Stating and arguing an opinion about Bernie Sanders' chances is not a "smear."

[RBInMaine]

It is good and healthy to have a debate. It is no "smear" to think, for very good reasons, that a self-described socialist has little to no chance of being nominated. It is a stated opinion and one well-shared. All the odds makers agree. Most of the professional pundits and statisticians like Nate Silver agree. Bernie is a wonderful guy. But a self-described socialist can not, in my view based on the traditions of our nation and our politics, win the US presidency. He will be BAKED by the R's attack machine ads. We will hear "socialist socialist socialist" day and night. This is not a "socialist" nation, like it or not. Sorry, but Bernie as prez most likely will not happen. If anyone can make a serious argument to the contrary by all means go ahead. And please make sure to include our long political and cultural history in this country.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. You know what they say about opinions...

And while we might hear "socialist, socialist, socialist" about Bernie from the GOPers, we would hear "Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi" and "email, email, email" about Hillary, with a soupçon of Vince Foster. And, as far as they are concerned, everybody to the left of Darth Vader is a socialist. Which would include Hillary, maybe.

[left-of-center2012]

61. "everybody to the left of _____ is a socialist"

Left of any of the GOP candidates.

[FormerRepublicanNow]

88. I left the Republican party because they became crazy

I planned on voting for Hillary because she is the most experienced candidate to ever run and she would break the glass ceiling. But since I have been here I met Bernie. He has done something that Hillary never did, he gave me hope and faith that things could change in this country for the better. My vote for Hillary was to prevent things from becoming worse, my vote for Bernie would be so that things become better.

Bernie and his movement fuse Tom Joad from the Grapes of Wrath and Jefferson Smith from Mr Smith goes to Washington. He is exactly what this country needs now. I am tired of being a cynic and I want to believe in my country and its government. Bernie can do that. Hillary has my head, but Bernie has my heart. I am well on my way of changing my mind and supporting him, especially after the speech he gave at Liberty University, it took real courage to go into the lion's den and brought tears to my eyes.

I seem to not be the only one who is going thru this process. The more people know Bernie the stronger he becomes. I for one, am willing to take a chance and vote for a possible dream, even if I risk the crazies taking over.

[TwilightGardener]

2. I don't believe it's a smear. Bernie's chances aren't that great, as things stand today.

It's rational to expect he won't be President. Also, Martin O'Malley's chances, not that great. It is what it is.

[virtualobserver]

3. "socialist socialist socialist" day and night would bore the living hell out of Americans

anyone who thinks that this strategy will work has no respect for the intelligence of the American people.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. We heard that "socialist" thing about Obama, too.

And look how that worked out.

Americans won't elect a socialist/black guy/socialist black guy whose middle name is Hussein/socialist black guy whose middle name is Hussein and who was a community organizer, the GOPers (and some Dems) said. Strangely, they did, twice.

[virtualobserver]

10. we even re-elected a socialist

He would have won a third term if it wasn't for that pesky Constitution

[Hoyt]

33. Many Sanders supporters label Obama a corporatist bent on destroying middle class.

[Capn Sunshine]

80. +1000

One of the annoying things about Sanders supporters is they see corporations as really really bad. Without exception or consideration.

The other one is how many of them have been relentlessly attacking the President for the past seven years.

It makes it hard to like their candidate, given that so many of his DU surrogates here have been in "attack" mode since 2008.

[redstateblues]

63. Obama is not a socialist-Bernie is

big difference

[djean111]

4. Why does anyone have to answer this?

You have been posting this same screed for quite a long time. No one is going to do as you say and stop supporting Bernie.
In fact, many of us feel that Hillary has too much baggage to win.
Be that as it may, none of us has to justify support of Bernie to anyone whatsoever. You have read the posts where we talk about issues. Issues are important to people.

I am sorry that you cannot accept that not even one person will stop supporting Bernie and start supporting another candidate because you say to do so. It evidently is galling, but you need to accept it.
And - if we Bernie supporters are so insignificant, than I really fail to understand why you bother with this.

Edited to add - no, you do not want a debate. You want acquiescence and agreement. That is really all you want. And you will not get it. Sorry.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Agreed. Everyone should just go pffft and move on to other threads.

Let them have their echo chamber.

I'm going to find a positive thread about Bernie and kick and rec it for the op.

[jkbRN]

37. + 100000000000000

[AtomicKitten]

79. Exactly. Thank you.

[LWolf]

5. Neither is pointing out

HRC's many flaws.

[BlueWaveDem]

6. The attack ads would be worrisome.

And I agree, Bernie is a great guy. The huge majority of the over 50 crowd hears socialism and they're just not having it. And the more worrisome part is that the over 50 crowd seems to be the only ones that vote consistently.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. Over 50 person here. Supporting Bernie.

You'd be surprised how many old progressives there are out here - people who aren't the least put off by "socialism." When I went to anti-Iraq war demonstrations almost all I saw was other old people. Don't assume everyone over 50 is conservative, because we aren't. I am getting a bit tired of all the red-baiting, though.

[SheilaT]

76. I'm 67, a baby boomer

and I don't find the "socialist" label to be off-putting.

It's really the prior generation, the WWII people, who are rapidly departing this earth, who conflate all socialism with Communism, which was always a pretty ignorant thing to do.

[liberal_at_heart]

36. The attack ads against Hillary won't be any prettier if she wins the nomination.

[SheilaT]

78. Bingo.

If anything, there's a lot more to attack with her.

[Capn Sunshine]

81. No matter who, the attacks will be vicious and desperate

But they will get a lot of help from the surrogates of each side in the primaries, that's for sure.

[DanTex]

11. Agreed. I still haven't come across a coherent argument as to why he stands a chance in the GE.

It basically comes down to, Bernie is so great that he will usher in an unprecedented transformation of the electorate.

This election is too important to put in the hands of the Easter Bunny. The GOP is real and horrible. What matters is winning next November, and the person to do that is not a self-described socialist.

Maybe in another 20 years a socialist will be viable. But not right now.

[Krytan11c]

17. Here's one that will probably be ignored

Bernie Sanders crushes Hillary's favorable/unfavorable rating among independents. In case you didn't know the majority of Americans are independents, they are the group that decides elections. Having faith in Hillary Clinton to win over independents is like believing in the Easter Bunny.

"This election is too important to put in the hands of the Easter Bunny. The GOP is real and horrible. What matters is winning next November&quot You), and the person to do that is not a candidate who is unfavorable with the group of Americans that determine elections.

[DanTex]

18. Bernie's had no oppo research or attack ads run against him at all. Hillary has been the target

of the GOP for decades, and she's still standing strong, beating basically all of them in GE polls. Once the GOP starts going to work on Bernie, he's toast. He can't dodge the socialist label because he claims it. He's further left than anyone who has won anything major outside of a small number of very liberal states. Not to mention the fact that he doesn't have nearly the fundraising capacity to fight back.

For Bernie to win would require nothing less than a major transformation of the electorate. Right now 53% of Americans wouldn't even consider voting for a socialist, even if they liked the candidate. Yes, theoretically he could win, in the "anything can happen" sense. But beyond a Hail Mary, he's got nothing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Why not, if he's so utterly attackable for being a SOCIALIST?

Why haven't there been attack ads? If the SOCIALIST thing is so awful why doesn't Hillary run a few ads and take him out now?

Maybe because most people who aren't GOPers and teabaggers don't care and it wouldn't work?

[DanTex]

24. Because he's only run in Vermont.

[BlueWaveDem]

26. Because it makes no sense to spend the money at this point.

Is the most likely reason.

[Krytan11c]

20. For Bernie to win would only require

Him securing the Democratic nomination. Fundraising isn't everything, and when the opposition only has one attack to throw at you it is very easy to counter punch.

Example: "BERNIE SANDERS IS A dun dun dun SOCIALIST!!!!!"

Response: "Yes, I support socialist positions such as expanded social security, a right to healthcare, and an increased minimum wage."

I am pretty sure the majority of Americans will like and support Bernie once they get a chance to hear him.

[DanTex]

25. Like I said, I still haven't heard a viable argument. "I'm pretty sure" doesn't qualify.

[Krytan11c]

28. Do you follow the news?

The republican media classifies every Democrat as a socialist, it's a played out argument. It really doesn't matter if they play an ad with Bernie calling himself a Socialist. They played multiple ads of Pres. Obama saying he wanted to fundamentally transform America. He was still elected twice.

[DanTex]

30. Obama didn't call himself a socialist. Big difference.

[Krytan11c]

39. As if

As if that one phrase matters once the RW media does its spin.
Maybe I'm wrong though, Bernie saying he's a socialist obviously has had a large effect on you.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. Exactly. The "socialist" canard is a non-starter.

Bernie has never denied that he's a "democratic socialist" (not a Marxist or anything of the sort) who advocates for something like the government safety nets of the Scandinavian countries. All he has to do is keep talking about protecting Social Security and Medicare, raising the minimum wage, eliminating for-profit prisons and breaking up the big banks that almost ruined the economy, and people will understand that he's not the son of Leon Trotsky but a guy who's got ideas for helping the 99%.

[redstateblues]

64. Socialism will be a big deal in the GE

[TheProgressive]

42. Desperate Hillary Supporter (DHS) (tm) post alert!

Sanders has the best chance of winning the Presidency as even republicans
will vote for him... No republican will ever vote for Clinton.

[Capn Sunshine]

83. Ignoring the huge elephant in the room-he's Jewish

I have no problem with this, but historically, have we even had a Jewish nominee before? The closest was Joe Lieberman on the Gore ticket.

I think the argument can be forwarded that there was very little anti-semitism directed towards Lieberman. So it may be a non- issue.

Hopefully, the USA has come far enough in the past seven years that "Socialist" is the big popular attack, and religion is a non issue in 2016.

[DanTex]

86. I doubt that would make a difference. Socialist is a serious detriment to electability though.

Jewish polls about the same as catholic, woman, black, hispanic, which is to say a few bigots won't vote for such a candidate, but those people aren't voting for Democrats anyway.

[aidbo]

12. And countering an argument like that..

..with a concern about the electability of Hillary Clinton because of the email thing is also not a smear.

Not saying the email thing has any merit, just saying it hurts her electability.

[SunSeeker]

13. K & R

[PowerToThePeople]

14. Multiple red scare troll posts in a single day.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. "I have here in my hand a list of names of DUers who support Sanders..."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. It's red baiting. And, nothing new.

[liberal_at_heart]

21. It may not be a smear but it should not be taken as fact. First of all it is an opinion, an opinion

based on presumption which tries to predict future events. I heard the exact same argument against Obama here on DU by Hillary supporters in 2008. No one can predict who is going to win. Of course I don't base my vote on electability anyway. I vote based on platform and voting record, and for me that means voting for Bernie Sanders.

[corkhead]

22. Wow, twice in the same day

You have convinced me. I am no longer for the self avowed democratic socialist and I am switching to the neoliberal corporatist republican-lite candidate because that's what Americans really want.

Got it!

[cheapdate]

23. You posted an earlier OP with a similar theme,

and despite a great many replies, I didn't notice where you had even once participated in the discussion that followed. So far in this thread, it seems you've also declined to participate in any discussion.

That seems a little unusual to me.

[HDSam]

27. Let me begin by

saying I haven't always voted straight democrat or republican. I am, or more correctly, was, a swing voter, your typical centrist. I've generally viewed our elections as a means of choosing the lesser of two evils and am sick and tired of it.

I attended Bernie's rally (my very first political rally) at the University of Nevada Reno and was very impressed, impressed enough to hand over my hard-earned money to buy a t-shirt with his name on it. I have never, in the 28 years I've been eligible to vote, purchased ANYTHING that even hinted at a party/candidate affiliation.

Bernie is the one candidate in all these years that I feel I can vote for without compromising.

So a sample size of one doesn't mean anything, but I'm not the only one I know that is enthusiastic about finally having a candidate we can feel good about voting for.

[wendylaroux]

58. I feel the same way!

I heard him on c-span years ago and loved him then.
Totally excited about his run for prez.!!
I am an old lady,it takes quite a bit to excite me these days,

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Pretty sure I'd like to hear "socialist! socialist! socialist!" all day and night rather than "LIAR"

So you say they're coming after Bernie with an oven to BAKE him with. Well let me tell you they'd come after Hillary Clinton with a FLAMETHROWER and NUCLEAR BOMBS.

If you think one word sinks Bernie Sanders and have no fear of the fact Hillary Clinton carries enough baggage to fill a fucking freight train, I'm afraid your blinders are on so tight they're becoming part of your anatomy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. If cries of "SOCIALIST!!!" and other forms of red-baiting

and hippie-bashing are all they've got, they sure haven't got much.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Nothing makes me laugh so hard as reading "Ooooh, they're going to be so MEAN to Bernie!"

The reality is when it comes to Hillary Clinton the GOP won't be simply mean, they'll wage thermonuclear war.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

40. She's got more baggage than you'd find in the cargo compartment of a 747.

Some of it isn't fair, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there. They won't stop with Benghazi and email; they'll dredge up all the bullshit from when Bill was president, including but not limited to Vince Foster. I'm sure she knows it's coming. But it's both hilarious and lame to say Bernie isn't a viable candidate because he'll be called a socialist. Indeed, the fact that he self-identifies as a "Democratic socialist" goes a long way to take power away from the word. He gets right on top of it and explains exactly what that means, and so far the message is catching on. It's like, "Yeah, I'm a socialist. So what? If it means I support Social Security, Medicare, single-payer health insurance, a livable minimum wage, and higher taxes on corporations and billionaires, I plead guilty."

[cantbeserious]

32. Stating An Unfounded Opinion Becomes A Self-fulfilling Meme - But That Is The Point - Is It Not

eom

[orpupilofnature57]

41. Crickets..

[orpupilofnature57]

35. It distracts from the issues, the substance instead of the sports page .

Polls, Polls AND MORE Polls, no Policies .

[JoePhilly]

43. You are trying to be logical. You need to stop it.

Well, you need to stop if you want to understand why some of Bernie's supporters get upset when you say things like this.

Many of DU's loudest and angriest Sanders supporters were demanding a primary of Obama in 2012. Some of them seemed sure it would happen. Sure, they had no candidate. But it was going to happen.

They've spent the last 6+ years making predictions about evil things Obama would do ... only to have those predictions fail. Have they become even sightly more introspective, nope.

They've just gotten more angry ... as if their predictions had actually came true.

And so now ... they can't imagine Bernie losing. They think they can call Hillary supporters names, and those same people will just switch to Bernie.

We're Bernie to win the Dem nomination, he'd actually need a strategy to deal with the issue you mention. Sadly, many of his most disgruntled DU supporters do not think so. The idea that this issue would effect people is an offense to them. How dare you even mention it.

These folks have been wrong a lot over the last 6+ years. And they wear it like a badge of honor.

[karynnj]

44. I'm amazed how well he has borne the constant chatter saying this

He has remained cheerful and simply continued his issue oriented campaign and enjoying the large rallies that seem to happen wherever he goes.

PS the wording is an intentional copy of something said of his opponent.

[Jim Lane]

45. Thank you! I am bookmarking this thread.

It's part of the whole pattern of the double standard of Clinton supporters.

You write:

Stating and arguing an opinion about Bernie Sanders' chances is not a "smear."

I agree.

I'll add: Stating and arguing an opinion about Hillary Clinton's chances is not a "smear" either.

As we all know, however, anyone who mentions a factor that would hurt Clinton in the general election, if she's the nominee, is accused of Hillary-hating, Hillary-bashing, and, of course, posting right-wing memes.

How well each candidate would do as President is the most important consideration, but it's also worth asking how each would do as the Democratic nominee. My point is that it's worth asking about Clinton as well as about Sanders. What's sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose.

[Thinkingabout]

46. K & R, good post.

[Bernievoter]

47. I am a Republican for Bernie Sanders.

This will probably be my only post. I have been reading DU for years. I am in NC and there are lots of us Republicans for Bernie in the Tarheel State. We are excited about Bernie because we are tired of this country being run by the 1% and the rest of us have no say any more. Bernie is the real deal. The Republicans DO NOT want to face Bernie in 2016. Bernie has no baggage except for being called a Socialist by the Hillary camp, which means nothing in this day and age. You can bet if Hillary gets the nomination with all her baggage, a fire will be built under every republican and they will be coming out in droves to vote against her, no matter who the republicans nominate.
I and other republicans that support Bernie will work overtime getting as many people as we can to the polls to keep her out of the White House. This is the time for a new start for America and a candidate like Bernie Sanders doesn't come around often. Let's not blow it. Thanks.

[cantbeserious]

49. Glad To Have You On Board - Agree On The 1% - Bad For All

eom

[orpupilofnature57]

53. Please stay,, this place needs the Open minded people required to protect Democracy !!!!

[wendylaroux]

59. Right on

I know many republicans around my small town who are for Bernie also.
He appeals to a huge span of Americans.Thanks for posting.

[treestar]

69. A Republican who supports Bernie has only one reason

That's the one you want to run against in the GE.

How can you be a Republican and support Bernie? He stands for things you cannot stand when much milder things come from Obama or Hillary.

[jfern]

48. 538 thnought Webb would be the anti-Hillary

Using them for your argument is a loser.

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

50. I can understand people thinking that Hillary's got this...

We can all argue for our opinions.

Most pundits also thought BO DIDN'T have a chance against Hillary. Then people argued that he'd never win the general, or be re-elected.

All the arguments against Bernie sound like the exact same thing to me. Some people's brains affix themselves to "this is the way it is" scenarios, and others are able to think outside the box. Elections are dynamic and uncontrollable. We've never been here before.

People are sick and tired of the establishment politicians. They're sick and tired of crumbs for the middle class and poor while corporations get billions in tax breaks and pay no taxes... They're sick and tired of you name it, structural racism, police violence, war war and more war, privacy violations, wrecking the environment, banksters not going to jail, trade deals that strip human rights, etc., etc., etc.

So while I can understand people thinking that Hillary's got this (especially from folks that aren't political junkies) I don't agree. From the moment Bernie announced he would run as Dem I was excited. And so far my expectations have been exceeded, and so far there's no evidence of Bernie's popularity leveling off. His popularity is like a wild fire. Even if Hillary decided to adopt 100% of Bernie's platform Bernie would still win because HRC doesn't come across as authentic or trustworthy, but as a basic politician who's goal is being elected rather than solving the problems that Bernie has been talking about for years. Never mind all Hillary's political baggage (mostly nonsense) that the right loves to hate. HRC's stars just aren't aligning.

If you're open minded enough to read the best description of why Bernie's the more likely nominee see this: http://www.secularnirvanablog.com/what-the-pundits-and-experts-fail-to-understand-about-the-bernie-sanders-phenomenon/

And also keep your eye on the trendlines at HuffPost Pollster: http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

[Lil Missy]

51. DU is la-la land. Wishful thinking passes for "expert" analysis. Reality is discouraged. n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

55. You have expertise in this Field, I could tell by Your avatar .

[TBF]

52. With all due respect

your pundits and odd-makers need to get out a little

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251624116 --> photos of crowds supporting Bernie

The only place I'm hearing "socialist, socialist, socialist" is with disdain from supporters of Hillary. And I'm a person who likes to talk about that particular economic system.

[cantbeserious]

54. Yes - The Meme Has Become A Chorus - Head From One Particular Durection - Fascinating

eom

[Armstead]

56. The way you stated this previously was insulting.

Saying people who support Sanders live in "fantasy land" and otehr choice phrases were not likely to start a reasoned discussion.

Now in response to this -- You are asking to prove a negative. No one know how much difference the "socialist" label would make. It is a right wing meme, whether said by a GOP or a Democrat.

The US may not be officially Socialist (Trademark) but it does have a strong Liberal/Progressive/Populist heritage. What are his positions and proposals? Basically Liberal/Progressive, with a strongly populist orientation. The positions he espouses are widely popular.

Can he be elected? Nothing is certain. But any claims that he is "unelectable" is bullshit. His record of overwhelming victory repeatedly speaks for itself. And that includes support from all segments, including moderates and conservatives.

[AuntPatsy]

57. Common now at least be honest, Sanders is a Democratic Socialist NOT a socialist..

Big difference, huge.....

At this point I await the debates, still not fully decided, and for your reading pleasure, a bit of American History -

http://billmoyers.com/2015/07/03/social-democracy-is-100-american/

[Vattel]

60. Of course that is not a smear. How much the socialist label hurts him

depends on how he defines "socialist."

[daleanime]

62. Arguing implies receiving opposition.....

you don't like opposition?

It's kind of necessary. Have a lovely evening.

[DianeK]

65. IMO

it's a good thing that the American people have more intellect than you give them credit for...he is a democratic socialist..as am i ..as anyone who travels on our roads or sends their kids to public schools or avail themselves to all the many social programs we have in this country..the red baiting no longer works..so come on...knock it off..we are too smart for this!

[redstateblues]

66. Any comment about Bernie that is not positive

is a smear. Get used to it.

[malokvale77]

67. Well...

according to the odds makers, a black man with a foreign sounding name could not win.

I don't think you have a clue what the common folk are looking for.

We all think of Hillary right there with every RepubliCON.

That's my argument, including our long political and cultural history.

We are fed up.

Enough is enough.

[redstateblues]

70. If you think there is no difference between

Hillary and the Republican jokers running for their nomination you need to find some other sources besides DU. There is a huge difference. As far as knowing what the common folk are looking for you need to come down and spend some time in TN.

[treestar]

68. It's being called a smear now?

[delrem]

71. This is exactly what the Sanders campaign is doing.

You, perhaps, have not been listening.

But others have.

We are talking about the viability of universal health care.
We are talking about the viability of universal education.

These are universal social programs, tested out in several successful countries, and are the wave of the future for that reason.

Moreover, we are talking about the viability of peace.

We would immediately put all war profiteers out of business, if not in jail.

[ibegurpard]

72. We've heard "socialist, socialist, socialist" about Obama for 8 years

We'll hear it about Hillary too. Difference is no one has been hating Bernie for 20 plus years and he actually excites people.

[highprincipleswork]

73. If one wants to remain chained to popular opinion, no matter how false.....

If one wants to remain chained to popular opinion, no matter how false and misguided, there really is no hope for a happy life.

This country has been inundated with the worst kind of falsehoods and downright stupidity since the days of Ronald Raygun. Can you imagine an entire political party signing oaths of allegiance to a philosophy invented by a thirteen year old? That would be the Republican Party, pledging allegiance to the views of thirteen year old Grover Norquist, who imagined not paying any taxes. Yeah, like a thirteen year old or other child would!

And for many years now the media has been in the pocket of the same intellectual dishonesty and false thinking.

Now, there is someone who doesn't follow that pattern - Bernie Sanders. The false label of Socialism means nothing in the face of what he really says, does, and stands for. And people respond to this. In their hearts. In their minds. With their bodies.

That is why this is a movement.

So, please, do not speak to us as to whether he can win, based on the alleged expert views of people who have been following and promoting falsehoods for probably their whole entire lives.

Instead, join us, those who can believe in the truth as spoken by Bernie Sanders. Why? Because it is the truth!!!!! From all the lying that is taken as commonplace in the U.S. today, perhaps it's hard to imagine that the truth can burn through just about anything. Because it is the truth!!!!

And that is what people are responding to, and that is why Bernie can and, we believe, will, WIN and win big, because of us and through us and for all of us.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. red baiting bullshit is red baiting bullshit is

[riversedge]

77. I do not see it as a smear. Sanders uses that descriptor

himself. This is a discussion board and to discuss this issue should not be a problem.

[SheilaT]

82. You might to notice how many more people

have been blocked from the Hillary group than from the Bernie group here.

I think that says a lot about the relative ability of each group to tolerate dissent and criticism.

[99Forever]

84. Same shit, Different day.

Wrong the first 10 dozen times you posted it. Still wrong today.

Perhaps you need to reset your watch. It's not 1955 anymore.

Joe McCarthy called says he wants his dumbass.Red Scare back.

[Autumn]

85. So why is it if a smear if we are talking about Hillary's chances ?

Bernie is not a self described socialist, he is a Democratic Socialist. A lot of Democrats and Independents don't like Hillary because of her baggage. Republicans will go all out to keep "Billary" as they like to call them out of office. Bernie doesn't have those problems. When people hear Bernie message they like his message. Hillary's? Not so much.

[frylock]

87. Come back with your opinions once you figure out how to get Democrats elected in your own state.

This is like the Jaguars opining to the Patriots on how to win championships