224,000 Slaughtered Needlessly

[last1standing]

224,000 human beings slaughtered as a direct result of a YES vote for the Iraq War Resolution- a war based on lies, bigotry, and political posturing.
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

But those hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children can be waived aside as "a mistake."

0 lives lost as a direct result of a YES vote on the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, yet untold innocent lives spared due to its provision for MANDATORY safety locks on handguns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

But the congressman who voted for it is lambasted as an accessory to murder.

Please explain to me how that works?

[Duckhunter935]

1. yep, astounds me

[djean111]

2. I know.

But then people who say a politician cares for women and children, but refuses to sign a ban on cluster bombs - evidently are immune to cognitive dissonance.

[Scuba]

3. + 1,000

[last1standing]

4. So many major positions Hillary has been wrong on.

It always amuses me (in a very sad way) when yet another Team Hillary supporter says "She said she made a mistake" but doesn't explain how she's learned from it.

Libya anyone?

[sabrina 1]

17. Anyone who now tries to excuse the massive war crime that was Iraq, what it did

to women in Iraq eg, who before the Cheney/Bush war crime destroyed their country and their relative decent infrastructure actually had more rights than we did, equal pay eg, were professionals, doctors, lawyers, teachers etc, have now been returned to the dark ages, can never claim to support women..

Nor do they have any iota of standing to attack anyone who voted AGAINST that disaster and explained why.

And each time they try to make something of Sanders position on guns, which is btw, held by a majority of Americans so not going to harm him at all, whether anyone agrees with it or not, I will remind them of a decision that was so wrong, that caused the needless deaths of millions, because people are still dying and many will continue to die babies being born so deformed etc, that they cannot survive as a result of our WMDS.

Mentioning the gun laws is going to trigger a reminder to the people of that awful decision, which was the day, btw, Hillary lost my support.

[Indepatriot]

5. A quarter of a million lives is just the price

that had to be paid to maintain HRCs "Presedential Viability" ...oopsie!

[boston bean]

6. Who did you vote for in 2004?

Were your principles set in stone then, or did you compromise them?

[last1standing]

7. In three threads you've tried to deflect from Hillary's vote to slaughter 224,000 people.

If you can't justify her cynical and self-promoting vote for that disgusting act, then just say so. Then I'll answer one of your many, many deflections.

[boston bean]

16. And you continue over multiple threads to support a person for president

who voted for some of the worst pro gun legislation and voted against the Brady bill.

Many people, have been slaughtered right here in the US due to the gun issue. Am I to presume you are responsible for them all or don't give a crap about them because you intend to vote for a person who has helped in his own way to make it worse?

I won't do that to you, but if you keep on with this measuring stick, I will insist you use it on yourself.

And if you voted for Kerry in 2004, you have already compromised those principles you hold so dearly, and also are probably responsible for all those deaths as well. Again, this is using your measuring stick.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Bernie voted for gun control and against the Iraq war and his civil rights record is superior.

Seems like an easy choice to me, one is a progressive and the other is a moderate.

[boston bean]

23. I disagree. I think his record on guns sucks.

And I think he panders on the issue to his voters in VT.

[beam me up scottie]

26. I disagree with your claim: Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

Hillary pandered to gun owners in 2008 and attacked Obama for his pro-gun control stance:

Hillary hits Obama on faith, guns

Yesterday, Clinton hit Obama for calling Pennsylvanians "bitter," ground on which he fairly ably engaged.
Today, she's onto the other half of his San Francisco remarks, in which he linked economic frustration to clinging to religion and guns (the part he sought to walk back this morning in Muncie, Ind.).

"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt — and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/04/hillary-hits-obama-on-faith-guns-007747

Bernie voted against the Iraq war, Hillary fought for it:

[MindfulOne]

69. Attempts to smear Sanders with his gun votes depend upon a profound ignorance of the laws.

An awful lot of rhetoric involves oversimplification and the Sanders gun vote is just such one.

And it's a waste of time to argue with the Hillary fans who launch these empty attacks, but it's a real service to explain the details for other readers and I think you and other members for that.

Sanders gun record is sound, including his vote to hold manufacturers harmless for the bad acts of gun owners. That kind of legal workaround is bullshit. If a firearm is dangerous due to a fault in design or manufacture, that's one thing. But it's quite another to hold the gun maker liable for the violent and illegal use of their product.

Sanders was right on that one and every other law related to firearms, which is why the NRA gives him a low score.

What bullshit from the HRC camps, shame on them.

[zalinda]

12. I've been compromising

since Jimmy Carter. Who I voted for twice, once from a hospital bed. For every other Presidential candidate, I've held my nose.

Z

[LiberalArkie]

20. ^^^^^^^^^

[sabrina 1]

18. Obama, because he had opposed the Iraq War. Never even considered anyone

whose judgement was either so poor that they made such horrible mistake, or worse, who actually was in favor of it.

And now we learn that it was even worse. Hillary apparently wrote that it was 'time to start looking at Iraq as a business opportunity'.

When I think of Iraq, and I promised myself back then never to become complacent about that massive crime based on lies, I think of the photos of the dead children in Fallujah, lined up on the side of the road, their faces burned off.

And of the father running with his injured daughter, holding her like a rag doll and all of the other photos that, despite Cheney/Bush's best efforts, thanks to photo journalists like Dahr Jamail and a few others, managed to reach the world, the little boy Ali who lost his arms and legs on the very first day and he was one of the 'lucky' ones.

I do NOT think of business opportunities, I think of how on earth do we prevent this from ever happening again?

[boston bean]

19. You voted for Obama president in 2004? I can't read beyond that claim with seriousness.

[DanTex]

8. 300,000 gun deaths in the last 10 years. And Bernie votes with the NRA on their top

legislative priority, to give the gun industry legal immunity. And who knows how many more would have died if Bernie had gotten his way in his vote against the Brady Bill.

It's way past time for him to admit his mistakes.

[last1standing]

11. You mean the one that made hand gun safety locks mandatory?

That bastard!

But keep deflecting from Hillary's disgusting and cynical vote.

[DanTex]

14. LOL, yeah, that's why the NRA wanted it so bad. Nothing to do with the legal immunity.

[last1standing]

41. Can you point to one death directly caused by that bill? Just one?

No, you can't because it didn't put a single gun into the hands of a single person. But it did get mandatory safety locks put on handguns so that there will be untold lives saved from accidental discharges.

Yet I can point to 224,000 lives directly lost because of Hillary's vote to send troops into Iraq with absolutely no provocation.

If you can look at those two facts (not opinions, facts) and still justify attacking Bernie while making excuses for a war hungry candidate, that says everything any sane person needs to know.

[DanTex]

51. Now you're playing the NRA's silly game.

We do know that tightening gun laws reduces gun deaths. But, no, I can't tell you exactly which ones of the hundreds of thousands would definitively have been prevented had the lawsuits that PLCAA thrown out been allowed to continue, and the gun industry had been forced to change its business practices to be more conscious of gun violence, as was happening until Bernie voted to stop that.

And I also can't tell you exactly which of the people who didn't get killed by a gun would have if Bernie had succeeded in thwarting the Brady Bill.

In general, I can't tell you exactly which of the gun violence victims would have survived had Bernie not been part of the NRA's firewall against gun control for all these years. But there are many.

[last1standing]

52. You either have no clue what the PLCAA did or you don't care so long as you can smear Sanders.

It's most likely the latter, of course.

One thing is abundantly obvious, you don't have the slightest problem with Hillary's vote to slaughter 224,000 innocent people and leave millions without homes.

[DanTex]

53. I know exactly what PLCAA is, and I know exactly why the NRA wanted to stop it, and I know exactly

the kinds of lawsuits that were succeeding and the effect it was having on the business practices of the gun industry.

Hint: google Smith and Wesson.

As an aside, it's truly embarrassing that people here are trying to defend PLCAA simply because Bernie voted for it. It was so obviously a horrible bill (which is why it was the NRA's top legislative priority and it passed with mostly Republican votes), but Saint Bernie was in favor, so it must be OK after all.

[last1standing]

54. Ha! This coming from the poster who's been smearing Bernie's wife.

Your assertions have no credibility because you have spread so much bullshit and unfounded innuendo over the last few months.

I believe you do know what is in the PLCAA but that won't stop you from making up lies in your silly attempts to destroy the reputation of a very good man.

So how about those 224,000 innocent people killed by Hillary's vote for IWR? Care to mention them at all? Do you not care about all those innocent dead women and children that Hillary claims to work for? Why don't you want to discuss the millions of women and children now without homes, without food, pushed into slavery and prostitution, all so Saint Hillary could look tough on TV?

Why won't you mention all those slaughtered people?

[DanTex]

55. LOL. Changing the subject, huh. Gee, I wonder why?

I'd be happy to discuss his wife's disaster of a tenure, her golden parachute, and Bernie's silence about the whole debacle in another thread.

So have you googled Smith and Wesson yet? Do you even care what PLCAA was about, or is it just "Bernie good"?

[last1standing]

61. You should think twice before writing. You'd look less foolish.

the 224,000 innocent lives taken away by Hillary's vote IS the subject.

Why won't you even acknowledge the 224,000 that Hillary condemned to death with her cynical vote? Do you not care even a little bit? Is it because they're brown? I'm not accusing, I'm asking.

[DanTex]

62. You'd look less foolish if you stopped pretending that PLCAA was anything but a

giveaway to the NRA and the gun industry. I'm not defending the Iraq War. But you are defending PLCAA. In fact, in the OP, you even tried to paint it as some kind of pro-gun-safety bill because of the safety lock provision they tacked on in order to make it more palatable to centrists.

Totally absurd, but then that's what I've come to expect.

[last1standing]

63. So you won't acknowledge the 224,000 brown people Hillary voted to slaughter?

Do you know what it says about you that you won't even mention them? Why won't you mention the 224,000 innocent brown lives destroyed so that Hillary could look tough on TV?

Why are those 224,000 so unimportant that you won't even acknowledge they died?

[DanTex]

64. I have acknowledged that. The Iraq War was a disaster. How many times do I have to say that?

The only person in denial here is you: you want to pretend that PLCAA was something other than a giveaway to the NRA, because doing otherwise would require admitting that Bernie made a (serious) mistake when he voted for it. A mistake he hasn't yet acknowledged. Instead he doubled down with the NRA talking point about the hammer.

So, do you acknowledge that?

[last1standing]

66. The slaughter of 224,000 innocent brown people was a simple mistake?

Forgetting to add sugar in a pie is a mistake. Voting to slaughter 224,000 innocent brown people for a good photo-op is dereliction of duty, at least.

And if it was a mistake, why did she repeat it in Libya then laugh about the slaughter in an interview?

Why is she pushing to make the same "mistake" in Iran and Syria?

How many more innocent brown people does Hillary have to destroy before she has to give you more than an "oopsie?"

[DanTex]

67. You keep ignoring the PLCAA question. Wonder why that is?

See, the difference between you and I (and Hillary and Bernie supporters in general), is that I am able to recognize poor decisions that Hillary has made in the past. You, on the other hand, feel the need to ignore or justify Bernie's poor decisions on things like PLCAA and the Brady Bill.

[last1standing]

68. So you agree that the slaughter of 224,000 innocent brown people was a "poor decision."

What about all the poor decisions she making with regard to Iran and Syria? Why does she want to send more troops for more slaughter there?

Why are you supporting someone who wants to make the same "poor decision" to slaughter brown people over and over again?

[sabrina 1]

21. Millions of lives still being lost in Iraq, torture approved, and btw, Hillary sort of, maybe,

approved of torture, 'under certain circumstances' so would 'keep it on the table as an option just in case' another reason why I could never support her.

And Hillary voted with Cheney/Bush to give them the awesome power to go invade a country that was never a threat to this country, then WORSE, later stated in writing, that it was 'time to view Iraq as a business opportunity'.

Your gun thingy isn't having the least effect on anyone but your own candidate, mainly because Sanders' position on guns is in line with a majority of Americans. And because it raises the spectre again of her disastrous Iraq War vote which actually contributed to one of the worst war crimes still ongoing, in recent history.

So keep up the talking point, I don't ever want to forget Iraq, which I promised myself I would not do way back then. So it helps to be reminded from time to time.

[DanTex]

24. Both were bad votes. Hillary has admitted her mistake. Bernie? Not so much.

He's still defending it with NRA talking points comparing guns to hammers.

[sabrina 1]

30. There is simply no comparison, but keep up the good work. I remember Iraq, the dead

babies, the murdered and raped women and children, the lies that could not have been mistaken for facts by anyone who was listening.

I do not talk about Iraq every day, but I do keep up with the reports, which are horrendous, predicted by Bernie Sanders and Byrd and the few others who had the judgement and foresight to vote against it.

But I have never forgotten those images and won't and I appreciate every opportunity to make sure we do NOT forget.

Because no decent society SHOULD forget such a horror of human rights abuses, putting it pretty mildly.

And to even TRY To compare a vote on gun control in a country were WMDS were approved for use on innocent men, women and children, is going to so harm Hillary if I were a nasty person, I would be doing it myself in order to stop her from winning the nomination.

But since her own supporters are bound and determined to do that themselves, go right ahead and I will remind myself and everyone else why we must NEVER allow another IRAQ to take place in our names.

[DanTex]

33. True, they are very different issues. Both serious, but different.

I'd like to see Bernie come clean and admit his mistakes. Hillary's done that. Bernie's still using the old NRA talking points.

[sabrina 1]

34. No, you can continue to try to compare the two, but no one is listening, there is simply

not an iota of comparison and I think we will have to now focus on this Iraq debacle, because it scares me to death to listen to Hillary on war.

[DanTex]

36. I just said they were different. Are you saying gun violence is not a serious issue?

As far as "no one" listening, you should realize that not everyone agrees with you on everything.

[sabrina 1]

49. They are different, there are simply no words to describe the human horrors inflicted on

innocent men, women and children by those who supported the massive war crime, genocide actually, perpetrated by one of the worst administrations in the history of the US.

Anyone who was unable to see the sheer evil of these people, is not fit for elected office.

There really is evil in this world, I used to avoid that word, but Cheney/Bush, Rice, Ledeen, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, to any decent person they personified the word.

And no person with a shred of decency, judgement, honor, was unaware of the sheer evil these perps were capable of.

WE KNEW. Ordinary people KNEW they were frothing at the bit to use our WMDs on innocent people and every decent person in this country and around the world, tried desperately to stop them.

It was worldwide, the opposition to the evil they were planning.

Sanders voted against it, he didn't believe them.

But Hillary? Stop trying to minimize the slaughter of people in a country we had no business in, because there is no way to diminish the horrors, the rapes, the murders, the torture.

I have nothing more to say, words escape me when I think of how we tried to stop them, but people like Hillary refused to help us, worse, she helped THEM.

Never Forget! remember that? I do!

[DanTex]

50. There are also no words to describe the human horrors of gun violence.

And, like Obama said, we as a society are choosing to allow this to happen. Every other advanced country has dealt with this problem, they have a small fraction of our number of gun deaths.

[sabrina 1]

57. Yes and thankfully we have a candidate who will do something about it, not just talke during

election season.

What has been done about the brutality within this country over the decades? What has been to stop the killing of American Citizens by our very own cops over the decades?

Airc, Hillary was FOR more cops, more 'tough on crime' policies, never once have I seen any proposed legislation from her to even investigate the murder of American citizens by cop throughout her political career?

And she was the Senator of a State where the most bigoted and brutal PD resides.

Nearly 800 Americans have been killed by their own PDs this year, by Isis 0! Yet we hear Hillary droning on about terror and all the usual rhetoric to justify our phony wars all over the world?

Perhaps she ought to try to protect Americans right here where they actually are in danger.

How about the over 500,000 Americans who have died for lack of HC since 9/11? Bernie wanted to stop that by providing HC to all Americans.

Hillary was for the 'for profit' HC system that caused this problem

As I said, I do hope her supporters continue with this ridiculous meme. I'm seeing it being demolished as it should be, everywhere I go with reminders of HER policies which is good because a lot of people I found as I talk to them, were totally unaware of, eg, what a war hawk she is.

[DanTex]

60. About gun violence? So he's evolved on the issue, huh.

Because last I heard, he was still defending those votes with NRA talking points about hammers.

[sabrina 1]

74. She has had to evolve on so many issues that it's at the point where even I wasn't

aware of her record on many issues. Her vote on Iraq and her words about Torture were all I needed to know during that terrible era when this country became the world's most feared and most disrespected.

Then her support for intervention in two more of the countries on the PNAC list of seven, proves she is a Third Way neoliberal all the way.

Facts are facts, making stuff up about OTHER candidates when you can't defend your own, is not going to change them.

Bernie's position on the violence in this country didn't need to evolve, he is where most Americans are so it's a losing issue for those attempting to use it against him.

[DanTex]

75. Is that a "yes", he has evolved? I'm still not clear. Does he still think gun companies deserve

special legal immunity?

[last1standing]

58. 224,000 innocent human beings slaughtered for a photo-op and you won't even mention them.

Get back to me when you can bring yourself to at least acknowledge all those killed so that your candidate could laugh make jokes about slaughtering people on TV.

Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton. The war lust never ends.

[DanTex]

59. The Iraq War was horrible, I agree. Gun violence is also horrible.

I acknowledge that Hillary's IWR vote was a bad vote. You can't acknowledge that Bernie's NRA votes were bad votes. Can you?

[last1standing]

71. Hillary's "bad vote" led to the slaughter of 224,000 innocent brown people.

Her push into Libya led to thousands more.

Her sabre rattling at Iran and Syria promises even more.

I don't think the brown people of this world can afford too many bad votes like that. Hillary never met a war she didn't want to send troops to.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Sanders Voted for Background Checks and an Assault Weapons Ban

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

Hillary pandered to gun owners in 2008 and attacked Obama for his pro-gun control stance:

Hillary hits Obama on faith, guns

Yesterday, Clinton hit Obama for calling Pennsylvanians "bitter," ground on which he fairly ably engaged.
Today, she's onto the other half of his San Francisco remarks, in which he linked economic frustration to clinging to religion and guns (the part he sought to walk back this morning in Muncie, Ind.).

"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt — and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/04/hillary-hits-obama-on-faith-guns-007747

Bernie voted against the Iraq war, Hillary fought for it:

[DanTex]

29. And against the Brady Bill, and for legal immunity.

If he's evolved on the gun issue, he should say so, instead of trying to defend his votes with NRA talking points.

[beam me up scottie]

31. I agree with him on the immunity and Hillary agreed with him on letting states do background checks.

So your talking points are just more of the same BERMIES A GUNZ NUT meme coming from Camp Weathervane.

[DanTex]

35. OK, so you agree with him. I'm sure some people agree with Clinton on Iraq.

Part of Bernie's strategy is to appeal to social conservatives with centrist policies on social issues like guns. Me, I'm a liberal across the board. But, yeah, people have different opinions on things.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Seriously? Who on DU agrees with her vote for the Iraq war?

And when it comes to social issues Hillary's the centrist, not Bernie.

Sorry but you don't get to back the self-proclaimed moderate and claim she's progressive.

[DanTex]

39. There are people in the world who don't post on DU.

And, no, Hillary is not centrist on social issues. She didn't vote for Bernie's giveaway to the NRA and the gun industry, for example.

[beam me up scottie]

40. She opposed marriage equality until 2013, supported a ban on late term abortions

and is pro-death penalty.

She also lobbied for her husband's crime bill which Bernie only voted for because it included the Violence Against Women Act and a ban on assault weapons:

The Vermont senator has been an opponent of the death penalty for his entire political career. And with one exception, he has voted against expansions of the death penalty at every turn.

...

In 1994, however, Sanders voted in favor of the final version of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, a bill that expanded the federal death penalty. Sanders had voted for an amendment to the bill that would have replaced all federal death sentences with life in prison. Even though the amendment failed, Sanders still voted for the larger crime bill.

A spokesman for Sanders said he voted for the bill "because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons."

Sanders reiterated his opposition to capital punishment in 2015. "I just don’t think the state itself, whether it’s the state government or federal government, should be in the business of killing people," he said on a radio show.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/02/viral-image/where-do-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-stand-/

Yes, she is the centrist, Dan.

[questionseverything]

46. people agree with clinton on iraq? just cheney

[sabrina 1]

32. Hillary voted for the Massive Crime in Iraq AND stated that we 'should start thinking of Iraq

as a business opportunity'. To try to compare these things, to be defending CheneyBush in any way, is going to harm Hillary almost more than any of the other talking points that have spectacularly failed and only benefited Bernie.

This one will definitely remind anyone who forgot, that Iraq and those who voted for it, never can be forgotten, the crime was so great that we must make sure never to allow it to happen again in our name which means making sure to elect those who had the good judgement and foresight to vote against it and to make sure we elect more people like Bernie to prevent such a horrific crime from ever occurring again.

Thanks for the opportunity to remind people of that awful travesty of justice, for which there still has not been consequences, but one day there will be even if it is only how history is written about the Perpetrators and their enablers.

[DanTex]

38. Those two are unrelated. The IWR vote was a mistake, and the "business" comment from 2011

was a SoS promoting American businesses abroad, which is part of the job of the State Department.

[sabrina 1]

45. Please do not call a massive crime of huge proportions 'a mistake'. Torture, Hillary

responded to whether or not she supported torture with 'no, except under certain conditions' stating that as President, she would keep it as an option, in case of a circumstance where it might be needed'.

After her Iraq vote, and the speech she gave for her reasons for casting that fateful vote, I lost all respect for her judgement and when she ran for the WH supported the candidate who had had the judgement to oppose it.

A mistake is buying butter instead of margarine. A crime is the killing of hundreds of thousands of human beings.

Did the Republicans make a mistake also, Cheney, Bush who also insist they 'believed' Iraq had WMDS?

You are correct, these two are so far from being related wrt to the harm done, that it will be necessary to continue to point this out, each time the gun vote question arises so that people can compare who they believe made a worse decision.

As I said, I'm glad that each time I see this ridiculous claim about Bernie, I remember the children of Iraq. I note too that the brown children of Iraq are rarely mentioned or thought of by the same people who also shamefully play the race care regarding a man whose whole life was spent fighting for the Civil Rights of all Americans.

War, our Imperial Wars are racist to the core. Yet the same people who claim to be so 'concerned' about racism, are not attempting to excuse those who helped perpetrate the racist war crime in Iraq.

This is not a good tactic for Hillary, she is not in a good position to be cast as someone who is against 'gun violence' or 'WMD violence'. Not by a long shot.

[MindfulOne]

70. Make your best argument, right now, for why a manufacturer should be held liable for misuse.

Explain why a company that makes a legal product, a rifle or a stapler or a hammer or a bottle of bleach, should be held liable for when a criminal uses one of these things in a violent fashion.

You CAN'T, but I would LOVE to see you try.

Go for it.

[valerief]

9. But don't wealthy people deserve to profit off war? Why are you anti-American?

[whereisjustice]

10. Let's start a war and see what happens... oops, her bad. Now she wants to be President?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. And, Hillary calls it just a "mistake" after not just voting for but vocally supporting it.

Forget the wars. Forget the deaths. Forget the torture. Forget the collaboration with the Republicans. Forget the collaboration with the corporations. Forget the pursuit of whistle blowers. Forget the poor. Forget the persecuted. Forget the police state that resulted from it.

It was just a mistake.

[Broward]

15. Cut Hillary some slack.

A no vote would not have played well on Fox News.

[RiverLover]

28. Nor would Exxon have liked it, after all the money they'd given to the Clinton Foundation.

Hillary Clinton, the Clinton Foundation, and Business in Iraq
https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2015/10/02/hillary-clinton-the-clinton-foundation-and-business-in-iraq/

[beam me up scottie]

27. K & R!

Bernie has proven he's pro-gun control while Hillary has proven she's still a war hawk.

Instead of attacking Bernie who supports gun control legislation DUers should be going after the Republicans who do the NRA's bidding.

If they really cared about the issue that's what they'd be doing, imo, instead of blaming Bernie for gun deaths.

[last1standing]

42. It's amazing that not one of her supporters will say she was wrong to vote for the IRW.

None of them will admit it was wrong to push for war in Libya. None will admit that it's wrong to sabre rattle against Iraq last month or war monger against Syria now.

Hundreds of thousands slaughtered, millions upon millions torn from their homes and sent into poverty, slavery, and subjected to deprivations. Europe in turmoil as middle-eastern refugees flee the destruction and fundamentalist jihads her "mistakes" have caused.

And all they can talk about is a law that led to not one single person being harmed. A law that has likely saved hundreds if not thousands of lives from being lost to accidental discharges.

I don't know how some people can say the things they do and not wither up in shame.

[beam me up scottie]

43. You really nailed it in this thread.

I'm sick of being told that Iraq is ancient history.

[last1standing]

44. Thanks. I'm just fed up with "supporters" who don't even know what they're supporting.

And if they do know, they can't justify it so they deflect from it. It would be shameful to anyone with an ounce of shame left in them.

Instead these "supporters" smear and tell lies about a candidate who stood up against the mass killing of innocent lives because he knew it was wrong, just like Hillary did.

Politics is a dirty game but if a person is willing to defend the slaughter of 224,000 human beings just so that their candidate could look tough on TV, we're not on the same side.

[Mnemosyne]

47. KnR nt

[sabrina 1]

48. Never Forget! n/t

[last1standing]

65. No, we must NEVER forget!

I'm sure the alert squad will have me locked out of this tread soon, but I lost loved ones to Hillary's vote to slaughter 224,000 innocent human beings. I won't forget or forgive, especially when she did it again in Libya and is trying to push for more slaughter in Iran and Syria.

Hillary is just as war hungry as John McCain. We can never let someone like that back into a position of power.

[sabrina 1]

72. It's hard to forget too after what they've done in Syria and Libya so no, I definately

want someone in the WH who will fight these war mongers, not facilitate them.

People haven't forgotten, I know they wish we would, but that just shows how little respect they have for human lives.

[Cheese Sandwich]

56. That's kind of a low estimate

Scientific surveys:
Source Estimated violent deaths Time period
Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths March 2003 to June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict March 2003 to August 2007
PLOS Medicine Survey[2] Approximately 500,000 deaths in Iraq as direct or indirect result of the war. March 2003 to June, 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties

[polly7]

73. I believe that number is very low.

Iraq Body Count did not go door-to-door to get real statistics as others did - they depended on figures obtained by reporting of news services. Multiply it by 4, at least, imo.

Then add in all of the additional death d/t the violence and further bombings ever since that have never stopped, the brutality of IS created by the vacuum left behind, the miscarriages, infant mortality, sickness and death of those most vulnerable to the chemicals, the children seeing un-exploded ordinances left behind as toys, and on and on and on. The thousands of deaths of regugees who had fled to Syria, dying trying to leave the horror there now.

It's much, much more than your figure, imo.

[last1standing]

76. I agree with you and Cheese Sandwich. My number is very, very low.

But it's also more verifiable and I didn't want to give those who want to dismiss Hillary's incredibly heinous vote any wiggle room on the matter.

Sadly, I've yet to find a single Hillary supporter who will admit that her vote to slaughter 224,000 (actually many more) innocent brown people was more than "a mistake," a "bad vote," or a "poor decision." That shows you how much the supporters of the candidate who bragged about her "hard working white folk" base actually care about people of color.

[polly7]

77. I wasn't dismissing your opinion at all, I agree with you ....... for everyone who went

along with the invasion (I don't call it a war) and who claimed they couldn't have known what millions around the world knew and protested against right from the start - it just doesn't seem plausible.

Iraq Body Count started something good, but they weren't able to collect much of the data others did, imo.