2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy Bernie Sanders Is The Way of The Future.
Okay, so we're in a bit of a stalemate right now, Clinton supporters and Sanders supporters. There's a lot of bickering, a lot of nonsense, as well as some heated and honest intellectual debate. I wanted to give my take on it, with humility, in that I know that not everyone will see it my way... but also with both enthusiasm and hope - and optimism.
Ever since I developed an interest in politics (about fifteen years ago, I was sixteen - and Al Gore was running for President) I have heard people say, or complain, endlessly, that there is no leader out there who is for the people. There is no one who isn't in some way ridiculously wealthy, powerful... who doesn't have some kind of grand privilege. No one for the people. I have heard this from members of all parties. Where, people ask... are the Lincolns? The Roosevelts? Where are the JFKs?
I've always believed that they were out there, but either too smart, or too afraid to challenge the political system in this Country. Now I know better.
Here we have it... a man who rides coach, who actually sits in the middle seat, in coach, on an air plane... while running for president. Here we have someone who isn't taking money from huge corporations, the Koch brothers, or billionaires looking for some political favors. Here we have someone with an almost flawless record of fighting for civil rights, for the poor, for social justice... for more than most of us have ever had - but have desperately wished for when times were hard.
Imagine, if you will, a Nation in which a free college education is possible. Imagine us, or our children, being able to go to school without suffering under the crippling debt that typically comes with it. Imagine a President... an administration, a government... that would NOT be willing to bow down to the mightiest of corporate or religious influences, but who represented the people, who represented the common good. Do you have a good picture? Yeah, me too. It's an older gentlemen with kind of crazy white hair, who frequently says brilliant... and simple, and true things, that shock the Nation. This is why the crowds he gathers are in the thousands.
A man who says, without fear, "If you're a millionaire, you probably shouldn't vote for me." When was the last time anyone even remotely like this ran for President? When was the last time we had a chance to vote for someone not just easy to like.... but someone who is actually right on the issues we so deeply believe in as democrats?
Freedom of choice. Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. The beginning of freedom from these oligarchs which have taken over most of the highest offices of our Nation. A leader who's motivation is not wealth and power... but the common good. You know... in my lifetime, I have never had the opportunity to support someone like Mr. Sanders. I consider it an honor and a privilege.
I am not into absolutism. I do not think he is perfect, I do not think he will do everything perfectly. I do think though... that he just might give us common people a chance, a chance at taking back some of what has been stolen from us for decades. Our pride, our self respect... our respect for our Nation, our pride in being Americans. Our ability to dream... to look forward and think, with honesty... that, if we want it, we can have something more than the mindlessly slavish and brutal system of work our Nation has now become consumed with.
Imagine... what if people in government actually admitted that it was okay to be poor? That it was not a sign of some great moral flaw, laziness, or weakness... but simply a difference in numbers, in circumstances and in background. What if someone gave everyone a chance to improve the odds? Beyond that... what if we no longer had to fear that we would starve to death, or never be able to get an education because it was forever (financially) beyond our reach?
Sanders understands these things. He also understands as no other politician I currently know of... the threat that comes with climate change. A threat to our entire future as a civilization, as a society, as anything at all. We are facing an event that could potentially destroy our race and way of life. I believe that it is important to have leaders who understand just how serious this is... who are willing to go the extra hundred miles, to take on the corporations and demand better regulations, cleaner air and water... maybe just a little frigging responsibility from the kinds of idiots who poisoned the ocean during the BP disaster.
It is past time for conscience, for courage... for passion and compassion. Sanders demonstrates all of these things in a beautiful and eloquent, articulate manner. I know who I'm voting for. I do not hate Clinton - I do not think she is a bad person or a bad candidate. I simply think that Sanders is the best damn candidate I've seen in my lifetime.
Here's our chance... we'd be fools not to take it.
Paka
(2,760 posts)I've been waiting for the right candidate a lot longer than you have, and I am delighted to support and vote for him. I've been foolish many occasions in my lifetime, but I don't intend to be foolish when it comes to the candidate I support at this critical junction.
GO BERNIE!
Uncle Joe
(58,483 posts)Thanks for the thread, davidthegnome.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Bernie has attracted the YOUNG, against all the conventional wisdom that you need a 'young' candidate to attract young voters.
Young people are on fire over his candidacy. It's amazing how enthusiastic they are.
They 'get' what he is talking about. He is in tune with them. His age isn't even a factor, it's his intelligence, his honesty, they see it and they love it.
This may be our last chance for a long time, to do what is right for this country.
DeeDeeNY
(3,356 posts)Absolutely right!
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Young people are again leading us to elect Bernie. Convincing their parents and grandparents to vote for Bernie for their future.
It's exciting. Feels like we are going to win this, against all odds.
Thanks for the great post, davidthegnome. Come visit my garden anytime.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)The young can make the difference.
Please get as many of your peers as you can to make sure they're registered to vote and to remember to vote.
Vote not just in the general elections, but more importantly, in the primary elections. And research who and what you're voting for! The primaries are hugely important because it is a more direct influence on your party. Also, since fewer people vote in primaries, you vote has an amplified effect.
Thank you so much for being an engaged young voter.
I hope that there's many more like you.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I am a Sanders supporter, but a little suspicious. Tonight when I campaigned for Bernie and met up with young people so enthralled with Bernie, I decided to ask quite simply why are you supporting Bernie. The answer: a litany of Bernie's stances on the issues. They have his stances down pat. And there is not going to be a scandal or any way to dissuade them from their decision that he is the best. He is not sold out to anyone.
I am quite amazed at how knowledgeable the Bernie youth are. I have never seen this in the many campaigns that I have taken part in.
Feel the Bern! It's exciting!
"little suspicious"? Sorry I don't understand. Do you mean you *were* a little suspicious until your question was answered? I think that's what you meant.
My 28yo son and all his friends are gungho excited for Bernie! I'm so happy they too are feeling The BERN!!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I find among young people is for Bernie's ideas or because there is some fad or follow-the-crowd effect at work.
To my happy surprise, the young people I am talking to are really excited about and engaged by Bernie's ideas and proposals.
I am thrilled about this.
Not since the Civil Rights movement have I seen young people so involved emotionally in politics. It's been a long, time. A long time.
The Viet Nam War protests were also a period of engagement, but the movement that opposed that war was negative. It was a protest about something wrong.
The Bernie movement is an affirmation that there is something we can do that is better than what we are now doing.
Thank you Wall Street. Your cheating finally became so extreme that Americans are rejecting your values. If you don't like the Bernie movement, you have only yourselves and your lying hearts to blame for it.
Repent, Wall Street.
You cheated too many Americans with your get-rich-quick mortgage fraud scheme.
Now you are going to learn your lesson.
Let's hope that Bernie and a chastened Congress can put laws in place and enforce them that will instill some ethics into our business community.
Feel the Bern!
Duppers
(28,130 posts)Very good to hear your skepticism was unwarranted.
My son and his friends are grad students who know the issues, so there's no fad element involved there either. They know this country NEEDS Bernie.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... the government causing billions of dollars of loss and openly apposes all eligible Americans voting?
Regards
PatrickforO
(14,602 posts)en masse. Remember, he says he cannot do this by himself, but is calling us to be part of a political revolution. It's going to take some work, though. Time to write our Senators, Representatives, time to get active in local politics, time to keep informed on issues.
Sometimes I wonder if the American people are up to it. I am and I know most of the people here are, but...
Well, we'll see, won't we?
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... by a majority of support for a common sense position by people because the gerrymandered GOP doesn't answer to the mass of people... they answer to whomever can fund their gerrymandered districts runs.
"us" in the form of mass support for common sense positions was tried last time...
The GOP isn't moved by bullying or pulpits or guns to their heads or a sense of common good and decency (see the current characterless GOP candidates)
Pulpits and mass support for positions failed, so ...
It leads to a fair question; what is Bernie going to do different?
If nothing, then why should I chance it?
tia
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)in the streets.
Only one candidate comprehends this.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... I'm still not seeing masses of people moving the few, it hasn't worked so far when it was tried before the Iraq war et al
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)Rich people are flesh and blood, just like the rest of us. All their money and power means nothing when they are legitimately afraid. And the only thing that scares them into compromise is true civil unrest. At least that is what history shows to date.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... angry. When people make that much money they don't live on the same planet, they're isolated... VERY isolated.
And civil unrest...
where?
Their neighborhoods!?
Cause they could care less if we burn down ours...
We're supposed to control congress, we can't if its gerrymandered and answers to no one.
I'm listening for answers around that... I think that would tip me towards one candidate than the other.
Otherwise why chance it
JM2C
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Instead of giving up, we need to try a new tactic. Bernie.
You point out that the current situation, our voting for Obama did not work to make the GOP work together with Democrats for the good of America.
Then you point out that mass support -- 5 billion of us -- did not work last time.
Then you say:
"The GOP isn't moved by bullying or pulpits or guns to their heads or a sense of common good and decency (see the current characterless GOP candidates)
Pulpits and mass support for positions failed, so ..."
Then you ask what Bernie will do differently and "why should [you] chance it?"
And I have to ask, if what we have tried before (and the Clintons are part of what we tried in the 1990s) and the GOP is still so anti-American, why NOT chance, give a chance to Bernie?
Why not?
In my view, your questions and your arguments lead to the conclusion that since what we have tried in the past (and I strongly supported Kerry and Obama, both good leaders) has not worked, we should try something new.
That new is Sanders. He has stronger policy issue stances, can explain them more clearly and is more persuasive and determined than the Democrats we have nominated and elected in the past.
Sanders has promised not to appoint any Wall Streeters to his cabinet. That is in my book a good way to send the message to the Republicans that the days of being ruled by money and the investor class that hogs it all and shares nothing with the American people (or the poor in the world) are over.
And that is the message we have to send: investors (and many of us are small investors) and the leaders of the business community and the billionaires CANNOT HAVE IT ALL.
That is all there is to the message. The redistribution of American wealth to the top small percentage of the top 1% that has taken place since the 1970s almost continuously has to at least be slowed. They simply cannot have it all. And as things are going, that is where we are headed. Into a system in which very few just have or control everything. They can have a lot, but they can't take everything. They have to pay a fair amount of their gainst in taxes.
And they have to focus on jobs in the US and rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. Trickle down economics have not worked well.
The system has to be unrigged. The rules need to be clarified and applied to all. And we have to end the police brutality toward minorities especially Black people.
I do not see Hillary doing this. She is to me status quo.
We have to have a change. Bernie represents change. That's why I support Bernie.
I sympathize with your frustration. But the answer to your questions is in my opinion to give Bernie a chance. Since things are so awful even under Obama who is a good man, we should try something different, someone with new, forceful ideas. Bernie.
Bernie was elected by 71% to a seat in the Senate from Vermont. He is electable. He is doing well in New Hampshire, is polling increasingly well. Let's get his message out there and see what happens.
All life is a bit of a gamble. Bernie is a surer bet in my view than Hillary or any other Democrat. Let's get behind him and let him try.
The idea that Sanders will fail where others failed before him? Well. That's a mindset. His independence from the moneyed class may just permit him to succeed where others have failed.
My serious answer to your questions? Why not give Bernie a chance to try to succeed where others have failed. Just give him a chance.
You know what they say about people who keep doing the same thing over and over when it doesn't work for them? They say they are crazy. I think Bernie can and will win because the American people are not crazy. We are going to give Bernie a chance. And we are going to work with him to help him succeed.
Sorry for the long answer. It's very late and I had a busy day.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... and not expecting different results is being practical.
Same thing = 1343234 billion people marching against 23 people who could give a shit about what the other people think.
My answer to your question is I can't afford to give someone a chance who hasn't proven up till now THAT they'll do something different....
Other than talk more....
We've had enough talk no?
tia
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... it is ok to "primary" him (Obama) because he "left us" or some shit like that as Bernie has done.
If they're going to be no tangible difference in tactics, and no.. conservatives don't care about how many people Bernie has supporting him because they're not answering to their own people, then why chance it?!
I do have something that will win me over to taking a chance with Bernie thought... just thought it...
If he were to organize a 50 state movement, WITH RESOURCES TO DO SO (not just promises of people liking him), and get congress changed on those grounds then maybe...
Otherwise what difference is someone who intimates they're going to change the inchangable
Conservatives DO NOT CARE about how many people support a cause if they're not being moved by the people at all
artislife
(9,497 posts)I can't copy and paste from the site but here is my transcript:
The Democratic Governors Association is going to tie it to the presidential campaign. So it seems, no matter who wins the primary, the agenda is going to be to fight gerrymandering.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)they are fighting gerrymandering. I belong.
Here is one of the articles on the home page
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OHIO SHOWS HOW GERRYMANDERING TOOK THE SWING OUT OF SWING STATE
sorechasm
(631 posts)But they are lazy. They're not going to bother voting for Hillary if she appears to be status quo (untrustworthy). Bernie can GOTV. If people vote, the Dems will win.
Thanks for your well-reasoned encouragement.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)going to need to change things. Most of what we have seen in the past is the liberal support as seen in polls that told us that we were a left leaning nation that supports leftist ideas. And that was the truth.
But what we need now and the youth clearly see this is not voting on a poll - it is activism. That means working on Bernie's campaign and GOTV.
On the local level it is getting out to the meetings in your own area, the caucuses, the city counsel meetings, taking positions on various boards, helping to educate others, etc. On the state level it is doing the same with the state leaders (not just the Democratic leaders but the opposition as well).
On the federal level it must follow the same pattern. But even more important is to become active in the process of governing by educating yourself on the issues and on the process of passing the bills we want passed. There are several bills in Congress right now that Bernie has proposed and that need support. I emailed my two senators and asked them to support those bills because they are vital. I will continue to keep in contact with them. This type of activism should happen at all levels of government. Everything we can do to help further the agenda up to a protesting in the streets.
Bernie tells us that he cannot do it alone. We the people have to do it and this is what he is talking about.
Answer that poll but do not stop there. Become involved - become an activist.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... people marching or coming together or agreeing or being human or being smart.
DOES NOT MOVE REPUBLICANS...
They don't care about those things, my angst is people who don't see this or haven't been paying attention to notice!!
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Especially if we stay out there more than a weekend. In the 60s and in many union strikes the action is continual and prolonged. General strikes would also be a good idea. Things that actually interfere with the daily schedule of the Rs and their money men.
I was watching the marches against the war and what I saw was one big march on a weekend that didn't bother anyone but the local residents who are mostly as powerless as the rest of us and controlled media. I also saw at the end of the march a lot of groups who were there for their own causes not necessarily anti-war.
In the 60s the marches were prolonged over the whole summer and back the next summer. No one was concerned about getting back to work or school on Monday. It was dedicated chaos. And it bothered everyone who wanted to get the usual done. If the marchers in Ferguson MO had shown up for a few days and then gone home we would not even know who they were anymore. They had and have the right idea. No more nice guy. Keep pushing.
But none of it works if we do not follow it up with votes. When you talk about the world wide marches against the Irag war you were dealing with a scared nation not an angry nation. Some of us understood but the majority of the nation were so scared the only one they blamed was Iraq. They never even thought about throwing out the "war president".
This economic mess is different. It is hitting everyone of us in the 99% in the butt. And that is what both Bernie and Chomsky are saying if we do not use activism and ALL its tools then we are not going to change anything.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)We can march and sit in and stand in for generations...
that doesn't move republicans, they don't care...even on gun legislation a majority of republicans want common sense measures but the rep legislature doesn't answer to their constituents so they vote along the lines of people who pay them.
also
We can also vote at 100% but in gerrymandered districts this doesn't matter either, for the last 10 years there have be millions of more votes for dems in congress than reps but reps when because of the gerrymandering.
We haven't had a democratically representative congress since 2010...
There's no way the GOP should've picked up seats after costing America 24 billion in the last shut down and it's even encouraged them again because they know their gerrymandered.
There is hope, scream against the gerrymandering but that is a generational issue and not a issue that is going to change in 2017...
jwirr
(39,215 posts)is the way to true defeat.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... going to net a different result either.
I'm looking for that and haven't heard it, they have a gerrymandered treasonous and mean congress to deal with
PatrickforO
(14,602 posts)But the people have been patient for a long time. We have undergone systematic exploitation and thievery, but now that the Occupy movement, the Arab Spring movement, movements throughout Europe and now Bernie have brought these issues front and center, we see a true nationwide populist movement building.
Look at Schmuckley, that CEO who bumped the price of an AIDS tablet from $13 and change to $750 and the immediate backlash on social media that shamed him into lowering the price again. Look at Wal-Mart, who too little and too late, it is to be admitted, bumped the wages of their people. Look at this week's horrible revelation about Volkswagen, keeping a billion in reserve to take care of lawsuits while not doing anything about the real problem. All these things are coming to light.
When Bernie is elected, an uses the bully pulpit to raise an issue, then is supported by millions of Americans writing, calling Congress, marching on Washington, things will begin to change. Remember that power never concedes anything, but must be forced.
That force is us.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... give a damn is more powerful the first.
How is Bernie going to MAKE them give a damn?!
March 234234i trillin people world wide!?
They could give a damn about that... they never have
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And politely tell them that they are full of crap (not those words, though) remind them that he can veto their pet projects, and generally be a direct but fierce politician.
I don't think Bernie Sanders will put up with the recalcitrant GOP anymore than he will listen to the man on the moon.
The reason is that he isn't trying to rake in the money and power, he has a goal in mind of making the US even better than it is.
A person that notes a problem, seeks solutions among the big and small, then finds as many like-minded individuals to help correct the problem isn't a dreamer, they are a DOER.
Never in my life have I accomplished a damn thing by badmouthing and complaining about people that marginally, tangentially, or wholly claim they have the same goals as I do.
The only thing that every worked for me was to put my enthusiasm, my time, my skills and my motivation to work for my goals.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Only we the people can do that.
First, we can elect Democrats to take their places.
If we can't do that, we can call a general strike. That is how other countries call for changes in their government.
If the GOP wants to shut down the government, why don't we respond by shutting down our shopping except for necessities. A few days of that, no shopping, no work, carpooling, bicycling, walking and using public transportation exclusively to cut gas consumption, etc. and the government shut-down will look like the nasty, irresponsible and childish maneuver that it is.
Two can play that game: The Republicans and the American people.
It would not take a whole lot of Americans deciding to lay off the credit cards and cash purchases to cause the Republicans to take notice. That would be especially true if we cut back on gasoline purchases by organizing ourselves to help each other out.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)There's a misunderstanding among those who don't quite get it about Bernie. I'm not saying that to be mean or anything, but if you got it, your question would be a different one. The question should be the same for any given candidate.
The question should be much more along the lines of: How are WE going to deal with a recalcitrant GOP?
Bernie is not magical, but he is a Kahuna. He is giving us a way to focus on and understand that the only way forward is through our actions in solidarity. It's an age old message that was forgotten somewhere along the line.
I for one now have a litmus test for any candidate running for pretty much anything. Do you put people ahead of business?
Sadly there is only one candidate that I am aware of passing that test. There is another that I'm not sure about but he may pass it as well. My congressman does not pass it, but if he were to obstruct Bernie then he can count on a serious challenger in his next primary.
I'm ready to do that. My grandkids are worth it. Are you? Are yours?
PatrickforO
(14,602 posts)Bernie's not perfect, as you correctly point out, but he's an order of magnitude better than any candidate we've had for maybe 50 years.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)... thing close to it are far.
She's a kick ass candidate like Bernie is and no... NONE OF THESE candidates can throw a stone
What I see mostly out of detractors of Hillary is the wingerish attempts at labeling her something unworkable
It's failing mostly cause a good portion of it is false or half truths or... the other candidate is 180 degrees better
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)a liberal of today, not sharing the ideas of liberals of today.
Also, Hillary takes too much corporate money at a time when that kind of money poses a great threat to our democracy.
Hillary has some good stances on some issues, but Bernie has better ones and has been consistent in his good stances.
Some of Bill and Hillary's historical positions, bill signings, votes, etc. suggest that they do not ask the right questions about the ultimate effects of what they sign or say or vote on. Examples are the Iraq War Resolution. This is an obvious one. Hillary voted for it without questioning it adequately. Bernie voted against it. But more importantly, before voting against it, Bernie explained that he could not vote for it because he questioned how the US could govern Iraq after invading it and what in the world the US would do if civil war broke out after we took the country over. Both questions proved prescient.
Bernie was for same-sex marriage. Again, his understanding of the issues involved was far more insightful than Hillary's. Hillary recited the right-wing religious view about same-sex marriage. It was always a weak argument -- that marriage is between a man and a woman. That was about as intelligent as the argument that women could not join the police force because after all, a policeman has to be a man because -- policeMAN! Not very bright.
The list of problems with Hillary's stances, the lack of critical thinking and courage behind them is long.
Hillary is a person with a good heart in many respects, but Bernie is just far, far better as a candidate and will make a far, far better president.
Sorry for Hillary supporters. But Bernie is just better.
I was out campaigning for Bernie this evening. The enthusiasm of young people for his ideas is quite inspiring and amazing.
Feel the Bern!
uponit7771
(90,370 posts).. CATEGORY.
What ever is applied towards Hillary the least can be applied towards Bernie including incredibly poor decisions on some issues.
None of the candidates can throw a stone
NOT ONE
GReedDiamond
(5,318 posts)...great post, thanks, davidthegnome!!
Duppers
(28,130 posts)K&R
RandySF
(59,547 posts)Honestly, thank you! We need more posts making positive arguments for candidates and less tearing down of opponents.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)You and your generation give me real hope for our future. You started it with OWS, went on to recruit Bernie to run for President and have driven his campaign to the top where it looks like he may just win.
You've taken the technology you know so well; the Internet - Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Blogs, Smartphones, Tablets and web sites and developed this HUGE online campaign! It's impressive and just incredible what you and your generation have done and I couldn't be more proud! It's because of you and your efforts that Bernie has tens of thousands show up at his rallies.
You gave given us feelthebern.org, an incredible web site on Bernie issues that's loaded with facts and was designed by Bernie supporters on their own time, with a lot of effort and with their own resources. I, personally, am so very grateful for everything they put into that site and to you and your peers for taking this completely dysfunctional country by the horns and doing something (huge) to change it!
You deserve a great big HUG!
Thank you, thank you thank you!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)But the weight of the abject failure of neo lib/conservative/new dem policies is beginning to squeeze the establishment