I see it this way, it's extremely simple and logical to me

[retrowire]

Do we vote for who we believe could win?

or

Do we vote for who we believe should win?

[haikugal]

1. I'll vote for the candidate I think is best for our country....

[reformist2]

25. Me too. I see the OP's question as being: Should I dare to dream, or should I settle for less?

[DanTex]

2. I don't think a candidate that can't win the general should win the primary.

That road leads to the GOP.

[bvf]

13. No doubt that was the reasoning

of many Hillary Clinton supporters in the 2007 primaries.

[DanTex]

19. I wouldn't know, I was an Obama supporter from early on.

[bvf]

34. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

It wasn't even a question. It was a supposition about voter rationale based on your previous post.

[DanTex]

36. And I responded by saying that I don't know what the rationale of Hillary supporters in 2007

was because I wasn't one of them. Nor do I care, but if this matters to you, you can find some of them and ask them. What Hillary supporters thought in 2007 has no bearing on my current candidate preferences.

[bvf]

41. I was simply suggesting

that your post #2 likely described the reasoning among a certain percentage of her supporters in the 2007/8 cycle.

In short, I was pointing out that a lot of people probably agreed with you, and obliquely implying that it's fortunate for us Obama supporters that not enough of them ultimately did.

[SheilaT]

14. You do recall that there was no way in 2008

that a black man, especially one with a really weird name, could possibly win the general election.

[DanTex]

15. No. I supported and contributed to Obama in early-to-mid 2007.

[SheilaT]

16. Interesting that you supported him early on,

when early on in that election cycle the common wisdom was that a black man could not possibly be elected President. Indeed, back then the Hillary supporters kept on insisting that a white woman was far more electable than a black man, and he should just stop running for the nomination.

What's so different about Bernie that you assume he's unelectable? And forget the "socialist" pejorative, because 1) he proudly calls himself one, 2) hardly anyone under 80 gives a flying fuck about that term, and 3)it's been thrown against Obama from the very beginning to no avail.

You really need to come up with something better, like, I dunno, you're really into numerology and you've run his numbers and that's how you "know" he can't possibly win the general election.

[DanTex]

18. I don't remember who said what, but I didn't believe that a black man couldn't be elected.

Being a socialist is a whole different story, and there are polls to support that. There are also other differences. Bernie is to the left of anyone who has won any major election outside of a few very blue states. Bernie doesn't have nearly the charisma or public speaking skills of Obama. And, even though most of the party was behind Hillary early on, Obama did have some early endorsements and support from other Democrats, which also indicated that people who knew the game thought he could beat the GOP.

[artislife]

23. So you are saying if you believe someone can win

then they can win the primary, but if you don't think so then eff em.


O-----kay.

I believe Sanders can win the GE. That should be enough for him to run....in a democracy.

[DanTex]

28. No, I'm saying that I won't vote for someone who I don't think can win the GE.

Of course he can run.

[artislife]

33. Ok...that's fine...nt

[SheilaT]

29. This is the most coherent statement you've

made about why you don't support Bernie.

I am very glad that you did not agree with the "a black man can't be elected" meme eight years ago.

I happen to disagree with you, but time will tell.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I am currently reading "Believer" by David Axelrod.

I am currently reading "Believer" by David Axelrod. Barack Obama is sui generis. To suggest that any politician can repeat his feat is akin to saying any guy who puts on trunks and boxing gloves can repeat the feats of Muhammad Ali.

[artislife]

35. He was and is a genius

but someone who isn't the jedi master is going to win the election.

But it sure was fun watching him play 3 dimensional chess to their game of checkers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I am mostly referring to President Obama but David Axelrod is a very bright man.

I am mostly referring to President Obama but David Axelrod is a very bright man. He hitched his star to Barack Obama early.

But Barack Obama was sui generis.

-young
-charismatic
-vibrant
-handsome
-telegenic family.

Plus his diverse background made it somewhat easier to move between different ethnic and racial groups.

[artislife]

43. So was I!

President Obama has a massive intellect and plays the long game. We are lucky to have had such a man at the helm.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. It takes a great deal of skill for any minority in an executive position to...

It takes a great deal of skill for any minority in an executive position to navigate America's religious, racial, and ethnic divide and to convince the members of all these disparate groups you are their friend and ally...

[SheilaT]

38. No. I am not saying any politician can repeat his feat.

What I am saying is that the common wisdom is often wrong. It was wrong at this point in 2007 about Obama. I believe it's wrong at this point about Bernie.

More to the point, I find the blind enthusiasm for Hillary on the part of so many to be scary and naïve. People who support her just don't understand how widely hated she is, especially among the religious right. There are still a surprising number of people who don't believe women have any place in public life, let alone as President. Especially if she's running as a Democrat. Especially if she has the baggage that Hillary Clinton has.

I don't think she has the toughness to make it through a Presidential campaign. Her two Senate races were essentially walks in the park. A national campaign would be vastly different. Bernie, on the other hand, is used to being scorned and ignored and labelled a socialist. A Jew from Brooklyn who moves to Vermont, becomes mayor of its largest city and then goes on to Congress, that's someone whose been through more than one bruising campaign.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

I don't think she has the toughness to make it through a Presidential campaign. Her two Senate races were essentially walks in the park. A national campaign would be vastly different. Bernie, on the other hand, is used to being scorned and ignored and labelled a socialist. A Jew from Brooklyn who moves to Vermont, becomes mayor of its largest city and then goes on to Congress, that's someone whose been through more than one bruising campaign.

Hillary Clinton is one of the strongest women I have ever seen in the world, and in person. She has been called ugly, a liar, a witch, a bitch, untrustworthy, a lesbian, the mother of a bastard child, and she hasn't flinched.

I am a guy... If those charges were leveled at me I would tell the people leveling them to perform an anatomically impossible act on themselves.

Another woman would have cracked under the pressure of being married to a man as unfaithful as Bill Clinton but she stayed with him because their marriage represented something larger than the sum total of his infidelities.

In fact even her most ardent detractors don't deny her toughness... That's why they use the unpleasant word that rhymes with itch to describe her which is just another word for a woman they can't push around .

[JoePhilly]

3. In the primary, go for it!

And if your preferred candidate wins great, if not, suck it up and keep the GOP out of every office possible.

Extremely simple and logical.

[zappaman]

27. Exactly.

I mean, I voted for Dukakis!
DUKAKIS!!!!
Knowing full well he had no chance, but I'll be fucked if I ever vote for a Bush.

[TexasBushwhacker]

31. I agree

Hindsight is 20/20, but I confess I voted for John Edwards in the 2008 primary.

[florida08]

4. the latter

[Metric System]

5. You vote for whoever you want and for whatever reason(s).

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. I'm voting for both. Cause he is. nt

[cpompilo]

7. Win Bernie Win!

[Cheese Sandwich]

8. Luckily in this case they are the same candidate.

[brewens]

9. I'm voting for who we need to win. Bern baby Bern! n/t

[hrmjustin]

10. A mixture of both.

[99th_Monkey]

11. Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader! Nader!

That's the Hillary echo chamber you are hearing.

[retrowire]

12. i dont mean to bother you

but I'm 27 and this election is admittedly my first rodeo.

would you care to tell me about Ralph Nader and what this post means exactly? this is not snark, I promise.

feel free to pm me an answer if you'd rather!

[99th_Monkey]

20. Nader was the Green Party's candidate in the 2000 GE, running against Al Gore (D) and George W. (R)

"Ralph Nader ran in the 2000 United States presidential election as the nominee of the Green Party. He was also nominated by the Vermont Progressive Party[1] and the United Citizens Party of South Carolina.[2] The campaign marked Nader's second presidential bid as the Green nominee, and his third overall, having run as a write-in campaign in 1992 and a passive campaign on the Green ballot line in 1996." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader_presidential_campaign,_2000

Nader was mainly popular among the far-left wing of the Democratic party, and Gore (rightly or wrongly) was seen by some as the "establishment Dem. candidate". Nader only garnered 2.74 percent of the popular vote, but is was enough to anger Gore supporters, enough for them to blame him for Gore's "loss" to GWBush; never mind that it was SCOTUS that heavy-handedly aborted the Florida recount midstream, a recount that would have given the election to Gore had it been allowed to continue.

This^ is not just an opinion, as some diligent lefty researchers later determined from the actual voter rolls that this was the case; i.e. Gore actually won Florida, and would have won the presidency had not SCOTUS intervened.

Anyway, so ever since 2000, establishment Dems. have used Nader as a scare tactic, to disparage Left-of-center Democrats or Independent from challenging the status quo, now called "3rd-Way Dems". I just saw an example of that today, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=638595

Of course Nader's name isn't mentioned, but the inference is there, to which I replied:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=638646

I hope this is clear enough to be helpful.

[retrowire]

42. very helpful thank you! eom

[HooptieWagon]

21. Ralph Nader ran in 2000 (and a few other times)...

He pulled in under 2% of the vote, but the corporatist wing of the Democratic Party likes to blame 'the left' for Gore losing. Never mind that Gore ran a lousy campaign, responded poorly to the republicans during the recount and court cases, couldn't even win his home state, and there was a RW candidate siphoning votes from Bush. Nope, none of that matters... The RW corporatist Dems take 'the left' for granted when Dems win, and blame us when Dems lose.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.

John Quincy Adams

[artislife]

24. Perfect...yet again! nt

[HassleCat]

22. That's good logic but...

I agree with your logic, but I'm not sure it helps answer the question. Both Clinton and Sanders could win. Some people feel Clinton should win, and others believe Sanders is more deserving. I feel Clinton and Sanders both stand about the same chance of winning the general election, so the "can win" thing is not a question for me. I favor Sander because he consistently agrees with my stand on the major issues, and because he represents a chance to get the big money out of politics. And other things, but that's the core of it.

[Armstead]

26. They dont have to be mutually exclusive

[NCTraveler]

30. You present it as a dichotomy when it isn't.

I will vote for the person I feel is best suited to move the things I care about forward.

[GoneFishin]

37. I'll vote for the best person for the job. If everybody did that the right person would win. Peeing

your pants because you are too scared that you might be on a losing team is a waste of energy and makes you vulnerable to manipulation.

Objectively assess the issues and vote for who represents your interests best, and ignore the mind fockers.