Want to debate the idea of highly limited Socialism vs. Capitalism? Fine. But...

[Bonobo]

let's not be fucking cowards and say "B, but the American people would never VOTE for him..."

If we did that for all issues that were at some point unpopular or "scary", we would have NEVER made any progress.

[jfern]

1. They'll never vote for a 1 term black man from Chicago whose name sounds like Osama

[Armstead]

2. A public fund for lazy old people so they can retire? How awful!

[Cheese Sandwich]

3. When they attack him with socialism it backfires. They already sent Claire McCaskill to try it once.

Her message fell completely flat and Bernie even got a boost out of it.

If he is questioned in a debate about this it's only going to help him. Because it gives him then like a full 2 minutes to explain what he means. People ought to have access to health care as a basic right. We ought to have full employment. Public universities should be tuition free. And yes corporations have no business running our prisons or fire departments, or dictating our health care for that matter. Some things really ought to be done quite differently. We ought to guarantee a decent quality of life for all our people and yes it will take something of a revolutionary change to make it happen.

[Bonobo]

4. That's a great point, of course, but...

to bring up Socialism at all and then, instead of having a discussion about its merits and lack of, to simply say "'Muricans will never vote for a Soshalist!!" is so cowardly and lame...

It literally makes me feel ill that people are like that.

[DanTex]

5. But it's the truth: the American people won't vote for a socialist.

Also, I don't think that the government should own the major means of production.

[Bonobo]

6. Everything is "the truth" until it isn't. It was "true" that a black man couldn't be president.

Until we did it.

[DanTex]

8. This one's still true, for a few decades at least: a socialist can't win a national election.

BTW, how do you feel about the government owning the major means of production?

[ram2008]

10. Socialism does not mean state ownership of production n/t

[DanTex]

13. Bernie's version of socialism, at least his 1987 version, does.

[ram2008]

15. You clearly didn't even read the article you posted

No where does it imply state ownership of the means of production.

[DanTex]

16. Public ownership is state ownership. Look it up.

I'm surprised you're not aware of this. It's a very common term.

[ram2008]

17. It is not. Please pick up a history book or take a political science class

You're probably just going by the webster definition. Public ownership means many things from an academic/political perspective.

[DanTex]

19. Gee, let's see. Seems pretty unanimous.

ownership by the state; nationalization

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/public+ownership

Majority or controlling shareholding (51 percent) of a firm by a government. Complete public ownership of a firm is called nationalization.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/public-ownership.html#ixzz3lII0dnDq

businesses, property etc in public ownership are owned by the government

http://www.ldoceonline.com/Economics-topic/public-ownership

a ​situation where the ​government ​owns ​property, a ​company, or an ​industry

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-ownership

Here's a marxist take:

Public ownership is the ownership, i.e. the right of disposal, by a public body representing society, by government, state power or some other political body.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1947/public-ownership.htm

[ram2008]

21. The first 4 are rudimentary dictionary definitions, you have to educate yourself

Anyone whose taken a rudimentary Pol Sci 101 class can tell the difference between public ownership and state ownership especially in the context of the type of socialism Bernie was espousing.

The public in the case he is referring to is the people -- the workers -- not the state. Hence why he was talking about democracy not Dictatorship. In this case he is referring to the people having control over the companies they work for ( think shareholders who also work for their company) .

That you don't recognize this and continually spin is intellectually dishonest and quite frankly- lazy.

[DanTex]

22. Yes, the dictionary is a good place for definitions. And, yes, everyone who has taken either

Economics or Political Science 101 knows that public ownership means state ownership. And socialists definitely know what it means.

There's a simple way to describe worker-owned enterprises in order to distinguish them from publicly owned enterprises. The term is "worker-owned." Bernie knows about this also.

[ram2008]

26. You need to read it within the context of the article

It is exceedingly clear he's talking about a worker owned economy rather than a state owned planned economy. And it's literally in the sentence before and after

" And again nobody but an idiot has a blueprint of how you bring that about in a country of two hundred and thirty million people in a highly complex economy. We do know a direction we should be moving...

Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it means decentralization, it means involving people in their work. Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can. "

So again, first we don't see Bernie advocating the state controlling anything. Rather we see him advocating decentralization to the extent that its the group of people controlling the company rather than an authoritarian boss or state. And even then, he doesn't say we should just flip a switch one day and have it that way, rather he says its a direction we should be moving in- towards more democratic control.

[DanTex]

28. The words "public ownership" don't disappear because you decide not to bold them.

Yes, he's in favor of democratically governed worker's councils (or soviets, in Russian) running factories and shops, and he's in favor of public (i.e. state) ownership of the means of production. This is classic socialism. The government owns the factories, the workers run them, and the profits are socialized.

[ram2008]

29. You're just playing semantics

Whatever, as you can tell no one agrees with your interpretation and its a big reach. You can keep ignoring the rest of the context of the entire article, but it's clear from the other posts that you're not convincing anyone but yourself.

No where has Bernie advocated a state controlled, planned economy. No where. You can't have a deregulated, centrally planned economy. But good luck on your mission of convincing people of that! lol.

[DanTex]

31. It's not "semantics" it's very clear and frequently used term, which has a meaning

that everyone understands.

Public ownership means state ownership. And particularly coming from Sanders, a socialist, who is describing a classic socialist system, there's no ambiguity here at all. He wants state ownership and worker control.

[ram2008]

33. Great, find me some evidence of him calling for state control of the economy

Aside from one word in an article from 1987.

It's abundantly clear he is calling for democratic control by the people, the workers, in the means of production. He literally says it after the sentence you quoted earlier, and after he rails about how too few people have control over too much of the economy..

Why would someone who is railing against having too few people controlling the economy advocate having a state controlled economy, where there would be even less people controlling it??? Helllllloooooo, use your brain.

[Bonobo]

30. If Bernie had meant "government ownership", he would have said it.

Your attempts to repaint Sanders' positions are feeble and transparent.

[DanTex]

32. LOL. Now you're going to pretend that you don't know what "public ownership" means either?

This is getting kinda sad.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-ownership

[Bonobo]

34. Well you're pretending you don't know what "public" means, so I think it's a wash.

Should I post the dictionary definition of "public" for you?

[DanTex]

35. "Public ownership." It's a very common term. Everyone knows what it means.

Particularly in socialist circles. It means state ownership. I'm not sure why you're even trying to deny this.

[Bonobo]

36. Do you understand that in a Democracy the "government" is supposed to BE the public? nt

[DanTex]

37. That's exactly why the "public ownership" means "government ownership."

The democratically elected government represents the public, and hence things owned by it are "publicly owned."

[Bonobo]

38. But you are counting on real-world fear and dislike of the government to make a theoretic statement

of theory sound dangerous.

It is dishonest.

AND it makes you, ironically, sound like a Libertarian tea-bagger (something many on your side TRY to accuse Sanders as being).

It is hilarious.

[DanTex]

39. By who? By people too dumb to know what "public ownership" means?

The only dishonesty here is from people trying to pretend that "public ownership" doesn't actually mean the government.

[Bonobo]

40. Dan, I know what you are doing and I have told you what I think.

There's no point in discussing it further.

[bobbobbins01]

12. Yeah, thats not socialism at all.

Government ownership has nothing to do with socialism. Please educate yourself.

[DanTex]

14. In Bernie's version it does, unless he's "evolved" since 1987.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=581267

[bobbobbins01]

41. No it doesn't.

Your link says nothing about the government owning the means of production. Maybe you should try "evolving" your reading comprehension.

[Bonobo]

18. Government owning the means of production? Can't say I would be a fan of that, but...

I do support the idea of workers collectively owning the means of production. What about you?

[DanTex]

20. Well, that's one thing you disagree with Bernie on, unless he's evolved since 1987.

Me, no, I believe in regulated capitalism with a strong safety net. And while I think worker owned cooperatives are great, I wouldn't want that to be mandated by the state.

[Bonobo]

23. No, it isn't. Bernie never said the government should own the means of production. bt

[DanTex]

24. Wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=581267

[PowerToThePeople]

7. DanTex is NOT "the American people."

http://www.seattle.gov/council/sawant/

The only vote you have right to claim is your own.

[DanTex]

9. Sure, in Vermont, or in Seattle. But not in a national election.

[PowerToThePeople]

11. Time will tell.

#FeelTheBern

[daleanime]

27. Of course not....

every thing should belong to the Rich, like the Bible says.






Just in case


But we won't agree, in fact it's likely that you won't agree that we won't agree. So I'll just say-Have a lovely evening.

[Prism]

25. "If the President supports gay marriage, he'll lose!"

As stated by the usual centrist, pragmatic reasonables.

Same old shit, new topic.

[SouthernProgressive]

42. What is "highly limited socialism?"

Can you define how you are using that term. It is something I am not familiar with at all and I'm kind of a political junkie.