2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBREAKING: Hillary Clinton says she opposes construction of Keystone XL oil pipeline

https://twitter.com/AP/status/646420477137784832
So principled, it only took her 2 years to form this position...

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/646422073645092864
"Finally"... "Opposition"... Well said Bernie!

https://twitter.com/danmericaCNN/status/646422292524855299
I like a man who doesn't mince his words! Well said Martin!
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)would side with them. In fact, they said the same about Obama.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)If you were against the pipeline, like most liberals, prior to today then you already have an answer why she's late.
George II
(67,782 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)japple
(10,459 posts)from SmirkingChimp.
and
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)elected.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....to protect gun manufacturers.
Or when he said he was against the war yet voted to fund it a number of times.
Or when he said he was against mass incarceration but voted in favor of increased penalties and private prisons.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)It's been explained ad ad nauseam.. Are we going to sue hammer manufactures if someone hits somebody over the head and kills them?
Sanders announced a plan to end private prisons what was the bill that increased private prisons. Didn't happen unless some republican added a rider to a bill he voted for.
He might've voted for a budget that included war spending..
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Nice try though, but it's your candidate who's being called out for being inconsistent today.
randys1
(16,286 posts)You see that is why I dont believe for a SECOND they are who they say they are.
Now for the bad news, that she is coming out against it now probably means Obama's team is gonna OK it and this way she can go on record against it with no risk.
EVEN With that I am still WAY happier Obama is president than any righty and the same goes for Hillary if Bernie cant win
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Or, one could acknowledge the right thing was done by Clinton and retain some credibility.
Decisions, decisions...
randys1
(16,286 posts)something we dont.
If Obama's administration approves Keystone, I am gonna REALLY be pissed.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)HE vetoed forcing it
Capn Sunshine
(14,378 posts)Is the reason Hillary could not comment until now was that she was a former member of the cabinet and was embargoed from comment on an ongoing negotiation of the executive. That she did means she got clearance from the Obama Administration to make a public comment on her long-held belief.
George II
(67,782 posts)Let's see how that gets spun around here.
Capn Sunshine
(14,378 posts)DUers are a resilient and varied breed of online lunatics, combined with some RW trolls in sock puppet form, and of course a core of thoughtful and decent progressive voices.
So I'll just leave this info here.
Uncle Joe
(64,297 posts)Profiles in Courage this aint. As Hillary Clinton points out when asked directly whether she would approve the Keystone Pipeline, the proposal for this project came to State in 2009, which meant that Hillary had almost four years to deal with the issues. Under her tenure as Secretary, the State Department concluded that there would only be a limited environmental impact from Keystone, later demanding (and getting) a route change to lessen even that risk.
So where does Hillary stand on this? After six years, she wont tell you unless you make her President:
Q: As President, would you sign a bill yes or no, please in favor of allowing the Keystone XL Pipeline?
HC: Well, as you know, I was the Secretary of State who started that process. I was the one who put into place the investigation. I have now passed it off, as obvious because Im no longer there, to Secretary Kerry. This is President Obamas decision, and I am not going second-guess him, because I was in a position to set this in motion, and I do not think that would be the right thing to do. So I want to wait to see what he and Secretary Kerry decide. If its undecided when I become President, I will answer your question!
http://hotair.com/archives/2015/07/28/hillary-on-keystone-youll-have-to-wait-for-my-election-to-get-my-position/
So that begs the question, what happened since the end of July to prompt Hillary to make her decision now instead of waiting to be elected President first?
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Uncle Joe
(64,297 posts)1. Bernie pulled ahead in the New Hampshire Presidential Primary polls beginning about August the 10th.
2. Bernie pulled ahead or at the very least became competitive in the Iowa caucuses about Sept. 10th.
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-new-hampshire-presidential-democratic-caucus
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/09/qpoll-iowa-213462
As for President Obama's potential support, I would feel the same way as you but he's not running for reelection and has less to lose by supporting it today.
If he wanted to politically aid Hillary by "giving her a reason for opposing it now" when she had stated that she wouldn't disclose until after being elected that would be one way to do it, no matter the sincerity of Obama's beliefs regarding the Keystone Pipeline.
If Hillary truly opposed the Keystone Pipeline, nothing prevented her from stating so when the young lady asked the question on July 30th. The Republicans control the Congress and with Obama's support the Keystone pipeline would have no problem becoming approved.
So at this point there is no logical way to determine a potential Obama position as to whether it truly affected Hillary's position on this issue or whether it's just political calculation.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... Obama (now Hillary) from doing the evil thing they were absolutely positively going to do.
Rather funny stuff.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Capn Sunshine
(14,378 posts)I'd have a lot better position on right now in the DOW futures and VIX.
ish of the hammer
(444 posts)fake left, run right
ram2008
(1,238 posts)I'm a Bernie supporter, but glad she's starting to start staking out some positions and is starting to get out there in the field. Credit where its due.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Aside from that, I much prefer a leader who is able to adapt to today and "evolve" (your word, not mine!) than someone stuck in the '60s.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)If you consider that being "stuck in the '60's" that explains why you support the moderate candidate.
And you're right - this is about Keystone, so why did she suddenly change her mind?
The Clinton camp doubled down soon after, with a spokeswoman saying: "...Given her former role as Sec state and having been part of the Keystone process, she believes that weighing in now could be disruptive to the process and not responsible to do. She is just in a different situation than other candidates."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/29/the-6-big-issues-where-we-still-dont-know-where-hillary-clinton-stands/
George II
(67,782 posts)When was she in favor of the pipeline?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And you're the one who made a snide comment about Bernie being a politician:
To which I replied "Except his message has been consistent while Hillary has been "evolving" her whole career."
So, again, I simply reminded you that Bernie is consistent in his message.
Clear?
George II
(67,782 posts)...Sanders is a politician.
You said that Hillary Clinton has been "evolving" her whole career. She came out against the pipeline today. If that is an "evolution" then you're saying that she was in favor of it.
Now you're playing word games to cover your tracks. It didn't work.
'bye....
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She said she was inclined to support it, claimed she wouldn't tell us how she felt until she was elected and then evolved to her present position.
You're the one trying to cover your tracks by lying about what I posted.
George II
(67,782 posts)..Obama's decision was before announcing her opinion (showing loyalty to the person she worked for for four years). But she also said that she wouldn't wait forever, which she didn't.
Now go find contradictory anecdotal quotes to "prove" me and Clinton wrong.
PS - I never "lied" about what you posted, but now you're just "evolving" on what you said.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm not taking your bait, I never claimed she supported it, that was your straw man, now you enjoy him.
Duval
(4,280 posts)Best. Graphic. Ever.
DhhD
(4,695 posts)National Petroleum Industry while blowing south.
marym625
(17,997 posts)She really, really, really wants to be President.
I'm not buying what she's selling.
840high
(17,196 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)zappaman
(20,627 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... that they were sure she was going to do.
She was hell bent on making XL happen .... but they stopped her!!!!!!
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)I had little doubt Clinton would go exactly as Obama has gone, and the criticism Clinton has and is and will be getting is EXACTLY the same as Obama on Keystone.
Look up the history.
Exactly the same.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)They are funny though.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Saudi Arabia is flooding the world with oil, and they don't mean to stop until tar sands and fracking are not economically viable activities. My understanding is that we are very close to this point now. So I don't believe either of them want their names attached to this giant waste of money. And if so, good for them, no matter their reasons.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It costs more to extract and refine tar sands oil than the current price of oil. That has been the case for around a year now.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Glowing new skin but in the end, nothing's changed underneath.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Bounzer
(41 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)"So as I say, we've not yet signed off on it. But we are inclined to do so and we are for several reasons going back to one of your original questions we're either going to be dependent on dirty oil from the Gulf or dirty oil from Canada. And until we can get our act together as a country and figure out that clean, renewable energy is in both our economic interests and the interests of our planet, I mean, I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone how deeply disappointed the President and I are about our inability to get the kind of legislation through the Senate that the United States was seeking."
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/CampaignsElections/a/Hillary-Clinton-On-The-Keystone-Xl-Pipeline.htm
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I love it when that happens.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Hope she sticks with it.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Did I miss any?
merrily
(45,251 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)knr
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)As a general aside: The O/M clipped quote re-tweet is.......a clipped quote and not worthy of response.
cali
(114,904 posts)oppose it until the president announced his decision. I was told that I just didn't understand loyalty to one's boss or former boss, when I pointed out he was no longer her boss.
More special hilly political calculation/expediency.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)the adult response.
ibegurpard
(17,077 posts)Jesus...
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)This is what Secretary Clinton needs to do, take actual stands and give real answers. Bravo.
More of this, less "market-focused rebranding opportunities", please.
ibegurpard
(17,077 posts)And maybe people will start to trust her if she takes those positions and defends them!
arcane1
(38,613 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)We'll see where she stands on that (maybe).
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)her husbands support of nafta and her corporate ties....i will be stunned if she comes out against tpp
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)That one passed like a hard stool
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Now they have no choice but to follow her "lead."
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)it is predictable...
Response to Catherina (Original post)
Proud Public Servant This message was self-deleted by its author.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)MerryBlooms
(12,163 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)her big oil donors happy. this has gotta mean ? that she has spoken with the president.
still should have had the guts to put it out there before knowing what everyone would think.
go ahead, call me a basher. but i am with martin, she is a follower not a leader.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)On issue after issuemarriage equality, drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants, children fleeing violence in Central America, the Syrian refugee crisis, and now the Keystone Pipeline, Secretary Clinton has followednot forgedpublic opinion, he said in a statement. Leadership is about stating where you stand on critical issues, regardless of how they poll or focus group.
http://time.com/4045344/hillary-clinton-keystone-pipeline-decision/
Catherina
(35,568 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I wonder if the pope coming to town has anything to do with her sudden decision to become so concerned about this she had to speak up.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)I am supporting Bernie, for now, but could see myself supporting Martin.
I just don't want Clinton or Biden.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)progressoid
(52,630 posts)
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Renew Deal
(84,709 posts)"I like a man who doesn't mince his words! Well said Martin!"
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's so hard to tell these days.
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #57)
Agschmid This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I love your pictures but the girl was awesome.
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #68)
Agschmid This message was self-deleted by its author.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I try not to hate bigots but people like that make it difficult.
quickesst
(6,309 posts)...like every thread that has the name Hillary Clinton in it is like Groundhog Day. Full of the same petty, and juvenile attacks on her, with one trying to outdo the other in what they somehow perceive as being clever. Admittedly, I might have found some of them so when I was in junior high........and if I found it amusing to smear and belittle another human being who was the recipient of such nonsense.
Response to quickesst (Reply #56)
Agschmid This message was self-deleted by its author.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)What would make you think there's hatred directed towards her?
Is it comments like "It's like watching a snake change it's skin. Glowing new skin but in the end, nothing's changed underneath. ".
Some people are too sensitive!
quickesst
(6,309 posts)...and no matter how many claims some folks make, there is nothing said about Bernie that reaches this level and repetition. I have my moments, but they are all in defense of Hillary who does not deserve the nasty rhetoric aimed at her. I want her to be the next president of the United States, but if Bernie gets the nod, I want no part in hurting his chances in the general. Personally, I would be ashamed if my words helped to dissuade anyone from voting for the democratic nominee whoever it may be. And thank you for your reply.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Keystone because I heard her say she sould not interject herself into a process that was up to the President and current Sec of State. It is not a criticism. I'm just surprised that's all.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)It's a wink wink nudge nudge opposition.
She's gotten some indication that Obama is going to approve the f@#%ing thing. Now the heats off her and she can come out against it without pissing off her oily buddies. Or else she has heard that because of the depressed price of oil, a decision has been made not to build the pipeline anyway.
She isn't doing this because she has suddenly grown a spine. She knows something we don't.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)Or she would have come out against it a long time ago. She received some information we peons aren't allowed to know about yet.
840high
(17,196 posts)wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)but do ya mean it :

in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)Love O'Malley 's comment on it. He has her pegged and Bernie is just kind, gentlemanly Bernie.
ismnotwasm
(42,663 posts)Doesn't it feel good?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Interesting that Clinton talks and the other candidates have to respond. Doesn't work the other way around.
While I don't completely agree with O'Malleys comment completely, that is how it's done. Really happy to see some actuall aggressive campaigning and differentiation directly from a candidate on our side.
askew
(1,464 posts)She has flip-flopped on so many issues so often that the media can't even track it any longer.
This is what tripped Obama up in the first debate with Romney. He basically lied his way through the entire debate and Obama wasn't prepared for that. I hope Bernie and Martin are prepared for Hillary to lie about every position she's ever held in her career.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)She's flip-flopped or "evolved" on so many issues I don't know what she truly believes anymore. She just comes off to me as someone who is willing to spout any position she needs to in order to win.
Who knows what her position will be once elected.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)Can't let those numbers drop! Seriously, she won't take a stand on any issue unless it's pre-approved and politically convenient. Typical politician.
jkbRN
(850 posts)She has already done too much damage throughout the world for me to vote for her in the primaries.
I am so tired of her flip-flopping on things when she has played a huge part in shutting down marriage equality, voting for the war in Iraq, and helping to speed up climate change.
Source: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron
DonCoquixote
(13,944 posts)I was afraid the oil companies were just waiting till Obama was out, but frankly, I do not care why she did this, she did it, and credit and salutes are due.
yardwork
(68,987 posts)CanadaexPat
(496 posts)And then just days ago she out the WH on notice that they didn't have long to decide before she would make her position known. This was a very jerky-jerky, off-the-cuff development, driven by her poor campaigning skills. Definitely not a big-league campaign organization or candidate.
CanadaexPat
(496 posts)On drugs today also, that was relaxation to current headlines.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)What beats me is how people put a lot of weight
on something a candidate says, when his/her
campaign is getting serious competition. She
watches. If her opponents' stand shows success,
she will join and declare it her own hard considered
position, because she knows that the MSM will
put it out all over.
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)XL Keystone has been replaced by Enbridge main line and Alberta Clipper.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Fearless
(18,458 posts)So she makes both sides happy. Sort of.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)The you'll find out if I'm telling the truth policy when I'm President..
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Omaha Steve
(108,491 posts)Is TPP next?
Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #110)
Agschmid This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)ion_theory
(235 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)And where and when Camp Weathervane stops, no one really knows!
Oh! Look!
She's "evolved"!
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Remember this?
Progressive Group Wants Hillary Clinton To Give Back Foundation Funding Over Keystone
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/06/hillary-clinton-keystone-xl_n_6817756.html
Clinton, a likely 2016 Democratic presidential contender, is the subject of a new petition from CREDO Action, a liberal group that organizes online campaigns. CREDO is pressuring Clinton to give back money that the Clinton Foundation has accepted from foreign governments for its philanthropic work.
Both the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post have recently reported on the foundation's acceptance of millions of dollars from seven different foreign countries, including nations like the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Oman.
Credo is most upset about a donation from Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, a government office that has been promoting the construction of the Keystone XL pipeline. The Canadian company TransCanada is seeking to build the pipeline from Alberta's oil sands to carry oil to refineries in Texas. The office gave between between $250,000 and $500,000 to the foundation, according to the Wall Street Journal's review of the foundation's disclosures.
"Taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Canadian agency responsible for promoting Keystone XL is a stunning conflict of interest," Elijah Zarlin, senior campaign manager at CREDO, said in a statement. "If Secretary Clinton wants the trust of the American people she needs to immediately return all contributions the Clinton Foundation has received from Canada and other foreign governments."
A spokesman for the Clinton Foundation told the Wall Street Journal that the donation originated from a different office within the agency -- not the one tasked with promoting the pipeline.
The consideration of whether to grant the pipeline a permit began during Clinton's time as secretary of state. Because it crosses an international border, the Department of State has been the lead agency in the permit process. In 2010, Clinton remarked that the department was "inclined to" sign off on the pipeline, which prompted outrage from environmental groups that accused her of being biased in favor of the project. But the agency's approval process has continued well beyond Clinton's time in office, to the great annoyance of the pipeline's congressional supporters.
Hillary Clinton has generally declined to comment on whether the Keystone XL pipeline should be constructed, avoiding the topic whenever possible.
A Clinton Foundation spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Good times!
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)MineralMan
(150,685 posts)It's an issue with evidence on both sides. Now, she's made a decision. Not everything is cut and dried, and this pipeline is one example. I've been on both sides of the issue, myself, and still am in some ways. Not an easy choice at all.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I'm more interested in her take on the TPP.
Hillary lately has an opinion on things that have been already decided.
I guess that bad Iraq War vote has made her a little hesitant to voice an opinion on things that still matter.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)so there's no political skin off her teeth in opposing it.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)WTG Hillary!