Has Bernie Sanders ever explained why he is no longer a Conscientious Objector?

[Freddie Stubbs]

Apparently Senator Sanders applied for Conscientious Objector during the Vietnam War.

https://gma.yahoo.com/bernie-sanders-applied-conscientious-objector-status-during-vietnam-184148698.html

His campaign stated that he was a pacifist at the time, but no longer is.

It would be interesting to hear him explain why had changed his mind on this (assume he actually was a Conscientious Objector in the first place).

[Uncle Joe]

1. Is Bernie forcing people that are Conscientious Objectors to fight in a war?

Are all the wars the same?

Thanks for the thread, Freddie Stubbs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Are all the wars the same?

Are all the wars the same?

That's the rub, to be awarded Conscientious Objector status a person must be opposed to all war.

[Uncle Joe]

11. And Bernie stated he was against the Vietnam War as tens of thousands of other Americans did.

The Vietnam War was no different than the war with Iraq, it was all based on lies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I have no problem with his opposition to the Viet Nam War.

I am just stating that to be awarded Conscientious Objector status one must be opposed to all war.

[Uncle Joe]

13. And Bernie wasn't awarded Conscientious Objector Status so the OP is false. Bernie's history

has been to oppose wars based on lies, his objection to Vietnam and his vote against waging war in Iraq are thus consistent.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. His campaign staff said that he used to be a pacifist, but no longer is.

[Uncle Joe]

21. Apparently from your statement it didn't come from Bernie just someone on his staff but nonetheless

do you have a link to this statement?

[Freddie Stubbs]

23. Yep:

"As a college student in the 1960s he was a pacifist," Michael Briggs, campaign spokesman added in an email. "[He] isn't now."

https://gma.yahoo.com/bernie-sanders-applied-conscientious-objector-status-during-vietnam-184148698.html

[Uncle Joe]

28. Apparently Michael Briggs became confused about the word "pacifist" I've learned that some people

can also become confused about the word "volunteer."

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Briggs not a volunteer. He is getting a paycheck from the Sanders campaign:

As Sanders’ communications director, he draws a salary from the presidential campaign. At the same time, he’s collecting his paycheck from the U.S. Senate, as the senator’s communications chief since 2007.


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/michael-biggs-bernie-sanders-spokesman-120580

[Uncle Joe]

32. I never said he was. n/t

[Cheese Sandwich]

49. Maybe that's why his application for conscientious objector status was denied

source:
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/09/02/sanders-bid-to-be-a-conscientious-objector-draws-attention

[Bluenorthwest]

91. And yet your own avatar, Mohammad Ali, declared CO status based on not opposition to all wars but

to 'Christian wars' not called by Allah. His CO status was denied but the SCOTUS reversed his conviction. So your absolute verbiage about CO status does not even work well enough to get through a conversation about Ali.
In reality, the US law says 'must oppose all wars' but that has been unenforceable. Additionally, international law is very different and has reason behind it. Nuremberg protocols say one is not absolved of a war crime because one was ordered to commit that crime. Obviously that means that individual ethics are required of each fighting person even on the field of battle they are required to object to that which is wrong. So you can be fighting a war and right in the middle of it you can and must object to an order that is being called 'war'.
If I can be convicted for following an order, obviously I have the right to refuse that order. If I have that right, then it becomes very hard to say 'if you will do any war you would do all war'. If you can refuse the orders to murder women and kids, while taking the orders to kill armed enemies then you can refuse to fight one war but not the other.

It's just not settled law, and anyone with Ali as calling card should know some of this at least. My father did not care for boxing but he admired Ali greatly for being a CO. My father had volunteered for WW2 but said he also would have refused Vietnam.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

92. I have read over two dozen books on him and watched nearly every movie or documentary made about ...

I have read over two dozen books on Muhammad Ali , met and spoken with many of his associates, and watched nearly every movie or documentary ever made about him. He paid dearly for his opposition to the Viet Nam War. He faced a five year prison sentence, was stripped of his heavyweight title and denied a boxing license to practice his trade. He was prohibited from boxing for three and one half years , 1967-1970, which covered the time from when he was 27 years old to 30 years old, which was his athletic prime. Public opinion began to shift and he was granted a license to box again in 1970. In his return from exile he TKOed Jerry Quarry in Atlanta, Georgia in 1970. His next victim was Oscar Bonavena who he knocked out in the fifteenth round. In 1971 he suffered the first loss of his career against Joe Frazier in the Fight Of the Century via a unanimous decision. In 1974, as a 3-1 underdog he knocked out the previously indomitable George Foreman in the eighth round and regained the championship that was unrightfully taken away. A photo of the knock out is the first photo in my Ali internet shrine. The rest is history.

He is the GOAT!!!

He opposed all wars not declared by his god, Allah. That is a little different than opposing 'Christian wars' . There are more than two religions in the world; Islam and Christianity. In fact they aren't even the only two monotheistic religions. He applied for Conscientious Objector status in 1967 and his application was denied. He was sentenced to five years in prison which he appealed and was out on bail. He couldn't fight in the U S because no state would give him a license and he couldn't fight abroad because his license was revoked. The authorities wouldn't even let him cross the border for one afternoon to fight in Canada. That sentence was reversed by the Supreme Court in 1971.

Again , in order to be granted conscientious objector status a person must oppose all war and his opposition must be based on a religious belief and it must be sincere. Here is the actual text from 'Cassius Marsellus CLAY, Jr. also known as Muhammad Ali, Petitioner, v. UNITED STATES':


In order to qualify for classification as a conscientious objector, a registrant must satisfy three basic tests. He must show that he is conscientiously opposed to war in any form.Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437, 91 S.Ct. 828, 28 L.Ed.2d 168. He must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief, as the term has been construed in our decisions. United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 85 S.Ct. 850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733; Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333, 90 S.Ct. 1792, 26 L.Ed.2d 308. And he must show that this objection is sincere. Witmer v. United States, 348 U.S. 375, 75 S.Ct. 392, 99 L.Ed. 428. In applying these tests, the Selective Service System must be concerned with the registrant as an individual, not with its own interpretation of the dogma of the religious sect, if any, to which he may belong. United States v. Seeger, supra; Gillette v. United States, supra; Williams v. United States, 5 Cir., 216 F.2d 350, 352.

The unlawful command argument is a red herring .

I don't know what the gravamen of this argument is. I stand by the conscientious objector. The case law clearly states that status is only open to those that oppose all war, their opposition is based on religious precepts, and it is sincere.

[moobu2]

2. I can understand being a Conscientious Objector

especially in the Vietnam War but how is someone who signed up as a Conscientious Objector going to ask other young Americans to serve and risk their lives for the USA when they refused to?

[mythology]

10. There are two ways one could do that

There's the George Bush method of lying about National Guard service and then the case for war.

I suspect the Sanders approach would be to exhaust diplomatic options and then use military force, probably in fashions similar to Obama where U.S. forces aren't on the ground in large scale. Not being willing to serve in a particular war, or even disliking war in general, doesn't mean Sanders wouldn't be able to make the case for war in any instance.

[Armstead]

15. I suppose it's worse than signing up for the Reserves and then backing out

[restorefreedom]

48. he objected specifically to the vietnam war

which is why he was denied co status.

he was opposed to the iraq war as it was a war of choice and not to defend a threatened country.

he has never said in recent years he is opposed to all war in every circumstance, the op is misleading

but a cic who does not have an itchy trigger finger is a good thing in my view.

[Vattel]

56. Because he would also ask them not to serve in an immoral war.

[jfern]

86. George Bush and Bill Clinton both were dishonest to

get out of 'Nam.

[catnhatnh]

3. Let's use the s facts...

He applied for CO status during Vietnam.

He was denied when he admitted he was opposed to Vietnam and not all wars.

He was never recognized as a CO.

He has voted against many use of force recommendations.

He voted for military action in Afghanistan after 9/11.

Your post is incorrect-he has nothing to apologize for.

[enough]

14. Thanks for laying this out clearly. (nt)

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. I'm not asking for an apology. I just would like to know why he is no longer a pacifist

[cascadiance]

41. Why is Hillary no longer a Republican?...

There are so many more issues perhaps less fundamental than that where she hasn't been consistent over time on, and with less explanation.

And like others have said, he's been consistent being against wars based on lies like Vietnam and Iraq were, and supported those when he felt that there was reasons to do so, when all other avenues of trying to resolve big global issues have been exhausted. They in effect are saying that even then he wasn't a "pacifist", and that just because he objected to the Vietnam war doesn't necessarily make him a pacifist.

O'Malley was too young to be faced with this question. Hillary wasn't the right gender to be faced with this question. Trump had four college deferments and a controversial medical release to let him off the hook. Hillary has been more prone to vote for wars that we should get involved with than Sanders has in office too, even those that were questionable and later determined to be based on lies like Iraq.

I respect more people who come out and state their beliefs of not feeling that the Vietnam war was the right war to fight as a conscientious objector (even if it didn't fit the literal legal definition of such at that time). You can't blame him for trying to "object" to a war that he didn't believe in then and not wishing to fight in it.

[restorefreedom]

51. he never was a "pacifist"

he has opposed specific wars for specific reasons

this is going to be another right wing attempt to portray him as weak.

and it will not succeed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Perhaps he was a CO to the war in Vietnam.

A whole helluva lot of people were. Including me.

[moobu2]

26. Yes but claiming Conscientious Objector status is a hole nother ballgame.

Becasue Bernie Sanders is running to POTUS other pacifists aren't.

Bernie Sanders said he couldn't serve his country when called upon because he was a total pacifist, but now he says he's not a pacifist at all and could send other people's children into a conflict that he wouldn't go to himself.

This needs to be fully vetted since it will be a big issue if he's the nominee. Democrats need to see if he can explain it without looking like a hypocritical coward.

[arcane1]

36. He was denied that status because his objections were admittedly specific to that war

No matter how hard people try to be deliberately obtuse about it, there is still no controversy there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. So what? A lot of people were COs to the Vietnam slaughter.

As a draft counselor during the war I advised more than a few people to seek CO status. Did they succeed? I don't know. I also mentioned Canada as an option. Did they end up in Toronto? I don't know.

As a pacifist, (I wasn't then), I would advise anyone who objected to a war to find a way out.

[moobu2]

44. So you think you could be a pacifist AND Commander in Chief?

Anyway, Bernie said he was a conscientious objector when he was called on to serve. He said he was a pacifist. Now though he says he's no longer a pacifist. He needs to explain that change of heart a little bit more.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Why not?

[ieoeja]

59. You must have lot of people on ignore as this had already been explained in a dozen or more posts.

He asked for CO status because he objected to Vietnam, not because he was a pacifist. He was denied CO status because CO status is only for pacifists, and he never claimed to be a pacifist.

It would be difficult for him to explain a "change of heart" when there was no change of heart.

[Doctor_J]

64. can Hillary be a war monger and a commander in chief?

Since she's loved every war since time began, how can we trust her to ever say no?

[immoderate]

5. Well, if he's like me, he was interested in staying out of the illegal Vietnam War.

I explored that option too. It was closed to atheists, though.

--imm

[Autumn]

6. Why should he? That war was long ago. But please proceed.

[catnhatnh]

7. If you are worried about someones combat status...

...perhaps you should ask Madame Secretary about coming under fire in Bosnia. Me, I rather elect a leader who is hesitant to send young people to war than one who finds it so heroic they would lie about their own experience...

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. It's his philosophy, not his military record which I am interested in

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

101. No, it's not. Because you were answered in reply #3.

He was denied when he admitted he was opposed to Vietnam and not all wars.

So his 'philosophy' was that Vietnam was a 'stupid war', much like Obama thought about Iraq.

Since you're still 'just asking' after that very early reply, it's obvious this was just a poorly veiled smear job.

Better luck with your next one.

[Motown_Johnny]

9. He applied and was denied, so he never was a CO.

Do you really have a problem with his objection to the Vietnam War?

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. I am just curious as to why he was a pacifist, but no longer is

[Motown_Johnny]

24. It seems it was a statement about that particular war.

He was not a pacifist, that is why he was never listed as CO.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. Then his campaign is lying:

"As a college student in the 1960s he was a pacifist," Michael Briggs, campaign spokesman added in an email. "[He] isn't now."

https://gma.yahoo.com/bernie-sanders-applied-conscientious-objector-status-during-vietnam-184148698.html

[Vattel]

58. He gave up pacifism because he realized that not all war is immoral.

War can be justifiable defense (though usually it isn't). I guess Sanders once held the mistaken belief that war cannot be justifiable. I am glad he saw the light.

[Freddie Stubbs]

89. Is that really why? Or are you putting words into his mouth?

[Vattel]

96. Of course I am just speculating. I don't know that he has addressed your question

in a public forum. And if he hasn't done so, then what can we do in this thread except speculate?

[Ed Suspicious]

57. You keep stating that as fact "he was a pacifist, but no longer is." He was denied CO

status because, fundamentally, he was not a pacifist. What part of this is hard to comprehend, or do you have something other than simple comprehension at heart?

[NorthCarolina]

60. Actually, I believe he is still against war

as a first resort. If that's a pacifist then so be it...seems like wise policy to me though.

[kath]

20. Thank you so much for your concern.

Will this be the meme of the day? or the week?

[arcane1]

29. It was already the meme a couple of weeks ago, but has to be resurrected for some reason

Probably because there is nothing else

[kath]

70. Someone should make a chart of the cycle time for all their different memes.

Ahhh, the smell of d-e-s-p...

[Warren Stupidity]

22. I'm pretty sure he is no longer eligible for military service.

The perfidy is strong with this talking point.

As an aside, do you understand that the vietnam war was a criminal endeavor on an even larger scale that bush's mess in Iraq?

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. This isn't about a specific conflict. It's about how a person changes such a fundamental principle

[Uncle Joe]

37. Bernie didn't change his principles, he's against wars based on lies. n/t

[arcane1]

38. It's about no such thing.

But keep digging

[HappyPlace]

79. They aren't here to get answers so much as try to shit on our progressive champion.

And the attempt is astonishingly filled with Fail.

I won't engage in this with them, but the exchanges are quite revealing!

[Warren Stupidity]

47. no it is just a pathetic right-wing oriented talking point.

I'm pretty sure Bernie is not going to get much of the chicken-hawk vote. Neither is any other Democratic candidate.

[Duckhunter935]

78. Please just tell the truth

You are for the other candidate and are just stirring up 40 year old crap. It would be so nice if you people doing this would just tell the flipping truth. You just are trying to tear down your opposing candidate. I am getting so tired of the Hillary supporters doing this .....

[GitRDun]

25. Lol I hate this topic

Bernie was just another guy attempting to find a way to not fight a war he thought was wrong.

Bernie used CO application.
Romney used religion.
Others used political connections.

It's all the same to me. I think you have to look at all these guys the same. I struggle holding it against any of them, knowing what we know now about that war. I also don't feel like it says anything about them today...it was a different time and place.

I also hold those that chose to serve in much higher regard.

Well, that's my take for what it's worth.

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. I'm not holding it against him. I'm just curious what changed his mind.

[GitRDun]

40. I think he wasn't really a CO, that's why is app failed

He was a CO to Vietnam not all war.

That's why I objectively put him in the same group as the rest who found a way not to go.

[cascadiance]

43. The term "conscientious objector" in my book doesn't literally apply ONLY to pacifists...

... even if legally in those days it was defined as such for someone to get let off the hook for being drafted for combat duty then.

The term itself just means that someone objects to something as their conscience dictates. That could apply literally to both people who religiously object to all wars because their religion has their conscience dictate that, or it could apply in many of our minds (including Bernie's) to people that feel that they objected to the Vietnam War, because the reasons we went to fight there also violate our ethical consciences as well.

I think his beliefs in the war then are consistent with what they are now, unlike Hillary who would say her beliefs now probably wouldn't have allowed her to campaign for Goldwater or be president of the Young Republicans as a freshman at Wellesly College in her younger years then. SHE has a change in her philosophy perhaps she should explain, where Bernie really in my book doesn't have anything to explain as he was consistent with his belief in war then as to what he believes now. And I WANT someone in charge that looks at starting wars as a last resort to trying to resolve disputes with other countries instead of waiting for the Pentagon and the military industrial complex to gin up reasons to rationalize a reason to go to war the way so many recent presidents have done.

[GitRDun]

71. I hope you did not take my comments as negative towards Bernie

My position is what happened back then means nothing. It should be ignored. It was an unjust war with a draft...nothing like today. To penalize anyone for not wanting to fight a war most Americans did not want doesn't seem rational to me.

As far as Hillary versus Bernie, I see Bernie as more dove-ish than Obama, Hillary more hawkish. I've been in threads where they've dissected Hillary's statements when voting for Iraq. One can easily see how people may feel she politicized the decision versus sincerely thinking the "go" vote would help with the UN. Based on your view of wars, Bernie is definitely your guy.

I agree with you on the thought of consistency with Bernie. He would not have "authorized" Viet Nam back then based on his actions at the time, just as he did not authorize Iraq. I can't see anywhere that someone would find that inconsistent.

[cascadiance]

80. I'm with you on most of what you say here...

I think Bernie is probably more "dove-ish" than Obama, but I think most sane people on the street would rather us all be "dove-ish" with each other than trying to start fights or even respond in minor disagreements with physical fighting of each other too.

That is why I'd rather have a "dove-ish" president, but one that still knows when we NEED to use force if that is the only choice to fix a problem that is felt by everyone as something needing to be done. For too long, we've had money interests trying to fuel the notion of "fight first" as a policy to fuel the military industrial complex amongst other things, and that is what has screwed up our world so much, and has earned us a position in the world of having far less real respect than we used to have when we lead the world in a quest for democratic government everywhere.

I do find it interesting that many today, like Thom Hartmann, support the draft (in perhaps different form than it was then) where they might have been protesting it back in the 60's. I think the motivation to support the draft today is to make it something where everyone has an equal chance of being asked to be made to serve our country and not just make it a job that only the poorer classes feel the need to work at, which also makes it a profession that the wealthy wants to treat badly, which is what has Bernie so frustrated in the way our vets are treated too. And if today, perhaps we had it not just something like military service that we'd draft people for, but perhaps have it for many other kinds of government service that might not be military either, then we'd have truly shared sacrifice for a while, and perhaps if some can use it either through being drafted or volunteered as a means to help get support/funding for additional education (graduate school, etc.) that might not come with a free bachelor's degree or equivalent that Bernie proposes being funded by financial trading transaction taxes.

But doing this in such a way, perhaps will make it so that there's less of a wealth divide in our country that has separated it so much now.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. oh please. that is palpable bullshit

you're "just curious". Sheesh.

[stevenleser]

31. I would also like to know the answer to that question. Not just the why but the when.

He has already started to flesh out some of his beliefs regarding war. Like he would not do away with the drone program and such. But this goes to the heart of how he would be as a commander in chief.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. You might want to stop trying to stir the CO slime pot

It's not going to help your candidate at all.

[Note: After the draft letter, below, there is a transcript of a February 1992 Nightline program in which then-Governor Bill Clinton discusses the controversial draft letter with Ted Koppel.]
"Dear Colonel Holmes,

I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to and ought to say. First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC. Let me try to explain.

As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary, but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly, but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did. I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations here October 15th and November 16th.

After one week of answering questions about allegations of draft-dodging and one week before the New Hampshire primary, a letter surfaces in which a young Bill Clinton thanks a colonel for "saving me from the draft."Clinton defends the letter and questions the motives of his accusers. (2/12/92)


Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to, quote, participation in war in any form, end quote. From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.

The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea, an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.

The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years (the society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all finished anyway).

When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School, because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to be putting what I have learned to use. But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved.

After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies - there were none - but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them then. At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1 - D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of self-regard and self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally on September 12th, I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help me in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.

I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the Army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship.

And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal. Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel Jones for me. Merry Christmas.

Sincerely,

Bill Clinton"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. Bill Clinton isn't running. Bernie Sanders is.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. He was too old to get CO status.

He was 26 years old by the time his application was up for review.

[moobu2]

45. A technicality.

Bernie said he was a pacifist back then and now he says he's not.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. He's against bogus wars

Just like the majority of this country is against bogus wars. Vietnam was a bogus war based on lies, as was the Iraq war Hillary voted for and Bernie voted against.

[cascadiance]

83. It was also a technicality that Hillary didn't have to face this question either...

Do we know whether she was a "pacifist" then before she became the *hawk* that she is now?

We have one person writing for his campaign (not Bernie himself) calling him a "pacifist" in what's been quoted here. Whether Bernie has "changed" radically his views on war (which I don't believe he has, nor do many here) hasn't been established.

[Maedhros]

50. Apparently, this is the new attack strategy by Clinton supporters.

Welcome to the ignore list.

[stevenleser]

53. Yes, of course, anything we want to know about Bernie is an unfair attack.

[Eleanors38]

54. Yep. (1) Gunz, (2) AA insensitivity, (3) Latino insensitivity, (4) Draft dodging, (5) Next...?

[Maedhros]

55. People making those arguments serve as continuing validation

of my choice to leave the Democratic Party.

[AgingAmerican]

61. Probably because the Vietnam war ended

And he is no longer registered for the draft.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. yes, we must explain opposition to the noble Vietnam war.

I mean, what kind of nut would be against that thing?

[left-of-center2012]

63. Stealing a response from HC

He'll answer that question after he's elected President

[mmonk]

65. I'll add my two cents. I was planning to after I received my "eligilibilty" notice

for that war. But here goes: If I was fighting NAZI Germany, no declaration as an conscientious objector. To fight a political war like Vietnam, damn straight. Got it yet?

[Ron Green]

66. Give me a President with some CO history,

even if he wasn't so classified.

Give me a President who has evolved over a lifetime, but always from principle and integrity.

Give me a President who doesn't really long to be President, but sees the need within this country for a new kind of "Commander in Chief."

[Doctor_J]

67. has Mrs Clinton ever explained why she is no longer against gay marriage?

Assuming she isn't still against it.

[Doctor_J]

68. OMG. He was against the Viet nam war AND the Iraq war????

That's it. I'm voting for Clinton.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. What if they bring a war up and he says no?

We can't have a president who says no to a war.

[cascadiance]

81. It's not a binary question. If a war is brought up, and it is WRONG to do it, I WANT him to say NO!

That's what we elect someone with good judgement for. If we have someone in place that will measure what is going on and whether such a war serves our interests or not, I want someone who's got good judgement on this issue and doesn't automatically say "yes" because the corporate interests and media says he should say yes. There are some occasions where we should go to war, but hopefully in most cases we should be able to say no and be doing the right thing.

[Warren Stupidity]

82. you don't understand. the duty of the president is to rubber stamp the desires of the military

industrial complex. It is in the constitution. Somewhere. Right next to "this is a two party system".

[Doctor_J]

88. can you imagine eight years without a war???

All those generals and contractors joining the ranks of the unemployed. Munitions plants closing. Billions of dollars uncommitted every single month. Arrgh! Chaos!!

[Warren Stupidity]

98. I couldn't sleep last night I was so worried.

Please stop talking about this. I'll support Hillary now. She'll do the right thing.

[MoveIt]

75. How will we start the next great "War on <something>"!??

[Ken Burch]

69. Obviously he was at the time.

And a Bill Clinton loyalist should step very carefully when discussing what anybody else did during the Vietnam era.

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. Bill Clinton isn't running

[Ken Burch]

99. True. But if you supported him,

You aren't really morally entitled to criticize anybody else's decisions about the question of serving in Vietnam(other than those who supported the war but found a way to avoid risking their own lives in it).

Bernie no longer being a CO is not an issue. And a change in that should not be an issue, unless Bernie were running on a promise to be more hawkish than your candidate, which he clearly is not doing.

[randys1]

76. He was in regard to Nam only as I recall, this really is the wrong road to go on

[Trajan]

77. I don't fucking care ..

But, apparently, I have more long time DUers to iggy for using such crass, specious objections against this decent, humble man ...

[TheKentuckian]

84. When did this party get a fucking Dennis Prager "wing"? SHRINK THE DAMN CIRCUS TENT!

[L0oniX]

87. The draft ended?

[LWolf]

90. It's amazing

how many topics that have been discussed repeatedly disingenuous posters keep repeating.

I guess when you don't have much, you go with what you've got.

Or we could just nominate the best person running based on issues and record.

[Romulox]

93. Hillary Clinton is a War Hawk. Where did she serve during Vietnam?

[whatchamacallit]

94. Cool, DU chickenhawks getting all FR on Bernie

[SouthernProgressive]

95. Because after a decade of supporting the MIC it just wouldn't make much sense. nt.

[cali]

102. talk about a real stretch- particularly from a supporter of Hillary Hawk

[beam me up scottie]

103. You're anti war and you're supporting which candidate again?

[Art_from_Ark]

104. This candidate

[beam me up scottie]

105. Jesus Christ.

How revolting.

Well if that's who they prefer over Bernie obviously they're not anti war.

This is just another political football for so called liberals who claim to care about the issue.