Bernie Sanders Problem: He Will Give Us The Bad Parts Of Sweden's Economy (opposition research)

[big_dog]

We’re hearing a lot at the moment about how Bernie Sanders is a democratic socialist. This means something a little different in my part of the world, something akin to the Soviet economic and political system but I’m aware that in American parlance it means what we Europeans would call social democracy. The high tax and high government services system of places like Sweden and the other Nordics. However, before advocating it for a place like the US those advocates of that sort of policy really do need to understand what it is that makes the system tick. And it’s really not the sort of policies that are being put forward.

The heart of the Democratic Party is now with Bernie Sanders, whatever the polls show. And let’s not have anyone accuse me of McCarthyism, he calls himself a “socialist.” When asked, the head of the Democratic Party couldn’t think of a single difference between socialists and Democrats. And please don’t insult my intelligence by talking about Sweden. Sweden is not a socialist country. Venezuela is socialist. When Sanders starts advocating free trade and investment, liberal immigration, privatization, zero inheritance tax, 100% nationwide school vouchers, then come back to me with your Sweden talk. For now, he just wants the bad parts of Sweden.

For the truth is that the Nordics are incredibly neoliberal societies as a whole. Once you get past the tax rates they’re very much more free market than the US or even my native UK for example. There’s two parts to this, the first being that those who would have Scandinavian social democracy in the US need to know how it works. The tax system is a great deal more regressive than it is in the US for example. This is because a very large part of revenue is raised from the VAT rather than income taxes. The reason for this is that there just aren’t enough rich people and they don’t have enough money collectively to pay for a large state. So, to fund what people seem to be proposing the US will need to do the same. Maybe it’s a good deal that everyone’s taxes go up to fund single payer health care, free tertiary education and all that. But that is what has to be done. You simply cannot squeeze enough revenue out of the rich to pay for it all: everyone has to pay. The second point about the tax systems is that they are very much more local than the US one. Denmark’s national income tax rate is 3.76% (yes, 3.76, not 37.6) and tops out at 15%. The big tax rates are not at the national level: they’re at the communal level. Both the revenue raising and the spending are done at this very low level. You simply won’t get the same willingness to cough up the money if 320 million people are sending 40% of everything they make through Washington DC.

So, I would argue that to make the US more like those desirable Nordic social democracies the US needs to become both more free market and also much more local in its taxation and spending. As those Nordic social democracies are. And I would also make one more point: such a system reduces inequality but it doesn’t actually make the poor any richer. That’s from the “State of Working America” report from 2004. How you read this is of course entirely up to you. If you regard inequality as the great evil then this will bolster your desire for that icy social democracy. If you’re a utilitarian, like me, then you’ll want to look at the greatest good of the greatest number. And either system produces the same living standards for the poor but the less statist Anglo Saxon systems allow the richer parts of society to have more. That is, the poor are just as poor but the total wealth, income or consumption of the society is higher under the Anglo Saxon rather than social democratic system. That is, according to utilitarian lights, the Anglo Saxon system is better. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/30/the-bernie-sanders-problem-is-that-he-just-wants-the-bad-parts-of-sweden/

[cantbeserious]

1. Bernie Sanders Hit Piece From The 1% - What More Would One Expect From The Desperate Class

eom

[big_dog]

2. seems to me Sanders would make a great govt. oversight/accountablity cabinet member

in a Biden Warren administration

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. Your OP quotes someone from a racist right wing party

Good Job...............

[cantbeserious]

3. Seems To Me That Biden Would Be More Of The Same - Just Like HRC

eom

[big_dog]

5. you mean like keeping the drone program?

more of the same definitely

[cantbeserious]

8. More Of The Same DLC Third Way Triangulation And Support Of The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks

eom

[big_dog]

11. and how did that work for us in the late 1990's?

greatest economic expansion in history, balanced budgets, paying off the national debt, peace around the globe, 3 democratic presidential victories in a row (popular vote) etc.

[cantbeserious]

12. Repeal Of Glass Steagel - How Did That Work For Us In The 2000s?

eom

[cali]

17. much of what Clinton.sowed in the nineties came back to screw

us in the oughts, from welfare reform to criminal justice to the repeal of financial regulations.

[big_dog]

18. yes like the passage of the Americans with Disabilites Act

peace in the middle east, low gas prices, full employment etc.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. It would be nice if you got your history right..... Clinton had nothing to do with that

when making bogus claims.



Introduced in the Senate as S.933 by Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) on May 9, 1988
Passed the Senate on September 7, 1989 (76-8)

Passed the House of Representatives on May 22, 1990 (unanimous voice vote)

Reported by the joint conference committee on July 12, 1990; agreed to by the House of Representatives on July 12, 1990 (377–28) and by the Senate on July 13, 1990 (91-6)

Signed into law by President George H. W. Bush on July 26, 1990

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990

[Armstead]

4. Oh, Forbes....Nah

I am sure any moves towards "socialism" that Sanders might might make, would have to be tailord to be acceptable to the US population and mentality.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. Worstal, the authorl is a supporter of the right win racist UK Independence Party...

Worstall is a supporter of the UK Independence Party (UKIP),[11] stood as a candidate for London in the European Parliament election, 2009,[11][12] and acted as the party's press office


Tim Worstall, British attack dog

There’s an attack-dog commentator called Tim Worstall who writes columns for Forbes, the Adam Smith Institute, and a few others. He is a commodity trader and a former press officer for Britain’s extreme right wing anti-immigration UK Independence Party (UKIP).

I’m going to say three things about him. 1. He’s poisonous, and an attention-seeker. 2. His rants against anyone he brands left-wing are, generally, clever-sounding rubbish. 3. there are some odd questions about him that need answering....


......... and read the rest if you still want to hold this man as someone you want to quote.


https://eziwrestler.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/tim-worstall-curious-british-attack-dog/


He's a member of a party even more right wing than the tories.........

[Major Nikon]

9. Results...

On Sun Aug 30, 2015, 05:21 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The Bernie Sanders Problem: He Just Wants to Give Us The Bad Parts Of Sweden's Economy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251559589

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Author of the article is a member of a racist right wing party. See info in post 6.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 30, 2015, 05:30 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: nothing wrong with linking a right winger's article that i can see. opposition research is valid
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I checked out the links. The alerter appears to be correct. Alone, this piece sounds like one person's opinion. Check out the links and you find a little more.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[big_dog]

10. at least juror #1 got it right

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Not a big fan of Forbes or the writer.

I have nothing against rich folks as long as they are playing by the same rules as the rest of us... I do not think it is beyond our ability to essentially eliminate want with the system we have now.

[Ron Green]

14. What is this "He will give us" crap?

I don't want him to GIVE US anything. I want him, as President, to use the political revolution (because that's exactly what it will have taken to elect him) to start to build a human-based society that values important and sustaining institutions rather than exploitative ones.
Your "Forbes" article, by the way, is so 20th-Century.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. DO YOU WANT TO WEAR WOODEN SHOES? I DONT WANT TO WEAR WOODEN SHOES!!!!

...sounds like Sanders is making some people at forbes nervous. Good.

[Starry Messenger]

16. This article is a hot mess.

That's the problem with viewing economic systems as an a la carte menu you can just order certain features off of, if you elect the right guy to be the chef.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Nice dodge editing the title of your op.

Except that you also posted a Fox news article about Bernie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251559995

Thankfully a Hillary supporter called you out on it and you deleted.

I guess that's the difference between being pro-Hillary and anti-Bernie.