How can you fix the problem when you are part of the problem...

[Bread and Circus]

Of course at the core of most of the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual blight on this country is poverty. But not just material poverty. But also educational poverty and cultural poverty. I live deep in an area where drug abuse is rampant and inter-generational dysfunction is abundant. My area is kept impoverished in so many ways by a system that lavishes more on those who have the most and punishes those who have the least. What keeps this system in place is a soft form of political corruption where it all essentially comes down to varying forms of pay to play. This is rampant throughout both parties. If anyone is to be honest they have to say our politics are quite corrupt and in turn our Country is to a degree corrupt as well. At the bottom of this a two party system who have left behind most Americans in search of dollars above all else to perpetuate a sick system. Super Pacs, taking millions of dollars in speaking fees in the context of having an influential position, Citizens United, perpetual revolving doors, pork barrel spending, the MIC, politicians allow industries to write the rules to serve themselves.... it makes me sick. How exactly are the Clintons any better than all of this? How is Sanders? Biden? O'Malley?

We need real change for the middle class, the working class, and the poor.

The root of the problem is the nefarious influence of money in politics. We will never be able to be totally rid of it. But we need to drastically reign in or things are going to get much worse.

Do the Clinton supporters really feel Hillary Clinton deep in her bones wants to challenge the system she profits from?

Do the Sanders supporters really feel Bernie has the political clout to take graft in both parties on?

What about Biden? What does he stand for these days? It doesn't seem he has the fire in the gut to make any difference when he is just a fallback plan for the powers that be.

Disclaimer: I am a Bernie Sanders supporter who is still skeptical of him being able to win the dem nomination. However I do feel he would do better than Clinton in the general. But alas I worry even if he got elected he couldn't change much. We still dont have the Congress and the New Democrats have backed our party into a corner over the past 25 years in terms of what we stand for. I was really hoping for a lot more from Obama and I gave him a lot of money. I dont totally regret it but it was the progessives that really took a shine to him before anyone and I really feel he let us down to some extent. Not all his fault but I felt be couldhave fought harder and smarter for the people who embraced him first this time 8 years ago.

[mrdmk]

1. Thank you for posting your concerning thoughts Bread and Circus

Last edited Wed Sep 30, 2015, 04:33 AM - Edit history (1)

The short answer here is, 'there are no easy solutions!' Your analyst of the Democratic Party is spot on, who as a leader has the where-with-all to lead this country in a different direction is daunting. Given the current direction of the Power, Media, most of all, the Money, the common people will have to unite to turn the tables. Currently there are people running for office, who are getting a lot of media attention who are bent on dividing the masses rather than making constructive propositions. It will very difficult change when the day-to-day common folk are being directed towards, 'better get yours while its still here', instead of how much we all have in common.

Nice to see you again B and C...

[Bread and Circus]

38. Thanks... I gave up on politics until I heard Bernie Sanders speak... and damn if he didn't...

make me want to believe again.

[Live and Learn]

2. Bernie has spoken on the issues you mentioned.

Even Bernie acknowledges that it may be already be too late to have anyone win the nomination without money but he is doing his damnedest to fight against that possibility because it certainly will be too late later and he doesn't want his grand kids having to live in that reality.

He also has said he can't fix anything alone. He needs us. He needs both our votes for those that will support him and us to keep their feet to the fire. I imagine Bernie will do much like FDR and ask the people to support his platforms. I see this as our only chance for economical, environmental and sociological existence.

[stevenleser]

31. FDR had massive majorities in the House and Senate. Characterizing his legislative success as

coming from "asking the people to support his platforms" isn't a fair analysis.

[Ron Green]

3. A president telling the unvarnished truth about

the bought system is a good (and absolutely necessary) start.

[msongs]

4. thank gosh bernie is returning all the money he gets lol nt

[a2liberal]

5. Did you even read the OP?

[merrily]

7. Comic Relief Fundraiser: Sanders Perennial Snark Desperation Syndrome, or SPSDS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128054135

[merrily]

6. Which donations should Bernie be returning, msongs?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128054135

[Katashi_itto]

14. What donations would that be, oh knowledgeable 3rd wayer?

[merrily]

8. "Do the Sanders supporters really feel Bernie has the political clout to take graft in both parties

on?"


To the extent that I even think I know what you mean, he already has. If you think America is not getting that he is running on small (relatively), sunlit donations and why, I think you don't get it.

But alas I worry even if he got elected he couldn't change much.

At the very least he would not try to make it worse--and wealth inequality has definitely grown worse since Democrats went DLC. However, Bernie has been a lot more effective than the book on him indicates. If you have specific concerns, try searching DU. Sanders' supporters, including me, have already posted on the subject of his effectiveness several times. Hint: He's been more effective in Congress than Hillary was and, IMO, effective in the correct direction more often than she was or would be. Her two failed attempts at an unconstitutional flag desecration bill, for example.


Overall, my response to your OP is: pick the candidate you think is the least worst and then donate and volunteer all you possibly can. Or continue to dump on all of them in an effort to....what, exactly? Without offering solutions, the latter seems relatively pointless to me, but whatever floats your boat.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

9. This is what I don't get about Hillary attackers

Randi Rhodes had Ralph Nader on her show in 2004 when he was considering another run. "Who are you going to caucus with?" was her unanswered question. Same deal this time.

I think Bernie is smarter than his most ardent supporters. He knows not to attack other Dems. He also knows he needs to grow a movement that would be in place to caucus with when a Socialist gets elected to the White House. Otherwise, the markets will tank and any forward movement towards Socialism will be buried by the entrenched majority of Capitalist pigs.

Strategy and organizing is vital. Beating up on your future allies is self defeating and shortsighted.

[merrily]

10. You seem OK with those who "attack" Sanders. BTW, what do you consider an "attack" on Hillary?

Pointing out that she polls poorly on trustworthiness? Or that she advocated on national TV for empowering Bush to invade Iraq?

If it is smart of Bernie not to "attack" Hillary or have his surrogates attack her, but to stick to issues, what do you think attacks on Bernie by Hillary's surrogates and supporters, including things like anti-Semitism and falsehoods about bigotry and insensitivity says about Hillary?

Overall, IMO, focusing on candidates is more to the point than focusing on critics of candidates, especially if you mean DUers. No election turns on what gets posted on DU.

BTW, the caucus/Nader example in your post could not possibly be more misplaced. As you know, Bernie has always caucused with Democrats and was a founder of the House Progressive Caucus. He's received high praise from the likes of Dean, when he was head of the DNC, and Schumer, when Schumer was head of the DSCC. Sanders has even been the nominee of the Vermont Democratic Party, while running as an independent. And Sanders is running as a Democrat, which Nader did not do.

[djean111]

16. Don't you know? ANYTHING about ANYTHING Hillary has done is an ATTACK.

IMO HRC supporters don't so much want us to "stop attacking", they want Bernie's supporters to agree with them and support Hillary.

Just the fact that we support Bernie is an attack.

[merrily]

18. I agree 100% with most of your post, but I think they know we are not going to support Hillary.

Much as we know that they will not support Sanders.

I am thrilled that so many seem to think they can channel Sanders so easily, but Sanders has said he will disagree with Hillary on issues and he has indeed done that. As best I can recall, that is all that I have done as well.

I have not called Hillary names or insulted her personally. I have poked fun at Sanders' appearance, but never hers--even though she has brought it up herself a number of times. I've very sincerely wished her much health and happiness in private life.

However, I do think electability in the general is an issue and I stated my opinion on that before Sanders ever announced. In 2008, quite a few party leaders harbored a similar view, leaders like Reid, Daschle and Kennedy.

For the most part, I think there are some very wildly disproportionate notions of the impact on the real world, esp. on elections of what gets posted on DU. That's just divorced from reality. Some of us may be addicted to reading and/or posting here, so we may lose sight of certain things. However, imagining that what gets posted here could make a difference in a primary or general election is, at best, really dubious.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

32. I have mostly been waiting for Biden. He's the Populist insider.

merrily, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. And I can understand why so many of Sanders supporters are angry.

I would support the Democrat. I'm old enough (67) to remember every single election since 1968. I've watched both parties devolve into the sorry state they are in owing to money in DC. I've calculated how the disappearing pension plan in favor of 401K's force dependence on a healthy DJIA by a large segment of whats left of the middle class.

I fear our party needs a gradual turn in order to retain control of the wheel. A "hard left" could and would put overwhelming sums and scare tactics against Sanders. And from my perspective the zealous support for Bernie here at DU has unleashed a pack type fervor. I don't recall it being this way when Dean ran. Maybe because Dean was defeated Bernie backers feel desperate. I can appreciate the reluctance to trust Hillary. But her shortcomings still put her leagues ahead of those in the GOP. For them honesty is a sign of weakness.

I also suspect there are a number of moles here these days.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

35. re: For GOP Honesty is a sign of weakness.

McCarthy may have taken himself out of the running with this admission:

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/09/30/democrats-call-benghazi-investigation-mccarthy-admits-fraud.html

[merrily]

36. You say you appreciate my Reply 10, yet post back to me as though I'd never posted a word of it.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

37. I take it back.

My concerns are with behavior here at DU. Voting one's conscience is vital.

Good luck to us all.

[delrem]

11. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. nt

[smilingwen]

12. Should we just give up

What are our options? Do you really think we should be all doom and gloom and just sit back and complain it's all just too hard? Bernie doesn't have the clout?

That type of thinking is what got us in this mess in the first place. I, for one, feel our democracy is worth fighting for. To me, fighting for Bernie is our best hope of restoring democracy to this country. He can not take on both parties alone, he needs our help. If we don't step up to the plate as a people and take our country back from the oligarchy we have no one to blame but ourselves. Bernie wants to lead us to save ourselves, he does not expect he can save us and our democracy for us, and he says that at every speech.

How can you fix the problem when you are part of the problem? By recognizing that you are part of the problem. We have all been part of the problem by not fighting for our democracy. Now that I am aware of my role in that, I am working to change it, I hope you will be part of the solution too.

[merrily]

19. +1

[SleeplessinSoCal]

33. Even Bernie says a revolution is necessary.

I think in practical terms that means being more like Republicans when it comes to elections. Get the leftwing hardliners in Congress. Get rid of Blue Dogs and replace them with reformists.

It's much more work. Many more campaigns. Hundreds of them. But it has to happen for real change to be sustained.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

13. If he can beat campaigns with vastly more money, he empowers voters and shakes the very

foundations of the 'money = speech' paradigm. Media wants vast amounts of money in politics, because they get a lot of it, along with all the campaign leeches and grifters.

Obama promised Hope and Change, but didn't have the political history to back up his words. Bernie has been in the trenches, fighting the good fight for decades, making deals without giving up his ideals. He'll get done as much or more as any other Dem candidate can do, and I think he'll have better coattails than any of the 'conventional wisdom' types expect - especially if he's careful to tell his supporters that they need to give him a better Congress to work with.

[merrily]

21. It's not the amount of money; it's also the source: sunlit donations from individuals, most of

them relatively small vs dark money, PAC money, corporate money, etc.

As Sanders once stated in a Senate speech, most people and businesses who give big bucks to a campaign are doing so because they expect something for themselves in return. I am not giving tens of thousands, but I sure expect something in return, too. And the only way I know I will get a return on my investment this time is that everyone has the same $2700 donation limit that I do.

That said, if Bernie somehow raises $2 billion in sunlit donations from individuals like me with $2700 limits, more power to him.

[Fairgo]

15. So many possibilities

If the citizenry were, en masse, to walk away from the money game in politics, it would collapse in on itself almost overnight. The power we give it comes from our own willingness to endlessly swallow, but not process, the garbage that endless spews from the glowing boxes we have glued to our faces. All we have to do is stand up, put down the cheetos, and go outside to stand with our neighbors.

The proud members of the reality based world are smugly passive on a piece of flotsam they mistake for constancy, drifting into very dynamic and dark waters. Tell me change isn't possible as you float by, I tell you change is already happening and unstoppable. Bernie is the last gasp of a possibly rational transition to what is inevitably coming next...for now. There will be a worse best choice next time, and the same snarking will rise from whats left of the peanut gallery...until something big happens.

Something big is going to happen. If we are brave, the revolution can be soon and philosophical. The longer we live in delusion, the uglier the revolution will be. What is unavoidable is the revolution. This system is unsustainable. And the infrastructure is failing. We do have the power in our minds to imagine, power in our hands to build, and in our feet to march for something new. What we lack as a species it seems, is the ethos and the steel to rise above our poverty of values that swamps every economic class.

If every person had a hand in the community garden and everyone shared, no one would go hungry. That's my reality. I've seen it work.

[brooklynite]

17. ...How can you fix the problem if the Republican doesn't want to?

if Bernie Sanders isn't competitive nationwide, what will be the results if the Republicans win?

[Armstead]

20. GOP opposition is perennial and assumed

Democrats should be proactive instead of always measuring against the GOP Barometer.

There has not been enough opportunity yet to prove whether or not Bernie can be "competitive" or not. He came out of nowhere, and has done pretty well so far. And, in his history, he has proven that he know how to fight and win.

[brooklynite]

25. My point is that a Democrat that gives you 60% of what you want is better that one that gives you 0%

...by losing to the Republican.

[Armstead]

27. MY point is that it is still too early to assume that Sanders is 0%

He has proven his ability to get votes in Vermont by overwhelming margins repeatedly. And, contrary to the stereotype, Vermont is not all Ben and Jerry's.

He has also manged to come out of essentially nowhere and shown remarkable strength so far.

Maybe when push comes to shove he won't get the nom because of all of the embedded obstacles. But it's also possible he'll continue to show surprising resilience and abilities to generate and harness support (but not so surprising to those who have followed his political progress over the years.)

[brooklynite]

29. You're welcome to assume that; based on my analysis, it's not too early.

Vermont is not a battleground State, and Republicans in Vermont are not the same as Republicans elsewhere. Sanders isn't ahead (or close) in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Virginia, Colorado or any State in the south. Add to which, his limited fundraising (compared to Hillary and certainly compared to the Republicans) will make it much harder to campaign nationally for the General Election.

[Armstead]

30. Time will tell I guess /nt

[Bread and Circus]

39. A lot of conservative citizens do in fact want to see what's right. They vote Republican...

but would vote for Bernie and others both left right and center who would really stand up for them.

A lot of self-professed conservatives and Republicans vote for Bernie in Vermont even despite his "socialism" moniker.

Why?

Because they say he truly stands up for them.

I believe he got 72% of the Vermont Vote in 2012. Peter Shumlin the Democratic Governor got 58% of the Vermont Vote in 2012.

You can't get 72% of the Vermont Vote, 14% in excess of the Democratic Governor, without getting a lot of Republicans and Independents.

[merrily]

22. BTW, if your idea is to get everyone to stop voting or to mount a revolution, may I urge a more

realistic approach? Neither of those things is going to happen. Besides, if politicians could arrange it so that they were the only voters, I don't think they would hesitate. So, who would staying home spite?

Revolution is just plain unrealistic. Think Homeland Security, NSA and 226 years of history of how Americans behaved after ratifying the Constitution. If there was no revolution in 1930 or 2009, I'm not holding my breath.

[LWolf]

23. This Sanders supporter

believes that Sanders is correct when he says he can't do it alone.

Electing him gives us a chance, but we can't sit back and wait for him; that political revolution has to occur at all levels, and we have to be the ones to keep it going, because as long as politicians are owned by big money, they sure as hell won't.

I also think, looking at his record, that while his administration might not start off with a total reboot, which is what we'd all like, he knows how to work to make small gains, one step at a time, and we'd see the nation begin to make the turn to move in a better direction. How fast, how many steps...that all depends on us, working at the grass roots level to get him support, to keep the momentum going.

[99Forever]

24. I share many of your thoughts.

I have no doubt that Sen. Sanders can and will win the Democratic nomination, but I'm not so sure that the Third Way neoliberal oligarchs won't try to find a way to steal it from him. These are NOT honest players and have proven over and over they WILL do and say ANYTHING to gain and maintain power and their stranglehold on We the People.

The tipping point has been passed, We the People will not stand for it. Enough is enough.

[jeff47]

26. Fundamentally, we need to turn the country. And that will not happen with a single president

So Sanders isn't the "endgame" where we actually fix everything. He's step 1.

He would shatter the DLC mantra that only Republican-lite can win. That lets us build a party that can then actually address the problems you cite.

Much like Reagan didn't actually put us in our current state. He was the one that upended the old political alignment. The new political alignment took time to corrupt everything.

[Bread and Circus]

28. Thanks to everyone above for responding to my post. I appreciate the feedback...

I don't think the situation is hopeless but I do think if Biden or Clinton or another "mainstream" Dem is nominated, we will be kicking the can down the road for at least another 12 to 16 years. By which time I will be 60. That's 60 years of living in a Country that has slowly more and more embraced corruption as a core tenet of our politics, codified by a partisan supreme court.

I do think things may have to get worse before they get better.

I do hope Bernie gets elected and really does rally millions of us to this just cause of improving politics both from the inside and out. But to convince the independents and good meaning conservatives to join that revolution we need to be better than we are. The Democratic Party has to be better than it has been for the past 25 years or so. We have to reclaim a piece of the soul of the party that is not about "might makes right" but rather about what is really right and sticking to it until all stripes come to this cause.

I disagree with Bernie though, this doesn't just come from the bottom up. It needs to come from the top and the bottom. If we elect someone who does not really embrace true deep seated reform the bottom swell will be marginalized or isolated and picked off one subgroup at a time.

[liberal_at_heart]

34. Both parties are corrupt. That is why so many don't vote and Congress has such a low

approval rating. The people aren't dumb. They know they are being screwed.