Can't the Cornel West apologists admit that his use of the word "n***ized"

[pnwmom]

with respect to the President, no matter what his philosophical intention behind it, is a gift to rightwing haters and bigots everywhere?

The bigots won't care about the context, or the policies, or any intellectual debate.

They'll just hear that word, uttered by a black scholar who's firmly on the Bernie team.

And it will give them a little thrill.

They can't be bigots -- look who else hates Obama.

Yup, everyone hates that "n***ized" President.

Even that black guy. The one with Bernie.

[Scootaloo]

1. You seem really intent on telling a black man to watch his mouth and know his place

This is what, your third OP on the topic?

[pnwmom]

9. I'm talking to mostly white Bernie supporters who think it's fine that this guy

has been selected to be on the Bernie team.

Yup, I've had other OP's on Cornel West. And I probably will as long as he's on the Bernie team, shooting his mouth off about Obama.

[Scootaloo]

30. And I'm talking to white clinton supporters who think they have the right

To tell a black activist what to say, when to say it, what tone he should say it in, and who he is allowed to associate with.

[Bonobo]

35. Sweet!!

Scootaloo, you are awesome.

[NanceGreggs]

98. No one has told West ...

... what he can or can't say, etc. No one.

What is being pointed out is that West has already said things that many people find downright repulsive.

Quite frankly, I don't care if BS - who is already struggling with gaining traction among AAs - chooses to embrace someone who they by and large despise. In fact, it only serves to demonstrate BS's poor judgment, his tone-deafness, and his inability to comprehend what's going on around him. Those are not traits one wants to see in a man who wants to be president.

The fact remains that AAs are huge Obama supporters, and West has made many truly disgusting remarks about him. If Bernie thinks that THIS is the man who will help him capture that elusive AA support, so be it. From a common sense point of view, it seems more like committing political suicide than an attempt to cultivate support among a key group of voters - but, hey, ain't my monkey, ain't my circus.

Bernie ain't going nowhere without the support of AAs and Obama supporters. And all the cheerleading in the world isn't going to change that fact.

You can argue all night about how West has a right to say what he said - and he certainly does. No one is debating the point. But the real point here is that BS has chosen to latch-on to a man who can only be a detriment to his goal of gaining support among AAs - and the fact that he has done so does not speak well of his decision-making abilities, nor his comprehension of the dynamics at play here.

[brush]

112. Many great points in this post

Hope the Sanders Campaign and his supporters somehow finally get it — West is highly unpopular to most folks in the AA community.

Partnering with West is going to cause problems for them.

[Scootaloo]

114. You cited a homophobic misogynist who called West a pimp and a hustler, Brush

You've got a tough sell to convince me that Steve Harvey speaks for the whole of Black America. maybe he's further on that particular road than all the white Clinton supporters swearing up and down they're authorized to speak for black people, but... I'm pretty sure he's still a ways off the mark, there.

[Scootaloo]

113. That is EXACTLY what is being said, Nance

"Ain't my monkey"?

(cough)

What I know is that if West had decided to support Clinton, he would be getting a full-body embrace and more sneering would be coming out of you and the rest of the Clinton camp about Sanders' "black problem." Instead, you're trying to re-frame your argument that Sanders is getting "the wrong kind of blacks." While recycling the same "angry black man" rhetoric the Clinton campaign was using in 2008.

[NanceGreggs]

127. I said nothing ...

... about BS getting "the wrong kind of blacks".

BS chose to align himself with West - a man not well revered, shall we say, among AAs. We'll see how that goes.

Bernie has a "black problem", as you've put it. That problem was not created by the HRC campaign, nor the MSM, nor the PTB in the Party. Whether West proves to be "the wrong black" to have embraced is not up to me, but up to the AA demographic.

We'll see if West was the "wrong black" in due course.

[LeftOfWest]

133. 'ain't my monkey, ain't my circus'

omg.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Right???

[Capt. Obvious]

166. When I saw a thread with "apologist" in the title

I figured I'd click on it and see if you were here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. Cause we all know ALL and I mean this, ALL African Americans speak with absolutely ONE VOICE... err

NOT.

Some, and that is SOME African Americans here on this board, do not like West. That hardly means all. And you would be surprised, I am sure, of how many young people in the Inner City QUOTE West. They love him.

So the tautology alone is kind of amusing.

[840high]

132. +a zillion

[beam me up scottie]

153. + a brazillion

[Le Taz Hot]

170. Oh, yeah!

[arcane1]

55. I'm glad we have you to tell us who the "wrong" black people are. n/t

[underthematrix]

12. Cornel can and does say whatever he wants. But Bernie has wrapped his arms

around him. And it is Bernie's problem not Cornel West.

[Bonobo]

28. Like Jeremiah Wright!! As Hillary said: "You choose your own preachers!"

Got it.

[underthematrix]

75. Jeremiah Wright is a bi-racial pastor a former marine, who said GOD DAMN AMERICA

President Obama belonged to the Church of Christ which is monstly a white denomination. They own Pepperdine University in Malibu. Rev. Wright never ebver used as a recruiting tool. He never ever went on the campaign trail with President Obama. What eventually came out was that the Obamas did not attend that regularly because of than candidate Obama's schedule (state senator, US senator, then president). It was simply white hysteria about nothing. But the candidate who doesn't have time for hate did something extraordinary. He fully owned the problem. then he gave the greatest speeech I've ever heard in 65 years on race entitled a MOre Perfect Union.

There's no comparison between Rev Wright and bernie's recruitment of Cornel West as part of his outreach strategy to AA folks. President Obama is the most beloved man in the AA community. Insults to or about PBO do not sit well with the AA community. We understand his great sacrifice. We understand that he gets more threats on a daily basis than all previous presidents combined and then some. He has the largest and most complex security detail. No president has done more or worked harder for the American people under extremely adverse political social and environmental conditions than President Obama.

[JustAnotherGen]

150. You can throw the mic

[Scootaloo]

46. I've heard this argument before. Jeremiah Wright. Donnie McClurkin. Bill Ayers.

It was stupid when you guys tried it then. it's stupid now.

[bvf]

107. Yep.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

They don't learn. How many more OPs like this one are in the queue? I'm guessing lots.

[dsc]

154. glad to see you like McClurkin

all he does is literally drive gays to suicide but I guess we gays don't count in your world. McClurkin was nothing about race it was about his hatred of gays pure and simple.

[Scootaloo]

156. I don't like McClurkin at all

But Barack obama is not guilty for what that asshole does, is he?

[dsc]

160. Obama sure is guilty for what MeClurkin said at an event that Obama

paid for, Obama picked him to emcee for, and then let him give a half hour testimony about how God can remove the icky gay from you. He sure as hell helped build that.

[Scootaloo]

162. Alright. I get you there.

[Chitown Kev]

82. I'm a black man who is a (mild) supporter of President Obama in spite of his flaws

and policies that I don't like.

So according to Dr. West, that makes me "niggerized"

I resent it coming from Dr. West to describe me and I resent those of you Sanders supporters that think this language is appropriate.

[Scootaloo]

106. That does not appear to resemble what West has said

But then, you know, I've actually gone back and read what the man has written, and tried to listen to the words he's spoken (it's hard - computer problems.) And what i'm finding really doesn't much resemble the claims of third-person narratives from Clinton supporters.

In fact what I'm seeing from Clinton supporters is exactly what I described. I've seen Cornell West labeled a "hustler" and "poverty pimp." I see Pnwmom's - among others - making OP after OP about how West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters. all without a single word about the substance of what west has said, only against the tone with which he said it.

It's my understanding that this sort of attitude and rhetoric is a real problem when Bernie supporters directed it at persons like Tia Oso or Marissa Johnson. Why has it suddenly stopped being a problem when Clinton supporters point it at Cornell west?

[brush]

116. Are you claiming that what West has said is not what "Clinton supporters allege?

I don't know how you can claim that as I've responded to your post with links to exactly what and how he trashed the President.

And your characterization that so called Clinton supporters are saying ". . .West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters" is edging very, very close to racism itself and you know very well no one in these West threads has said anything close to that but you.

Now here again are links where you can find West's vile accusations against the President and others so you won't have any excuse to say you don't know what the reasons are West is so despised by many in the AA community.

"The Rise and Fall of Cornel West" by Michael Eric Dyson..

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost

Melissa Harris-Perry on Cornel West

http://www.thenation.com/blog/160725/cornel-west-v-barack-obama#

[Scootaloo]

122. it is not what Chitown Kev alleged.

I'm a black man who is a (mild) supporter of President Obama in spite of his flaws

and policies that I don't like.

So according to Dr. West, that makes me "niggerized"

As far as I've been able to tell, Dr. West actually has a very specific meaning when he uses the term (and his use of it predates the Obama administration by at least several years). Maybe I'm just crazy 'cause I actually look at and think about what was being said, and look for further remarks and details.

As for this bit?

And your characterization that so called Clinton supporters are saying ". . .West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters" is edging very, very close to racism itself and you know very well no one in these West threads has said anything close to that but you.

No, I know that it is EXACTLY what is being said. The argument presented is that Cornell West "mouths off" and is not "respectful enough.' His "tone" is bad, and how dare he use words that make someone uncomfortable? It's the same shit that some Bernie supporters were doing in response to marissa Johnson last month, and if it's wrong when they did it (it was) then it should also be wrong when Clinton supporters do it (it is)

otherwise we enter this weird twilight zone where it's okay to be a racist shitbag towards black people, so long as those black people are supporting the "wrong" candidate. Where one standard exists for Sanders supporters and another, very much looser standard applies to Clinton supporters.

And thank you for the links to people who aren't Steve motherfucking Harvey. I'll have to go over 'em

[brush]

126. Please post a link to where someone except you said . . .

". . .West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters".

Because again, that is not just bordering on racism, it is over the line.

And in case you don't know (seems you don't know much about the AA community even though you have quite a lot to say as if you do), Steve Harvey's popularity is directly proportional to West's unpopularity, partly because he's backed Obama against West's slurs in that video link I sent you that you ridiculed.

And also because of his best selling books and advice on relationships to women, which apparently you are unaware of, and not to mention his radio and TV shows.

[Scootaloo]

129. I know this game, Brush

The criticisms of Dr. West here center around his tone, his word choice, and his lack of "proper respect." While it's true no one here has outright called the man "uppity," the only reason the haven't is because that's a good way to end up not posting here anymore. The intent is still there, when you spend your posts calling a black man "mouthy", "disrespectful," "hustler," and "pimp." All that's missing is "thug" to get the racist dog whistle bingo.

And again, when this same shitty rhetoric was being shot at Tia Oso, Marissa Johnson, and Mara Williford, it was condemned, and rightfully so, for being exactly that - demands that black voices sit down, shut up, and know their proper place. As with what is being directed at west, no one used those exact words in that exact order, but the rhetoric, coding, dog whistles, and context all made it pretty clear what was being said.

it works like that over on the republican side, too. does Donald Trump hate Mexicans? Pretty certain you think he does. he's never SAID he does, however. Instead you rely on the body of his "work" - the rhetoric, statements, contexts, and coding - from which you (rightfully) infer that Trump hates Mexicans.

This stuff is no more acceptable from Clinton supporters than it is from the supporters of other candiates.

[brush]

130. So you're saying West's characterizations of the President are OK?

It that your game?

FYI, since you seem to not want to get it, again, West is highly unpopular in the AA community because of the things he's said about Obama.

I don't care if you feel it was about tone and not substance or policy, or what BLM protesters said or were or weren't called, using Cornell West as a surrogate to woo votes in the black community from Hillary was not the smartest choice.

That's not a hard concept to understand. That's what I'm saying. Forget all the other bs. The Sanders campaign wants Obama coalition votes, which no Dem can win without, yet chooses a well know Obama hater to partner with.

Duh!

I'll give Bernie the benefit of the doubt and go with his advisers as the ones who made the West decision.

Given that, I must say Bernie was not well served by his advisers in this instance. I do hope less tone deaf, better researched decisions are made in the future as those are important characteristics I look for in a candidate and a president because even though you might not thing so, I am still undecided.

[Scootaloo]

135. I very honestly don't have an opinion of what West has said.

I actually do not feel that I am in a position to condemn or praise him on it. The closest I'll offer to an opinion is that i think his statements are probably best taken as a whole, rather than in five-word soundbytes - but this is a standard i hold for pretty much anyone, so I can't say that it's special for West.

Look, I get that a lot of people have reservations about West. I've looked around on my own, and he's definitely a controversial figure, but it's really not my space to get involved in black people talking about a black intellectual or anything. I'm not going to take you as the "final word," but I understand you're not just talking completely out your ass, either. As far as I can see though, that particular discussion just doesn't involve me.

My point here is on the hypocritical reversal of standards on display from Clinton supporters. To spend the entire month of August taking swings at Sanders supporters for things directed at Black Lives Matters protesters, and then, a few weeks later, use the exact same rhetoric towards Dr. West? While taking magnifying glasses and counting brown pixels in photos? And strumming that shitty "Jews vs. Blacks" bass line like they've been doing since April?

[Chitown Kev]

131. If I wanted to call Dr. West "uppity"

I would.

But I am not going to sit up and debate with white people as to whether Dr. West's use of the word "niggerized" is appropriate to use of the first African American president of the United States or people who support the president.

An overwhelming majority of African Americans have said that it is not OK that one of the most prominent public intellectuals in the world (regardless of ethnicity, although that is a significant factor in Dr. West's case) hurls racial epithets at the first African American president. This is not a subject for white people to debate with African Americans.

[Scootaloo]

139. See my reply to brush, #135

West's rhetorical choices are not what I am debating here.

But I will say? If you don't want to discuss a topic with someone, then broaching it as a topic of discussion with them is probably counter-productive.

[TM99]

149. Well, then, debate me.

I am not white.

You claim that an overwhelming majority of AA's dislike him. Give me proof. And no, you don't get to recycle two well known hit pieces on West as your proof.

I know a damned many who respect West, hell even love the man for his passion and his fight for social and economic justice which has been going on for decades.

We agree that it is not kosher for whites to be throwing around the 'nigger' word, but in our own community, we use that word all the time from musical references to little jabs to friendly ribbing to outright criticisms of each other. Within the context of the full quote, yes, Obama's actions pre election and then post election show that he did embrace the 'white supremacy' culture and has done very little to truly support our communities since taking office.

More cops killing our young men and women have occurred on his watch than any other! His AG spent his years covering for the white fuckers who own the banks while pushing the failed 'war on drugs' which everyone knows and has researched, disproportionately causes harm to OUR communities more than any other with the exception of another group of 'brown' people - hispanics & latino! His neoliberalism New Dem policies and positions continue that ridiculous separation of economic and social justice issues. Obama will 'evolve' on gay marriage rights but has done nothing to stop another 2008 Wall Street cluster-fuck from happening again. The stock market is strong while Detroit goes bankrupt.

So you dislike him and think it was a bad move. Others in our community does not. Time will show which of us is correct and why.

[Chitown Kev]

159. The overwhelming majoriy of AA's dislike the language the

that west has used in criticizing President Obama. If you read black blogs and listened to black radio, you would know that

BTW, jus because you are no white doesn't not mean that you are African American and that may not .be the same cultural contexts

but in our own community, we use that word all the time from musical references to little jabs to friendly ribbing to outright criticisms of each other.

the problem here is that Dr. West's audience is much bigger than "our community" (as the number of youtube clips including Dr. West illustrates)

[TM99]

161. Some black blogs and some black radio.

Not all, and I still don't see you providing proof that it is the majority.

So I am bi-racial and because my mother is white, I am not black enough now?

Back away from that bigoted shit right now. I have had a foot in both communities my entire life. I definitely won't get into another because I am bi-racial, I am not black enough to comment on AA issues debate with the likes of someone who plays that card when they can't argue or prove their point with facts.

[mythology]

173. I think both West and the women from the Seattle event

Are idiots harming the causes they claim to serve (I think they all really are just out to get attention to themselves) by using intentionally inflammatory tactics that marginalize them and their cause.

It's not about labeling them as uppity or knowing their place. It's about how to effectively impact change. It's about not setting up an antagonistic approach that will drive people away from the cause they claim to support.

You don't seem to be willing to consider that there is any explanation other than racism, but I believe that much of the criticism is rooted in either a similar framework as I do, or in the context of supporting their preferred candidate. But neither West or the women from Seattle should get away with boorish behavior because of their race or because somebody might label their critics as racist.

[840high]

134. Not this shit again. STOP.

[Scootaloo]

137. Beg pardon?

[840high]

172. sorry - this message was

meant for the OP.

[Bonobo]

2. Saying BLM deserves a voice while demanding Cornel not have one is not a logical position.

You are consistently playing up the one word and ignoring the deep meaning of the cultural analysis that lies behind it.

That is the kind of anti-intellectual gamesmanship that I loathe.

[pnwmom]

11. BLM wasn't using slurs against anyone. If they had called Bernie a comparable name

(not that there is one), his supporters would be up in arms.

[Bonobo]

17. BLMs message that America is a White Supremacist nation is exactly what Cornel is talking about.

Cornel is very much a part of the BLM movement.

You are being a hypocrite.

[pnwmom]

77. Did you like it when some people were calling Bernie a white supremacist?

Do you think any amount of logic or reasoning would have made that acceptable?

Well, it's no more acceptable to say that Obama is "n****ized."

[Bonobo]

84. "Like" has nothing to do with it.

Also it is a bad analogy.

Cornel did not call Obama the "N" word. He was describing a social process.

It would be more akin to saying that Bernie was part of the white supremacy structure of US politics.

Ironically, Bernie is the only one with the courage to allow that message to be delivered.

[pnwmom]

87. He used a form of the N word. That was his choice. n/t

[Bonobo]

90. You should stay out of the internal dialog between black people since you don't get the context.

Just my opinion. You know, from one white person to another.

[AtomicKitten]

24. BLM called Sanders a "white supremacist liberal." That's pretty slurry as far as slurs go

[Bonobo]

32. Oh, the irony! When Cornel used the phrase "White supremacy" in his intro speech to Sanders...

Suddenly the Clinton supporters run from the term.

Wake me up when Hillary has the guts and conviction to have herself introduced by a black person who uses that phrase!

[AtomicKitten]

73. Exactly.

[pnwmom]

79. And didn't you object to that? n/t

[AtomicKitten]

83. Point is you didn't object. Cornel used identical phrasing

... and now you have a problem with it?

You might want to work on consistency because lack of it makes your tactical assaults on Bernie laughable.

[Bonobo]

91. Ouch! nt

[AgingAmerican]

72. Now that's laughable

"White Supremacist Liberals"

Also, flipping off the press when they asked questions was a nice touch.

[noiretextatique]

97. white supremacist is not a slur?

ok.

[pnwmom]

180. Bernie's supporters weren't shocked and angry? nt

[Doctor_J]

178. They called his supporters white supremacists. What would you consider a slur?

[pnwmom]

181. How do you think Bernie's supporters reacted? Weren't they angry?

Why is Bernie choosing to align himself with a scholar who has angered much of the AA community with his slurs against Obama?

I think he's making a mistake, but it's not too late to undo it.

[Chathamization]

57. Particularly odd since Cornel West is a BLM activist. People say we need to listen to BLM activists

even if we are offended by some of the things they say/do, then turn around and tell us that we need to ignore BLM activists they don't like (and disparaging said activists).

Of course, West being arrested with dozens of BLM activists (including prominent leaders) protesting the DOJ was mostly ignored here. Some people's support for movements (and members of those movements) doesn't go beyond "will this help me politically."

[Bonobo]

64. Boom goes the dynamite, I guess is what some would say. nt

[uponit7771]

3. The answers I've seen have ranged from straight deflection to intimating it's ok because he black

... or some shit like that.

If a white person said such liberal or conservative theyd' be up in arms

[RandySF]

4. No

They'll keep twisting reality to suit their ends.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. I don't want a scholar's words to need to pass some half-wit Republican muster.

I'm not in an accommodating mood toward Republicans, and I'm not disposed to pragmatism at the moment.

[pnwmom]

13. He wasn't speaking as a scholar. He was speaking as an attention-seeking blowhard

whose feelings got hurt when he didn't get special tickets to the inauguration.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

16. See post 5.

[ancianita]

33. Not cool. He's a fellow Democrat and Socialist. Your hyperbolicity is getting tiresome.

[pnwmom]

40. He uses racially-based hate words against the first African American President. I don't care what party he is;

being a Democrat wouldn't make it acceptable.

[RufusTFirefly]

65. Touché!

[frylock]

48. This theory has no basis in reality whatsoever..

Dr. West is very articulate in his criticism of the President. This is a classic technique used by Obama's most ardent supporters to conflate any criticism as hatred, or as merely lashing out because of some perceived slight.

[Barky Bark]

6. Ignoring the context of the message?

"A niggerized black person is a black person who is afraid and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy," West explained. "So when many of us said we have to fight against racism, what were we told? 'No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, political calculations. He's the president of all America, not just black America.' We know he's president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie."

[pnwmom]

22. The context doesn't take the ugliness out of the slur. n/t

[ancianita]

37. The context IS the ugliness that produced the words, which Obama understands and you don't.

[pnwmom]

47. Where is your evidence that Obama would excuse West's personal, racially based attacks?

[ancianita]

56. I posted a video of him saying he loved West on another thread. You provide evidence that Obama

would NOT excuse West, since you are the one implying as much in your OP claim here.

[Iris]

142. I would argue further that West does not need to be excused by Obama.

West is a grown man whose each and every utterance does not need to be condoned by the President.

[Ed Suspicious]

86. You are misidentifying what is ugly. Ugly is to not use one's position of power to help

an oppressed minority simply because it isn't politically expedient. That's ugly. Wests words are revelatory.

[underthematrix]

7. And that's the point. Bernie doesn't get it.

Bernie has given wingnuts, righties and racists and probably some emoprogs permission to call my beloved President the N-word. Oh well. As PBO would say, it's the silly season.

[Bonobo]

8. 'Let BLM speak!!!" Tell Cornel to shut his racist mouth!!"

See any problem?

[underthematrix]

14. this has nothing to do with Cornel West. This is

the choice of the candidate Bernie Sanders.

[Bonobo]

19. Erm, what? nt

[underthematrix]

23. Keep moving. NOthing to see here

[Bonobo]

25. I simply did not understand what your last message meant. That's all. nt

[underthematrix]

34. well read my other posts here. I have said the same thing at least three times.

[Bonobo]

38. Makes no damn sense. This OP is about Cornel.

Unless you are doing the guilt be association thing ala Jeremiah Wright, that is. But that makes sense considering that was Hillary's modus operandi in 2008.

[underthematrix]

54. Look this is not about making Bernie bad. I don't do that kind of crazy childish shit.

Bernie is not bad. However, Bernie is the leader of his campaign. Cornel is his choice. Cornel West has a right to say anything he wants. But when you wrap your arms around him and you're candidate, you get the blowback. Folks are mocking Bernie on Twitter about using Cornel West as a strategy for recruiting black folks. Most of us think it's funny. We're not mad at Bernie. We just think he's clueless.

[Bonobo]

60. OK, that's your opinion. Mine is different.

I see a man of courage, who does not calculate, who is always consistent.

He does not run from Cornel's language because he is, at heart, a man with the heart of a justice-seeker and protester.

[underthematrix]

63. And I respect that.

[ancianita]

45. People are now criticizing Bernie Sanders through his choice of having Cornel West introduce him.

A tiresome, old wedge to pit Democrat against Democrat. I can't even...

[Bonobo]

52. But the damned irony of it? How can they stand it?

They SCREAMED that Bernie should allow BLM to storm on stage and be handed a mic, to be given a voice to discuss black issues.

Now they are SCREAMING that Bernie should not give a great black scholar a mic because what? He used harsh language?

And the thing is, it IS harsh. But harsh rhetoric is ALWAYS involved when there is great social inequality to be dealt with.

The demand for sanitized voices only... how can they stand their hypocrisy?

[ancianita]

71. With you. Although I admit I haven't thought of the inconsistency of it.

[grasswire]

118. yes, see my sig

Frederick Douglass

[Bonobo]

119. Frederick Douglass?

Why are you quoting a RACIST?

[underthematrix]

69. That's how your worldview operates. No I'm not voting for Bernie in the primary but

if he wins the DEM nomination, he's got my vote. That's how I roll. I may not like Bernie or his supporters but he will have my vote. Pettiness is something I leave to others. I'm too old, too smart too well educated too sane to vote for any of that ignorant racist sexist homophobic xenophobic trash on the other side.

[Bonobo]

70. You forgot "too humble". nt

[underthematrix]

78. My fierceness is real. Humility is not required

[Bonobo]

81. "ferocity" is the preferred term for highly educated people such as ourselves. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

110. You had me laughing on that one. Then I noticed your sig line.

And I'm still laughing (and Frank Zappa is puking in his grave at the way his good name has been misappropriated).

[Bonobo]

111. A famous character by Eugene Levy as well. nt

[ancianita]

74. I'm a Democrat and will vote the way you do. If Cornel were running I'd still vote for him, because

his spirit is Democratic, Socialist, Christian in the best sense (and I'm an atheist), and he always stands with The People. When he criticizes anyone as complicit with corporate oppressors I'll support him no matter how he says it.

[underthematrix]

80. Yep you vote the DEM ticket no matter what

[brush]

96. Just wait 'til Bernie gets "swiftboated" with video clips . . .

of West trashing the President.

That'll sure go over well, 24/7 ads of Bernie's surrogate bashing Obama with the most vile language imaginable and looking for Obama coalition votes (90% of black voters, 67% of Latino/a voters, 55% of women voters).

Stay in denial and keep thinking West won't be a problem for Bernie.

[ancianita]

105. GOP ads that pit black against black? Kind of Willy Horton-y, eh? They'll come off as more racist

than they already are. You definitely underrate public awareness these days.

First of all, West won't be stumping with Bernie, except where HE decides Bernie needs exposure and endorsement. Hillary would count herself lucky to have similar AA leaders introduce her. But the idea of the BS camp it to get Americans excited about voting again.

I think you sell the Democratic Party short. GOP ads like you envision would be all Democrats and youth need to see to unite, double down on the GOTV effort just like they did for Obama in 2007.

And they'll be called Bernietards.

[brush]

108. You really don't know how despised West is in the AA community do you?

Talk about underrating a problem.

Dislike of West is no secret in the black community.

Looks like the Sanders campaign and his supporters don't know this.

Too bad. It'll be their loss.

[ancianita]

109. Maybe the AA community you know, but not the one I know. You think you got your hand on the

pulse of 15% of the U.S.?

I know I don't.

It's probably a mixed bag, but we can't go down infighting over two fellow Democratic Socialists.

I mean, come ON.

[brush]

121. The Sanders campaign picked the wrong guy to be a surrogate

It's as simple as that. Surely there are other prominent AA Sanders supporters to partner with without all the negative baggage West has.

Where were the campaign researchers? Why didn't they uncover West's unpopularity among the group they are targeting to woo voters over from?

If you aren't aware of why West is so unpopular, here are some links from fellow black intellectuals discussing their souring relationships with West:

"The Rise and Fall of Cornel West" by Michael Eric Dyson..

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost

Melissa Harris-Perry on Cornel West

http://www.thenation.com/blog/160725/cornel-west-v-barack-obama#

[TM99]

125. You act like you and you alone

know exactly what all blacks and bi-racial men and women feel or want.

Do you know how many of us are extremely disappointed by Obama. He campaigned one way and has governed another. Do you know how many of us value the intellectual acumen and political activism of Dr. West? He has been a consistent and congruent strong and passionate voice for social and economic justices for decades.

What you Clinton supporters are caught up in is the drama of a high school student council election. Y'all are obsessed with personalities. Y'all are obsessed with how someone, anyone might say something bad about that one or good about this one. It is black and white for y'all. Someone is either all fucking good or all fucking bad.

Well my friend, that is not reality in the adult world. No one is all good or all bad. When we obsess over persona in adulthood and do all we can to protect others from seeing our authentic self then we generally are labeled narcissists. In adulthood we look for congruency and consistent of rhetoric and action to know whether someone is authentic and trustworthy.

You are Clinton supporter. So why are you worried about one very tame intro speech by Dr. West for Sanders on the campaign trail? And if you are so concerned about associations and how the candidate might look when and if they reach the general election, well hell stop trying to remove the splinter from my eye, and start removing the log from yours. Clinton has so many lying surrogates, questionable associations, and so much scandalous & self-inflicted baggage that she is a shoe in to lose the GE, not win it!

[brush]

128. You are part of the problem. You assume because I criticized . . .

the Sanders campaign's choice of a well known Obama basher as a surrogate that I am a Hillary supporter.

You are wrong. I'm still undecided but many of you Sanders supporters are so insufferable it's becoming harder and harder to ignore all the bs to focus on what your candidate has to offer.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with his advisers being the ones who made the decision to bring on West.

Given that, I must say Bernie was not well served by his advisers in this instance. I do hope less tone deaf, better researched decisions are made in the future as those are important characteristics I look for in a candidate and a president.

[TM99]

136. Well, given how insufferable we Sanders supporters

are and how much concern is misplaced for him and his campaign, I am quite sure you will be a Clinton supporter.

You see an Obama basher. The rest of us see a fellow black man not afraid to call out a black man who used him and others like Rev. Wright to get elected on flowery progressive rhetoric, only to immediately pivot right in to his true governance stance - a moderate Republican or neoliberal New Dem.

And thanks for proving my point about personalities deciding your choice. You have a great evening.

[brush]

145. Say what you want about Obama but he accomplished . . .

quite a bit despite repug obstructionism from his first day in office.

If Bernie can do as much with the same opposition he is sure to get from the repugs he will be a successful president.

He has to get there first though and choosing an Obama hater to woo votes from a community that for the most part reveres Obama is not smart.

Answer me this. I keep asking why not another prominent AA supporter to partner with instead of someone with Obama-hating baggage?

No Sanders supporters seems to want to answer that.

[TM99]

148. We are going to disagree

on Obama's 'accomplishments' so this is neither the time or place to have that debate.

Did you even watch the video of West's introductory speech? Honestly, did you?

Because if you had, you would realize your 'Obama hater' bullshit wouldn't fly. West is a Democratic Socialist just like Sanders. They both agree that economic and social justice are two sides of the same coin. They can NOT be separated. West is a prominent BLM activist. He was writing and teaching about the issues needing address more concretely today decades ago. Long before Marissa Jones was old enough to even know that 'white supremacy' is a description of institutionalized & systemic racism and NOT a personal attack on white liberal allies, West was writing and teaching about that.

West and I disagree on the question of God. He is a solid Christian, and I am an ignostic pagan. But I met a man who for decades has preached inclusivity and justice for ALL not just brown and black skinned people. He sees and preaches about the lack of economic equality for the poor 'nigga' in Harlem as well as the poor 'redneck' in Appalachia. That is the same thing that Sanders campaigns on political. It would therefore be a natural fit.

Does this mean that West is his right hand man? Fuck no. Please it was ONE fucking speech! Will there be other prominent AA supporters that endorse and work with Sanders. Hell yes! Some of them should be doing it now but fuck 'em. They are scared of the DC and Clinton machine. But once her numbers get lower and lower and Sanders starts winning more and more state primaries, they will be there in droves.

So yes, I answered your question. You just won't like the answer and will dismiss it.

[brush]

164. That's all well and good. West is a brilliant man but . . .

he comes with the baggage of being an Obama hater.

All I am saying is, since no Dem candidate can win without the Obama coalition votes, in the
primaries or the general, what sense does it make to partner with someone who is despised by
a big part of the Obama coalition?

Wooing black votes is the issue not whether West is brilliant or a socialist who talks of
economic equality like Bernie. He's despised in the black community and him being associated
with the Sanders campaign could very well turn off the very voters Bernie needs to win.

I feel the pairing with West was not vetted well. If proper research had been done his unpopularity in the AA community would have been uncovered.

I chalk up this misstep as an "unforced error" by the Sanders campaign, just as using a private email server is an "unforced error" by Hillary Clinton.

[TM99]

165. Your last sentence I definitely disagree with.

It has not been objectively shown that West giving one introductory speech is an unforced error on the part of the Sanders campaign. Clinton's willful abuse of the system and avoiding playing by the rules on one hand and lying on the other is definitely a self inflicted wounds that shows objective negative consequences.

[LeftOfWest]

138. Clinton's advisors do not serve her well.

imo.

the racist ugliness from 2008 shines on.

[artislife]

120. Are they going on tour together?

I thought he just introduced him at a speech, but it sounds like he might be asked to be VP?

[Scootaloo]

143. We're already well aware of just how low other campaigns can stoop.

Had a wonderful demonstration of it back in 2008, after all.

[Scootaloo]

140. "This has nothing to do with Cornell West"

Are we reading the same thread?

[pnwmom]

18. Tell Cornel to stop slinging ugly, personal slurs at Obama. How about that?

[Bonobo]

21. He is describing a very relevant phenomena, albiet in an inflammatory way.

But then again, using inflammatory language is not at all inconsistent with activism.

[underthematrix]

29. Why cornel on check? He can say what he wants. The candidate

is supposed to have enough political saavy to know how that choice might play in the community he's trying to "reach" out to.

[pnwmom]

51. Exactly. No one would care what West says EXCEPT that Bernie has aligned with him. n/t

[underthematrix]

58. Well Bernie did align with him for a purpose. He's Bernie's guy.

Bernie could've aligned himself with Deray (BLM) who's going to be teaching at Yale. But he didn't

[Scootaloo]

146. And there it is. Thank you for your honesty, Pnwmom

Exactly. No one would care what West says EXCEPT that Bernie has aligned with him. n/t

You don't give a fuck what Cornell West said. Your problem is that he's standing next to Bernie.

[Luminous Animal]

67. Yeah. Obama should have run away from Rev. Wright sooner. (An Obama move, by the way,

that I thought was bullshit.)

[ancianita]

49. How about you give it up already. It was YEARS AGO. He's explained himself. Bernie and Obama get it

but you don't. Move ON, already.

[pnwmom]

53. Do you have evidence that Obama is fine with the continuing name calling? n/t

[ancianita]

59. Here: eight years of GOP namecalling. You think any criticism of a "brother" would faze him?

Then you don't know Obama.

[underthematrix]

94. This is about Obama's coalition, specifically the AA part.

i know the President doesn't give a shit but we the AA voters and we're not having it. We always have PBO's back. Always.

[ancianita]

99. So does Cornel, which is why he felt free to call out the president to live up to the struggle. I

got PBO's back, too. Was a full donor and canvassed in two states -- twice -- and flew workers from California to Ohio to help up to election night there. Get Christmas cards from the Obamas, too. Got invited to the inaugural, too, but couldn't afford the trip, and won't hold words against an AA intellectual for fussing. Which is all it was.

Veiled attacks on Sanders though West, I'm not having that.

[underthematrix]

61. I don't get it because I don't agree with you? President Obama is not

running. Bernie is running. And Cornel was his choice, a really stupid choice but his nonetheless.

[Scootaloo]

141. Well, that IS the running standard for "not getting it" around these parts

if it's good for one side of an argument, it's good for the ither side, too. don't you think?

[brush]

147. Ahhh. . . it wasn't just years ago

West continues with it.

[pnwmom]

15. +1000. n/t

[Juicy_Bellows]

10. Gift to right wing haters and bigots?

I wrote them off years ago. They're too daft to be aware of the quote or to look much into it. If the media plays it up the bigots and righties will be the only ones that get worked up over it. Perhaps Jack Meoffer will let Bill O'Reilly know!

[Truprogressive85]

20. is Dr. Cornel West white ?

Do you want to use the word ?
is that the issues ?

I'm pretty sure you had to spell it out in your head than add the asterisks in

[pnwmom]

31. I don't think it's any more acceptable for West to call Obama that

than to call him the N word.

Criticism of policies: fine, go for it.

Ugly, person attacks using racial language: not fine.

[Truprogressive85]

41. wait ?

Are you saying Dr. West is a racist

[pnwmom]

50. No, you said that. I said he used racially based slurs against the President.

That doesn't make him a racist himself; just someone using those words to get attention.

[Bonobo]

44. You are telling a black scholar and activist to tone down his rhetoric, we get it. nt

[frylock]

26. Cornel West apologists?

[pnwmom]

68. You have a problem with the dictionary definition of the word?

From dictionary.com

noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

[Ed Suspicious]

92. I think we, at least I, am not apologizing for anything he said. He's a smart man. He can say what

he wants without my approval.

[pnwmom]

103. That's not what the word apologist means. I gave the dictionary definition.

You could enlighten yourself.

[Ed Suspicious]

104. Thanks for the education.

"A person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial."

[pnwmom]

123. You're welcome.

I first learned the word in the context of "Christian apologetics." So I looked it up and found out it had nothing to do with apologizing for anything -- just defending something, with logical arguments.

[frylock]

95. Cornel West apologists it is, then.

I look forward to your next chapter in this saga.

[ancianita]

27. Nope. Not a gift. Pretty sure that if/when Bernie Sanders is nominated, and the GOP brings up

whole issue of his relationship with West, the candidates as well as the whole Republican party will be not only accused vociferously, for once, of being sympathetic to Obama, god forbid, but also guilty of a racist double standard of disallowing "freeee" speech to AA leaders.

If that doesn't shut them up, Obama will make an appearance at a Big Campaign Event and 'splain how free speech works and how it doesn't reflect on any racism or character flaw within the Democratic Party or AA's criticism of him.

It will be okay.

[brush]

101. Most likely repug PACs will run 24/7 ads "swiftboating" Sanders with . . .

the easily accessible clips of a Sanders surrogate, West< trashing the sitting Dem president with the vilest gutter language imaginable.

Think that'll go over well in getting Obama coalition votes?

I don't.

[arcane1]

36. Should we all live our lives in fear of what rightwing haters and bigots think?

[Cheese Sandwich]

39. Same reason why people riot and burn down a CVS in Baltimore. Why burn down your own neighborhood?

Nobody pays attention to your important issues until you do something radical.

It's like you don't exist.

Dr. West has sometimes said things that are not socially respectable.

Nobody listens otherwise.

He understood the cost. He knew he would be shunned by many in the Black community for insulting Obama.

Just like some have called Noam Chomsky a self-hating Jew for criticizing Israel.

Yeah it's unfortunate Dr. West insulted the president but he knew the cost, and he sacrificed his own respectability to get attention for his cause.

[Luminous Animal]

42. We've spent decades, politically, fretting over what the Republicans would make of our actions and

words. I've said it on this board before and I've said it in real life… I don't give a flying fuck what bigots will say or do. Progressives and Dems have cowered and silenced themselves too long under the bloviating bullying of the likes of Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Savage, and a host of other bigots.

It is the likes of them that compelled Obama to fire Van Jones, a black man, and to repudiate his pastor, a black man. Shirley Sherrod, a black woman, fired. Jocelyn Elders, a black woman, forced to step down. It was the clamoring of bigots and the weakness liberals that allowed bigotry to prevail.

Enough is enough.

[azmom]

62. Racists and Bigots in both the republican Party and

The Democratic Party, hate Obama, West, and Sanders. They hate Obama and West for being black and they hate Sanders for being a socialist Jew.

If they are loving anything, it is the fact that we are all fighting against each other instead of coming together to fight against a racist and oppressive system.

[ancianita]

76. Thank you. Any other AA leader who isn't picture perfect would get the same harsh treatment.

[AgingAmerican]

66. you lost me at 'gift to rightwing haters and bigots'

Is that the only thing you have against Cornel West saying it? That he was giving 'ammo' to the gop?

[mhatrw]

85. If you agree with West on every issue he differs from Obama on, then what is all the bile about?

WAAAAAAHHHH, he was a meanie-pants to Obama!!!! WAAAAAAHHHH, he was racist (lol) to Obama!!!!!!

What are you going to cry about next, AA rappers using "nigga" in their lyrics?

Come on. Obama disappointed all progressives. He would not deny that if he were sitting with us right now. And Obama would also defend West's right to criticize a sitting POTUS in harsh language. So what's the problem? Presidents are public figures, not sacred cows. West did not betray Obama any more than Obama betrayed the legion of AA progressives who helped elect him.

[pnwmom]

88. How do you know Obama would defend the use of the word "n***ized" against anyone? n/t

[mhatrw]

89. you crazy!

[Ed Suspicious]

100. You do realize that "***" is really quite childish and doesn't change the meaning of the word? You

are supposedly quoting the man. I guess you're misquoting the man. You've given the words of another man so much power you can't even bear to type them lest. . . Shit - I don't really know what might happen if you spelled it like he said it.

[pnwmom]

102. I'm not misquoting him, as you could find out with a simple google search.

As a white person, I'd rather err on the considerate side so as not to offend African Americans -- even if people like you think that makes me "quite childish."

[noiretextatique]

93. no eom

[JackInGreen]

115. I was told I oughtent whitesplain to black activists

I'm not going to start with Dr.West.
fereal.

[ljm2002]

124. I didn't like that turn of phrase...

...at all when West used it. That said, he's an academic, and they sometimes use incendiary language in order to make a point. It reminds me of BLM using the term "white supremacists" in Seattle -- apparently the phrase is commonly used in academic discussions of racism in our society, but many of us found it offensive at the time. It also reminds me of Ward Churchill's use of the term "little Eichmanns" after 9/11. While at one level I got his point, at another level I found it deeply offensive -- just like West's remarks about Obama. But I don't think West's language w.r.t. Obama means he must be ostracized from polite society, which seems to be the position of some here.

While I wish he would apologize for the wording he used, that doesn't seem likely. So we're left with a prominent black academic who has made some questionable remarks, and who likes Bernie Sanders. Who would be a better black person for Bernie to have on his side? Reverend Wright? How about Al Sharpton? They both have used some pretty questionable rhetoric from time to time too. Of course, Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright once their association became controversial, so maybe Bernie should learn from that and run from Dr. West.

[beam me up scottie]

144. Is this your new hobby? Besides counting black faces in crowds I mean.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=590766

Since when does anyone on DU have to answer to you?

Give it a rest, you're not fooling anyone with this tripe.

And get off your high horse, after the way you talked about transgender women you don't deserve to be up there.

[Capt. Obvious]

167. "I don't understand the question."

[beam me up scottie]

169. :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=593708

[Jappleseed]

151. He used the word not me.

No need to apologize or cast aside yet another black person Hillary does not agree with. Hillary and her attacks on blacks must stop.

[Gothmog]

155. I would not hold my breath on this

[Bluenorthwest]

157. Are you not a white, straight person who promotes religious clergy who call LGBT rights Satan's idea

and teach that we are 'inherently disordered'? Yes, you are such a white straight person. You not only associate yourself with such vile hateful speech, you promote the purveyor of that speech as a great man to be emulated and you attack anyone who dares object to the denigration of our families.

Stunningly massive hypocrisy. The fact is that you have a whole different standard for LGBT when attacked by persons you like.

Cake and eat it too.

[aikoaiko]

158. Is there any evidence that RWers used West's words as you suggest?

Last edited Tue Sep 15, 2015, 09:34 AM - Edit history (1)

[Prism]

163. We need to hand out Approved Minorities badges

So I can easily see which minority's views are acceptable and which are not. It's dizzying trying to figure out which black person's opinion I'm supposed to accept as the prevailing acceptable view, which woman's, which gay person's, etc.

I suspect earners of the sticker will be whatever's helpful to Clinton.

But I think we should hand out badges, just in case.

Oh oh, maybe we can even get special avatars! And then we don't even have to read someone's words. We can just look at the picture and nod sagely, secure in the knowledge, "Yes, this is the minority voice I may recognize as the One True Opinion."

No thinking necessary.

[beam me up scottie]

168. .

?quality=0.8

[Chitown Kev]

174. I'd actually rather you read as many of them as you can.

Then you don't have to pick and choose, you will understand your stuff...makes for good reading, as well.


Unbelievable.

[Prism]

175. I never pick and choose

Many around here, however . . .

Although, I suspect you'll discover that soon enough.

[Chitown Kev]

179. Then we have something in common :)

On Dr. West alone, I've been reading him for...what, 23 years now (although not much lately; "issues" cropped up). I can discuss West in multiple contexts.

Much of that black intellgensia crew of the 90's...I'm pretty versed in as well as much of the past and a little of the present.

African American intellectual thought is very diverse and very conflicted, as Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote.

[Prism]

182. I like "old" Cornel West

I've read a lot of his work and even saw him speak in Berkeley about five years ago. However, I haven't been thrilled about his shift in tone over the course of the Obama administration. It feels counterproductive and alienating. Even when I agree with the context of his remarks, it's always like, "Seriously? You, a man of your education, couldn't find a more politic way to phrase that?" As someone who likes Sanders, I have mixed feelings about West joining the campaign.

Coates, however, is a national treasure right now. I've enjoyed him since he first started at the Atlantic (I found him via Andrew Sullivan, who I like decidedly less).

[Chitown Kev]

183. Yeah, after "Race Matters"

and especially after he was in The Matrix it seemed as if he lost his way, with regards to written philosophy (although I have praised his bringing philosophy to the streets)

[Peacetrain]

171. Nope .. unfortunately.. some agree with with Cornel West..

in his attacks on President Obama on this board.. sad but true

[HooptieWagon]

176. Why should I apologize for Dr West?

He is entitled to his opinion, and as a highly intelligent academic he probably selected his language knowing full well the effect was intended to shake his audience from complacency.

[Doctor_J]

177. I haven't seen any apologies for prof west

[hifiguy]

185. I am white and it is NOT my word to use or comment upon.

Nor is it my place to tell a black professor when and if or how he should use it.

I can't bring myself to be that presumptuous.