsnot through a leakand then turned around to classify it.
This practice would be troubling enough if it actually removed the document from the public domain. But in the Internet Age, once a document is released to the public, it is often impossible for the government to retrieve it. While retroactive classification does not remove the document from the public domain, where our enemies can access it, retroactive classification does remove the document from the public discourse, prohibiting members of Congress, government auditors, and law-abiding members of the public from openly discussing it.
In the ongoing debate about the balance between secrecy and transparency in government affairs, retroactive classification tests the limits of the governments ability to control information in the public domain. The questions raised by retroactive classification go far beyond those raised by the WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden disclosures. In those cases, the information remained classified even though it was widely available in the public domain. A similar situation occurs with retroactive classification when information in the public domain becomes classified. The difference is that in retroactive classification, the government initially released this information in a non-classified form and only later decided to classify it. This difference makes retroactive classification much more complicated from a legal standpoint because it involves the governments going back on its initial classification decision. Retroactive classification thus forces us to ask what limits, if any, exist on the governments authority to control information. Can the government reach into the public domain to make a secret out of something it has already disclosed? Are we obligated to go along with retroactive classification decisions? What are the implications beyond national security law? This Article takes up these pressing questions.
SNIP
___________________
And there's also this from Media Matters:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/08/12/myths-and-facts-on-hillary-clintons-email-and-r/204913
Media are exploiting news that two emails Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton turned over to the State Department from her time as secretary of state may be retroactively classified as "top secret" to push myths about Clinton's handling of government information and scandalize her email use. Here are the facts.
FACT: None Of The Emails Sent To Clinton Were Labeled As "Classified" Or "Top Secret"
FACT: Emails Originated In State Dept. System, And Questions About Retroactive Classification Would Have Occurred Regardless Of Clinton's Server Use
FACT: Experts Have Debunked Any Comparison Between Clinton's Email Use And David Petraeus' Crimes
FACT: IG Referral To Justice Department Was Not Criminal, And FBI Isn't Targeting Clinton Herself
Intelligence Community IG Says Two Emails From Clinton's Server Should Be Marked "Top Secret"
Intelligence Community Inspector General Says Two Emails From Clinton's Server Contain "Top Secret" Information. The inspector general for the Intelligence Community (ICIG), I. Charles McCullough, reportedly informed leaders of key congressional oversight committees that two classified emails previously discovered on Clinton's server contain top secret information. As McClatchy reported:
The inspector general for the Intelligence Community notified senior members of Congress that two of four classified emails discovered on the server Clinton maintained at her New York home contained material deemed to be in one of the highest security classifications - more sensitive than previously known.
The notice came as the State Department inspector general's office acknowledged that it is reviewing the use of "personal communications hardware and software" by Clinton's former top aides after requests from Congress.
State Department: It Remains Unclear Whether Material In Two Emails Should Be Retroactively Classified. NBC noted that the State Department is still working with the intelligence community to determine whether the information in the two emails should in fact be labeled as classified:
SNIP
frylock
(34,825 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)With retroactive classification, it could happen to anyone regardless of what kind of email they had.
That's also clear if you just read the Stanford Fellow's article, as long and daunting as that appears.
And there's also this from Media Matters:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/08/12/myths-and-facts-on-hillary-clintons-email-and-r/204913
Media are exploiting news that two emails Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton turned over to the State Department from her time as secretary of state may be retroactively classified as "top secret" to push myths about Clinton's handling of government information and scandalize her email use. Here are the facts.
FACT: None Of The Emails Sent To Clinton Were Labeled As "Classified" Or "Top Secret"
FACT: Emails Originated In State Dept. System, And Questions About Retroactive Classification Would Have Occurred Regardless Of Clinton's Server Use
FACT: Experts Have Debunked Any Comparison Between Clinton's Email Use And David Petraeus' Crimes
FACT: IG Referral To Justice Department Was Not Criminal, And FBI Isn't Targeting Clinton Herself
Intelligence Community IG Says Two Emails From Clinton's Server Should Be Marked "Top Secret"
Intelligence Community Inspector General Says Two Emails From Clinton's Server Contain "Top Secret" Information. The inspector general for the Intelligence Community (ICIG), I. Charles McCullough, reportedly informed leaders of key congressional oversight committees that two classified emails previously discovered on Clinton's server contain top secret information. As McClatchy reported:
The inspector general for the Intelligence Community notified senior members of Congress that two of four classified emails discovered on the server Clinton maintained at her New York home contained material deemed to be in one of the highest security classifications - more sensitive than previously known.
The notice came as the State Department inspector general's office acknowledged that it is reviewing the use of "personal communications hardware and software" by Clinton's former top aides after requests from Congress.
State Department: It Remains Unclear Whether Material In Two Emails Should Be Retroactively Classified. NBC noted that the State Department is still working with the intelligence community to determine whether the information in the two emails should in fact be labeled as classified:
SNIP
frylock
(34,825 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)He switched gears and pretended he'd never said there wasn't retroactive classification.
frylock
(34,825 posts)jeff47 has proven his chops. What credentials do you hold in IT Security?
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)If Pres. Obama can survive
Rev. Wright
Bill Ayers
Tony Razko (cough cough HRC)
Alleged whitey tape of Michelle Obama
Britherism
Secret Muslim
than HRC can survive a little bump
If she's not the nominee its not because of an "email scandal "its because voters wanted something different
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The Obama Administration has gone MILES to shut out daylight from what the gov't does. This isn't a new thing, or just invented for Hillary so she'll fail at getting the nomination.
This is a trend that a lot of us tried to shut down for DECADES now. HRC supports the policies that are doing this to her now.
If she gets consumed by the Monster she helped nurture for most of her career, then that's no better vote against her platform and her political legacy.
artislife
(9,497 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)The danger of retroactive classification isn't related to HRC using a personal server -- it could happen to anyone using any kind of email. Or just having paper, or an old book in the house.
If people in power decided to use "retroactive classification" as an attack weapon, they could -- with a very chilling effect on freedom of speech and freedom of the press.
"Retroactively Classified Documents, the First Amendment, and the Power to Make Secrets Out of the Public Record"
http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=9475&context=penn_law_review
by Jonathan Abel, Fellow, Constitutional Law Center, Stanford University
INTRODUCTION
Now you see it. Now you dont.
This is not a magicians incantation. It is a description of retroactive classification, a little-known provision of U.S. national security law that allows the government to declassify a document, release it to the public, and then declare it classified later on. Retroactive classification means the government could hand you a document today and prosecute you tomorrow for not giving it back. Retroactive classification can even reach documents that are available in public libraries, on the Internet, or elsewhere in the public domain.
The executive branch has used retroactive classification to startling effect. The Department of Justice, for example, declassified and released a report on National Security Agency (NSA) wiretapping only to declare, years later, that the report was once again classified. The journalist who had received the report was threatened with prosecution if he did not return it. Retroactive classification has also targeted government documents revealing corruption in Iraq, violence in Afghanistan, and mismanagement of the national missile defense program. In each of these cases, the government released a document in an unclassified form through official channelsnot through a leakand then turned around to classify it.
This practice would be troubling enough if it actually removed the document from the public domain. But in the Internet Age, once a document is released to the public, it is often impossible for the government to retrieve it. While retroactive classification does not remove the document from the public domain, where our enemies can access it, retroactive classification does remove the document from the public discourse, prohibiting members of Congress, government auditors, and law-abiding members of the public from openly discussing it.
In the ongoing debate about the balance between secrecy and transparency in government affairs, retroactive classification tests the limits of the governments ability to control information in the public domain. The questions raised by retroactive classification go far beyond those raised by the WikiLeaks and Edward Snowden disclosures. In those cases, the information remained classified even though it was widely available in the public domain. A similar situation occurs with retroactive classification when information in the public domain becomes classified. The difference is that in retroactive classification, the government initially released this information in a non-classified form and only later decided to classify it. This difference makes retroactive classification much more complicated from a legal standpoint because it involves the governments going back on its initial classification decision. Retroactive classification thus forces us to ask what limits, if any, exist on the governments authority to control information. Can the government reach into the public domain to make a secret out of something it has already disclosed? Are we obligated to go along with retroactive classification decisions? What are the implications beyond national security law? This Article takes up these pressing questions.
SNIP
___________________
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...right?
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Vinca
(50,273 posts)If something was classified and passed through her personal email, that's another matter, but anything "after the fact" wouldn't hold up in the court of law or public opinion. Her biggest worry should be whether or not any of her staffers removed evidence of anything being classified. Staffers for politicians have done a whole lot worse than that to protect their boss. Think of "Bridge-gate," for example. Those bozos are facing prison time for protecting Chris Christie.
jeepers
(314 posts)maybe we should make it a requirement that gov't employees in sensitive positions communicate on secure gov.t sanctioned servers only. Might avoid this problem in the future. Seems simple enough.
Vinca
(50,273 posts)I don't think anything is secure anymore. The IRS is sending notices to a whole lot of taxpayers that their information is in the hands of the hackers.