Hillary Is No Gay Icon

[Prism]

Interesting, somewhat lengthy article about Clinton's complicated relationship with the LGBT community. In my experience in San Francisco, the community seems pretty split. I think, a year ago, most people were pro-Clinton and assumed she was It. But with the rise of Sanders, opinions have grown very varied very rapidly. Anyway, enjoy.

Gay men love Hillary Clinton. If only she felt the same way in return.

Hillary, it’s now been reported, was not “comfortable around gay people who were kind of acting out, or pushing her to the limit. She did have general discomfort.” Those are the words of none other than Bill Clinton as related by Taylor Branch, a close friend who recorded dozens of interviews with the former president throughout the 1990s. Although Clinton kept the cassettes, Branch recounted the conversations into a tape player immediately after each interview. Alana Goodman of the Washington Free Beacon recently unearthed the recordings.

According to Bill Clinton, who admitted to having “much more contact in my life with gay people than Hillary has,” the former First Lady had a “general discomfort” with gay-rights issues and was “really a little put off by some of this stuff.”

Perhaps that’s one reason why it took her until 2013 to publicly back gay marriage. And perhaps this helps explain why, during her husband’s administration, she didn’t speak out against the travel ban on people with HIV, the Defense of Marriage Act, or the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, all of which he signed into law.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/23/hillary-is-no-gay-icon.html

[DonCoquixote]

1. ok, watch out

You realize that there are some that insisted that Hillary was the only one for them, and that anyone speaking against her was a bigot. I still remember the DU war of 2008.

[Prism]

7. March 2013

The month she finally approved of gay marriage. Even after a President facing a re-election campaign managed it.

There's just nothing anyone can say to me convincingly about that.

[merrily]

23. +1

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

27. Unforgivable...Hillary leading again from behind.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[m-lekktor]

2. This was posted earlier and others convinced the person to delete it.

I am glad you reposted it.

[Prism]

4. Ah, I didn't see that

I just found this on a liberal LGBT forum and thought it was interesting.

Though, the author is catty to the extreme.

And his thoughts on bottoming left me wondering about his unfortunate past boyfriends.

I just enjoyed him highlighting diva culture, the elevation of a wronged woman, etc. They're common phenomena in our community, and I see/read someone applying them to Hillary nearly every single day.

[m-lekktor]

9. yeah, i used to always remark to others her gay support was diva culture etc. carryover

especially when my fellow lgbters who strongly support her that i encounter only discuss their/our personal rights when it came to politics and are low info on all the other issues. I related to that. I get so tired of the stereotype that we all adore her when i cannot fucking STAND either her or her husband so i will "recommend" or like anything gay critical of her even if there is some over the top stuff mentioned.

[Maedhros]

54. Yes, I found the tone of the piece a bit too sharp. [n/t]

[JI7]

3. i think her support and popularity among gays is similar to what she has with the black community

it's not that they think she has been a great fighter for their cause .

it's more about a personal connection they feel and have with her.

even on DU many of her strongest supporters from come these groups.

[Prism]

6. I agree

I can't speak for the black community, but in the LGBT one, there's definitely a personal connection and identity with her wrapped up in how gay culture often lifts up embattled heterosexual women.

But the forum I found this on - populated by mostly liberal LGBTers - is very evenly split between Sanders and Clinton at the moment.

[Chitown Kev]

38. I CAN speak on both communities...not ncessarily for them

and know that there is a general truth to this.

[Prism]

41. How do black gay men feel about her generally, in your experience?

My black male friends (mainly Oakland based) seem fairly apolitical about the national election. They're more about local social justice matters with police and housing issues. When they speak about national politics, they'll discuss BLM and related stories. I haven't heard too much about Clinton or Sanders from them in either direction. One friend was disapproving of both Sanders in Seattle and Clinton in the video that was released, but not too much to say since.

[Chitown Kev]

47. This goes back to 2008, so let me start there

Black gays and lesbians were much more divided than the black straight community about Hillary v. Obama then...I would say they were about evenly divided. Some of us saw the inroads that Obama was making within other parts black church community outside of Trinity and didn't trust Obama for that reason (and, yes, I do black gays and lesbians that go to Trinity) in spite of the fact that Obama ALSO said things about LGBT rights in some black churches (let me note here that there are quite a few pro-LGBT black churches in Chicago).

Since Obama has been president, we are very very very pleased and happy with Obama's actions (as all LGBT's should be...esp. when he came out and supported SSM with Robin Roberts...and many of us took note that it WAS Robin Roberts)

Now...Hillary is what she is...as far as Hillary v. Sanders...those who know Sanders seem to be divided 50-50 others...I don't know...but Hillary does not make any of us swoon, that I do know.

[Prism]

48. Thanks for relaying that

That's a bit why I didn't get quite so worked up about Obama's outreach to conservative black churches during the primary campaign. While the McClurkin business was alarming, I also knew his history in South Side politics and the black religious community there (I'm born and raised South Side Irish and became familiar with Obama during his primary with Bobby Rush).

As an aside, it was really interesting watching how black churches on the South Side grappled with gay marriage in Illinois. After Prop 8 in California, the social conservatism of a segment of religious black supporters of Obama came in for endless hashing, but then you had people like Otis Moss and Bernard Jakes throwing themselves out there. Things aren't always as clean as people want them to be.

[Chitown Kev]

53. Exactly.

I mean, no, I didn't like that Obama cozied up even more to that loathsome toad, James Meeks...

one thing that not a lot of people understood about IL specifically as that when we had both the CU vote and the abandoned first gay marriage vote, polls showed that a majority of blacks in Illinois supported marriage equality...the trouble had less to do with Chicago and more to do with Congressmen (black and white) outside the Chicago area (esp. downstate)

[m-lekktor]

10. many of my older gay friends really adore her

and they are taken aback when some of the rest of us don't feel the same! she is very very popular in the LGBT community that I experience. there is no doubt about that.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. Has she "evolved" in very recent years, or is this just more political expediency?

I ask, because what she claims to be true sometimes just isn't.

[Prism]

8. It's impossible for her not to have evolved

When a Democratic President announces support in the middle of a re-election campaign, any national Democrat with presidential aspirations had to follow suit.

I can't say what she does or doesn't honestly think about LGBTers. Or any issue for that matter. It's part of her marketing genius.

[JI7]

11. what's the marketing part ?

because it's not as if she herself or even they believe that she was leading efforts on their own rights.

i do think many of them view her lack of support as having been more political strategy to win rather than her own personal views.

[Ed Suspicious]

26. That's an interesting take that for some reason hadn't crossed my mind - that she is more open to

lgbtq issues than she lets on because . . . politics. I always assumed that any pretense flowed the other way in that she would throw your community a bone now and again in order to placate. I guess in a weird sort of way that would explain the loyalty she enjoys that I felt clearly she did not deserve.

[Prism]

42. I think she's trying to co-opt Obama's "blank screen" tactic

Saying just enough to appease people without coming down very hard in either direction. That way, people can project what they want onto her. The problem is, Obama was fairly little known without much of a trail outside of Illinois legislature and two years in the Senate. It doesn't work nearly as well for a politician with a record and very famous career in the public eye for decades.

[ruggerson]

14. Prism!

I remember reading an interesting article about a gay couple that moved next door to her parents. Surprisingly, the two couples became friends and then cemented their relationship when Hillary's father became terminally ill and the gay couple were there for him as caregivers.

Change happens. One family at a time.

[Prism]

32. Ruggerson!

I was just thinking about you the other day and had wondered where you'd gone!

That's interesting. I'd never heard that story before. I will google this thing =)

[ruggerson]

56. Here you go

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/05/20/proud-to-again-support-hillary-clinton/

[msongs]

12. sort of like a gay Drudge Report only with more stereotyping and meowing nt

[McCamy Taylor]

13. Yes, she is. I offer into evidence "Chelsea's Mom."

On the other hand, being a gay icon does not necessarily make one POTUS material. Joan Crawford. Marilyn Monroe. Judy Garland. Great performers but not presidential material.

[m-lekktor]

16. those guys are gay? how can you tell?

I admit i couldnt sit through that whole cheesy/ hideous mess so maybe it was something in the lyrics that told you they were?

[JI7]

17. i believe they are an openly gay musical group

[m-lekktor]

19. thanks!

they sound 90's boy bandish and I recoil at that style.

[gvstn]

20. That's great, I had never seen it!

[riversedge]

52. I listen to it now and then. It is very upbeat.

[gvstn]

57. Te original song always cracked me up.

Stacy, do you remember when I mowed your lawn,
(Mowed your lawn)
Your mom came out with just a towel oh-oh-oh-oh-on,
(Towel on)
I could tell she liked me from the way she stared,
(Way she stared)
And the way she said, "You missed a spot over ther-re-re-re-ree,"
(Spot over there)

Read more: Fountains Of Wayne - Stacy's Mom Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[Ken Burch]

59. If Joan Crawford was president, her first act would be to nuke Bette Davis. n/t.

[Betty Karlson]

15. She is an ally at last - and that's a good thing

She was a bigot until 2013 - and that's a bad thing.

She's no icon - and being an ally really is enough.

[cprise]

18. She's a member of The Family

Might as well be The Family Research Council.

[m-lekktor]

21. LOL

[pinebox]

22. Ahh good times XD

One can never forget these stellar Hillary highlights from her greatest hits!

Chris Matthews: "Do you think NY should recognize gay marriage?"
Hillary: No.

Case closed.

[merrily]

24. She made a speech against gay marriage on the Senate floor (much as she

made one for invading Iraq), but I don't remember the year.

[jfern]

25. Hillary waited until after SSM had 58% support to stop opposing it

58% support
36% oppose

Poll is March 7-10, 2013
http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/03/18/National-Politics/Polling/question_10009.xml?uuid=qPNlgI_1EeKRc3-Hzac7SQ

March 18, 2013, Hillary stops opposing it, and starts supporting it.

That's not leadership. That's typical Clintonian wet finger, stick hand up in air, and see which way the wind is blowing.

[DemocraticWing]

28. I think it's pretty even

I definitely think Bernie leads with LGBT Millennials right now, and the Reuters poll indicates that he leads with all LGBT people. I have heard a lot of pro-Hillary support, but it's declined a lot, and recently a lot of LGBT people have said things like "I like Hillary, but Bernie has my attention."

[Catherina]

29. Grindr users back Bernie Sanders for president 'LGBTQ voters reject simplistic "identity politics"

Originally posted in the Bernie Sanders group http://www.democraticunderground.com/128054524

Survey: Grindr users back Bernie Sanders for president
'LGBTQ voters reject simplistic "identity politics" and vote on much broader issues'


51% of Grindr users chose Bernie Sanders for the Democrat nomination

24 September 2015
by Darren Wee

...

Users of the gay hookup app are ‘highly engaged’ in both national and local politics, according to a new poll.

Of the 1,718 respondents, 76% say they vote in both general and presidential elections, with 64% indicating that ‘culture wars’ over LGBTI issues motivate them to vote in non-presidential elections.

More than half identified as Democrat (51%), among whom Bernie Sanders edged out Hillary Clinton 38% to 35% for the nomination.

Only 15% identifited as Republican with Donald Trump comfortably ahead of the other hopefuls with 21% of the vote. John Kasich and Jeb Bush followed next each with 7%, while Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina were both at the 5%, with the 10 others in the crowded field trailing behind.

‘LGBTQ voters reject simplistic “identity politics” and vote on much broader issues affecting them AND their fellow Americans,’ Grindr’s blog noted.

Half of all Grindr voters chose the economy as the ‘biggest issue’ facing America today. Other leading issues included immigration (10.3%) and healthcare (9.8%); while ‘minority rights’ outpolled ‘LGBT rights’ 9% to 3%, suggesting users take a holistic view of rights issues.

...

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/survey-grindr-users-back-bernie-sanders-for-president

This is who Grindr users want to be President

Nick Duffy
23rd September 2015, 7:32 PM


Grindr users no longer back Hillary

Users of gay hook-up app Grindr users have backed a candidate to be the next US President – and it’s not Hillary Clinton.

...

As her lead with the public at large ebbs away, the politician has also been edged out in the app’s latest poll of 1,718 users across the US.

Of the app’s user sample – which is larger than some actual polls – just over half identified as Democrats, 19 percent as Independents, and 15 percent Republicans.

Clinton received the backing of just 35 percent of Democratic Grindr users, pipped by Democratic rival Bernie Sanders, on 38 percent.



Sanders took the largest share of the app’s users of any candidate from any party.

...

Overall, users of the app were incredibly engaged in politics, with an astonishing 76% saying they vote in both general and presidential elections.

Just 3% of users believe LGBT rights is the most important issue, however – with the economy, immigration and healthcare ranked as far more important.

...

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/09/23/this-is-who-grindr-users-want-to-be-president/

SO MUCH FOR "ALL YOUR VOTES BELONG TO ME".

[Metric System]

30. Hardly a scientific poll. Plus it's insulting to assume Grindr users represent the LGBTQ community,

especially considering the app is not used by women.

[Prism]

34. This is hilarious and awesome

I'm just imagining who they sent in to gather political opinions from a bunch of men looking for an anonymous poke. I hadn't seen this before, so thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I don't think Clinton has that lock on LGBTers many of her supporters assume.

I think what people don't realize is that much of what passes for gay culture and politics in mainstream media in society is actually propagated by wealthier white gay males. That's how we end up in situations where the Human Rights Campaign embarrassingly misread what the community was thinking and feeling during President Obama's first few years in office. Being monied and insulated by their influence and connections, they miscalculated just how much bullshit the average member of community was willing to put up with (turns out, not too much!).

Clinton definitely has lots of LGBT supporters - tons and tons - but the idea that people in the community aren't going to give someone with Sander's long pro-gay record a look is wishful thinking at best. Say what one will, but loyalty counts for many of us, and no one can say Sanders hasn't been loyal for a very long time.

[dsc]

31. Let me be blunt

this is anti gay, self hating, clap trap. Frankly Phelps could have written this and it would have only a few words changed. For a fellow gay person to bring this crap here is mind boggling.

[Prism]

33. Tch, no it's not

Gay men talk like this all the time. One of my friends could have easily written this. The author's definitely catty and a bit of an asshole, but he's not laying down anything that hasn't come up in political conversations in the gay community.

[bigwillq]

35. I never felt that Hillary was a leader on LGBT Issues

Glad she "evolved" but, imo, she was never a leader for the cause or on this issue.

[MineralMan]

36. I don't think any of the current candidates are that.

I think that all of them, however, are now supportive of marriage equality and other social justice issues regarding LGBT people. It's impossible for anyone to retroactively have supported something. We're voting based on current positions, really.

[NCTraveler]

37. I would think it would depend on the person.

Each of us, as individuals, determine who we believe to be icons. It isn't something for others to decide for us. I also greatly respect her evolution and welcome her voice. I also won't begrudge anyone taking issue with things she has said in the past. When Hillary talks it matters and we all know it. For her to not be on board in this area was big. Along those lines, her current positions are big too. People really like to pick and choose when someone's words are important and when the aren't. But Hillary has gone way past words. She has taken actions at the federal level that have never been taken before in this area. Truly changing government for the better. I would imagine many people at the state department might disagree about her not being an icon. I for one wouldn't call her an icon, just one of the leading voices for progress in this area. Once again, these are the thoughts of individuals being talked about as if someone else has the rights to them.

[Prism]

44. I would haggle over the term "leading voice"

Because she is often lagging behind even her own party on this issue.

I'll not deny nor diminish that she has done some good stuff during her tenure at the State Department. But by the time she got around to it, we and many of our allies both in government and out had done all the heavy lifting for her.

Which is why her timing on gay marriage rankles. She didn't come around until it was absolutely safe for her to do so.

So, while I would count her as an ally, I could never count upon her as a leader.

[NCTraveler]

45. I would not dismiss one word you wrote here. nt.

[closeupready]

39. I liked her when I knew less about her. When she ran for Senator of New York,

I began disliking her more and more. Now, I've resolved never to vote for her for anything, but I do like her on a personal level, as she seems 'likeable'.

[Prism]

40. I admire her strength

She has put up with an awful lot - much of it utterly unfair - to gain the position and influence she has.

But I just don't trust or even know where her convictions are. I feel like I'm watching a bad break-up, where the jilted party is desperately screaming, "What do you want me to say?! Just tell me what to say and I'll say it!" That quality eeps me out.

[Chitown Kev]

43. I admire her strength too

although I still have to giggle a bit at that phrase because I have heard it SO many times as it pertains to Hillary...it's kind of a tired cliché.

Meh.

Sanders' record on LGBT issues is considerably better than Hillary's and O'Malley's is the best of them all.

But goodness, I know some true Hillary fanboys at the LGBT blogs, though who pretend that Hilary was more progressive on LGBT issues than Obama, lol..and oh, when she extended those benefits to her employees at the State dept. before Obama really did anything, OMG, did they squeal in glee and bow before Queen Hillary's altar in offerings of devotion, lol

[Prism]

49. You would've enjoyed DU at the time

Especially those first two years of the Obama administration, when many of us were incredibly pissed at him (I include myself among that number). Hillary's extension of benefits was the ultimate "neener-neener" moment.

Yeah, Hillary, strong, etc. I don't know. I want to say kind things about her despite the fact I really don't like her much. Maybe a proper would rephrasing would be, "I admire her tenacity." But then, anyone who wants the Presidency as much as she does using the racial tactics she has to achieve it probably has no business being anywhere near the job.

[Chitown Kev]

51. Graduate of Pam's House Blend and still a bit of a regular at JMG here!

I had all the joy I could handle in those 1st 2 years of the Obama Administration

and I was incredibly pissed too...and I remember when quite a few LGBT migrated from here at DU to Pam's

[closeupready]

46. Some of the crap she's gotten is unfair, but a lot of it is very fair.

And the Clintons both are experts at manipulating public opinion, so we'll never really know who the real Hillary and Bill are. Thus, it's hard for me to feel sorry for either one of them, particularly in light of the VAST fortune they've acquired since leaving the White House "dead broke".

Money can help assuage hurt feelings like almost nothing else. So fine, go enjoy your stash of cash, and leave helping the American people to those who actually WANT to do JUST THAT. Because I don't think her run for the White House is about helping the American people AT ALL.

But to reiterate, I have no doubt on a personal level, she's pleasant and even funny. But as president, electing her would be a big mistake, IMHO.

Peace.

[Prism]

50. I'm of the same mind as you

And some of the Clinton Foundation stories I've read are beyond the pale. Posting them on DU probably wouldn't fly, but holy christ is that whole situation a cynical, exploitative mess.

[Zorra]

55. Look closely at Clinton's face as she says New York should not recognize gay marriage.

The awful truth is revealed at 2:00:

[MisterP]

58. post- (and pre-) coup Honduras is a living hell for any LGBT, especially with rape as a

core procedure for one police unit; it's less trans-friendly than Iran to boot

Libya is ISISland now and is presumably not a hotspot for the Pink Dollar (even though we were assured right here on DU that it was stable and any reports of unrest were from the Rovian! Lie! Machine!)

presumably if you deny that she's "the X candidate" you hate Xs but this level of self-isolation from reality is frankly depraved

[dsc]

60. so how is Honduras her fault again

if it was bad both before and after. Oh, and Libya wasn't a gay mecca before Gadaffi's overthrow either.