Can we PLEASE stop dissing Democrats?

[NastyRiffraff]

Like many others, I have been saddened at appalled by the level of discourse on DU regarding Democrats running for President.

Okay, I'm talking about Hillary. If she's "visibly angry" everybody knows she lacks empathy, doesn't show emotion so this must be fake, etc. etc. Unless, of course, she "loses her cool" "proving" that she can't control her emotions. How un-Presidential! She's been called a liar, a crook, a hypocrite, not by Republicans, by right here on DU. No one can post anything positive about her without a storm of angry DU'ers immediately harping on some point or other.

A couple of points: I'll probably vote for Hillary in the Primaries. However, I would never insult Bernie or any other Dem running the way some DU'ers have piled on Hillary. (BTW, I know that Bernie has been insulted also, but not close to the amount and level of vitrol aimed at Hillary.) And a pledge: I will vote for the Democratic nominee in the general election, whomever that may be. I actually like Bernie and would be proud to vote for him.

I know I'm asking for the impossible. I remember all too well the primaries in 2012. Everybody of course has a perfect right to lobby for his or her preferred candidate, but can we at least try to keep the conversation civil? Please?

[zappaman]

1. In before the inevitable pile on.

Likely to focus on the word "pledge".

Nothing wrong with your post or intentions, but it will fall on deaf ears.

[tech3149]

7. Not falling on deaf ears here

But I have to ask is it something that needs to be said? I don't follow every thread on the candidates and avoid those that have inflammatory titles. That puts me in a position of not knowing all the stupid and argumentative comments made to deride the candidate the poster doesn't support.
There are many reasons I support one candidate over the other and any post I make is based on historical reference about those issues I feel most important.
In the end I know I will vote for a Democratic candidate even if it is not my first best choice. The alternative is unthinkable.

[zappaman]

8. "The alternative is unthinkable."

[el_bryanto]

2. No Bernie has been left alone; it's just his supporters that are accused of being

indifferent to racial issues and gender issues. It's an interesting question about what is worse - attacking someone who is in the public eye and who's made a career that you might agree or disagree with, or attacking people who are enthusiastic about a candidate but who presumably aren't politicians and don't have that training.

Bryant

[CrispyQ]

3. If it bothers you, you just have to learn to stay above the fray.

It's not gonna stop until the primaries are over.

[-none]

4. That dissing of Democrats comes because of those that

wear a (D) on their purple or Red jerseys and claim to be middle of the road, main stream Democrats.

[99Forever]

5. You want my vote?

I ask questions and talk about what you have done, how you did it, question your motives. Then I decide if I'll support you. It's called the democratic process.

If you don't like it, I really don't care.

[upaloopa]

9. That is not what the OP is referring to.

Or maybe you are just sugar coating the vitriol that is being turned on Hillary by some DUers.

[99Forever]

12. Bullshit.

Same whine, different day.

[upaloopa]

22. Sorry not interested

[99Forever]

25. Really?

You were"interested" enough to try taking a cheap shot at me.

Does it cause you to lose interest when someone doesn't just let you get away with that?

[upaloopa]

28. Still not interested. If you support Bernie

you have nothing I want to hear. Go tell someone who cares

[99Forever]

29. Really? Again.

An uninterested person wouldn't keep responding.

Perhaps you have no self-control, eh?

[upaloopa]

42. You respond when I say I am not interested

Who lacks self control?

[99Forever]

58. And again. Really?

You really can't help yourself, can you? Fascinating.

Did I say I was uninterested? Or did you? Hmmmmm?

[upaloopa]

62. Putting you on ignore

[99Forever]

70. Ahhhh noes!

[JDPriestly]

35. There you go.

"If you support Bernie you have nothing I want to hear."

Anything said by a Bernie supporter is interpreted as unfair and not worth hearing.

And there is the problem.

There isn't much negative to say about Bernie. He is just Bernie.

He opposes the TPP.

Bill Clinton signed most of these awful trade agreements that have destroyed our industrial base and pushed our small towns and small businesses into bankruptcy.

How can we possibly be positive about a candidate who counts as HER experience 8 years in the White House in which those trade deals, ranging from most favored nation status for China to the WTO to NAFTA were signed?

Hillary supporters are unrealistic about the problems with their candidate.

That's the real problem.

BILL CLINTON signed NAFTA in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

BILL CLINTON also extended favored nation status to China in 1994.

Friday, May 27, 1994

Clinton Grants China MFN, Reversing Campaign Pledge
By Ann Devroy
The Washington Post

http://tech.mit.edu/V114/N27/china.27w.html

It was followed by the dot-com boom.

And then, three years after the signing of NAFTA and in spite of the dot.com boom, our manufacturing sector steadily declined.

Other important dates.

We joined GATT in 1948. All went well until the oil crises of the 1970s.

We joined the WTO in 1995 and Clinton signed on.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/usa_e.htm

For those who are interested, here is a list of the countries with which we have trade agreements:

The United States has free trade agreements in force with 20 countries. These are:

Australia
Bahrain
Canada
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Guatemala
Honduras
Israel
Jordan
Korea
Mexico
Morocco
Nicaragua
Oman
Panama
Peru
Singapore


https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

More information on our free trade agreements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements

1985 -- free trade agreement with Israel including Palestine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements

George W. Bush signed CAFTA.

As Ross Perot said, and I did not believe him, after NAFTA we heard that sucking sound.

We Clinton fans failed to listen to Ross Perot in the '90s.

And now Clinton fans have deaf ears when it comes to listening to the problems with Hillary.

We have paid dearly for Clinton's signing on to so many trade deals.

And we will pay dearly if we put another Clinton into the White House in 2016.

The stakes are too high to be silent and polite.

We need Bernie Sanders in the White House. The sooner the better.

Feel the Bern!

[sabrina 1]

19. I hope the OP is talking about how Bernie has been called a White Supremicist along with his

supporters. Not to mention using known racist 'authors' themselves being posted here to slam Sanders.

I could go on, however it is NOT being done by most Hillary supporters, just a few who now apparently have their own website where there are no limits on them, unlike here where they have had their posts rightfully hidden, blaming, guess who, for their OWN nasty out of control behavior.

So I agree with the OP. I do not attack other candidates, I do talk about their policies and histories as politicians.

But if someone personally attacks him and/or his supporters, they can expect a response. And when anyone compares me personally, to the old Soviet Union, I will definitely respond to such personal attacks.

My preference is for everyone to stick to the issues. I don't care about Hillary's email or any other issue that is not related to what kind of president she would make.

Overall I agree with the OP. The level of political discourse needs to be elevated on this forum.

[artislife]

47. As if the H supporters are little angels.

[99Forever]

60. Not just Angels....

... but po' po' put upon, Innocent Victim Angels.

[juajen]

64. I have you know, I am a certified angel.

Watch it.

[beam me up scottie]

6. "level of vitriol aimed at Hillary"?

Sure there has been vitriol aimed at Hillary but nothing compared to what's been said about Bernie.

According to DUers he's Israel's #1 shill, a racist, gun nut, tool for the NRA, Republican man with his head between women's legs, who protects the minutemen militia, pedophiles, racist cops, has rape fantasies and thinks that orgasms prevent cancer.

[sabrina 1]

21. Wow, those are despicable, and if all of Hillary's supporters who do not engage in such

smear tactics were to condemn them, that would at least show that it is just the same few and not get all of her supporters a reputation for being part of this despicable garbage.

[m-lekktor]

23. Yeah I roll my eyes at these OPs that imply only one side is doing it.

Disingenuousness to the extreme.

[beam me up scottie]

33. There have been low blows but most of us have been posting facts about her record.

To some quoting her own words is an "attack" and "bashing".

[NastyRiffraff]

44. I never said only one side is doing it.

In fact, I said specifically that Bernie, too, has been attacked, but not on the same level as Hillary. You, of course, can dispute the level of attacks, but please don't say I implied only one side is doing it.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. You clearly stated 'I'm talking about Hillary'. I'd say 'I'm talking about both candidates' because

that's what I see and what I see every fucking cycle. You see and present one side as more attacked, but it is the side that made their own website to attack Bernie and his supporters, so you have a steep case to make.

[riderinthestorm]

68. I took a look at that site for an hour or so. Unbelievable :(

they call DUers stuff that's common on CC or FR. Some of their name calling is worse.

These are folks who I thought were friends here...

I haven't committed to any candidate but everyone on DU is now smeared universally there.

It's pretty sad. I don't like the hideous slams here or there. In the end, we're all on the same side right?

Sigh

[beam me up scottie]

57. Yep. And if they are unaware of those attacks on Bernie they shouldn't be lecturing anyone.

[Alittleliberal]

53. Also with rare exception

The criticizem of Hilary at DU is legitimate. With the exception of a few trolls when people talk about the Email "Scandal" (Which the rest of us don't give a fuck about other then the poor handling of it from HRC) all of our complaints come from real issues. HRC hawkish policies, pro business stances and focus group tested campaign are all things I imagine most of us have been criticizing all politicians about for years. My favorite part about the whole campaign so far has been when we used to criticize centrist Democrats we were told to wait till the primary and help nominate someone who more closely supports our views by the same people now telling us to just give up and accept Bernie will never win. This place is the fucking twilight zone sometimes.

[beam me up scottie]

54. Indeed.

It's like falling down the rabbit hole.

When someone compares Hillary to Bernie and claims that she's one of the "most liberal" candidates you know you're on the other side.

[Maedhros]

10. I have no personal animosity toward Hillary.

I just think her policies and record are terrible and that she would be a terrible President.

[jeff47]

11. The vicious 2012 primary where Obama ran unopposed for reelection?

Methinks you don't remember it all too well.

[m-lekktor]

24. Oh good I thought it was just me

who didn't remember that.

[Scuba]

13. Like many others, I have been saddened at appalled by what passes for a Democrat today.

[Broward]

14. Not until some Dems stop supporting policies that screw over everyone except the 1%.

[CharlotteVale]

15. [phone]

[olddots]

16. okay I'll stop

as soon as some of them start behaving like Democrats.

[Bloofer]

17. I agree

I agree we need to get along

[lovemydog]

18. Three cheers for that.

It really makes it a bummer reading here when so many trash other democrats.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Tsk. Tsk.

[doc03]

26. I agree 110%. The garbage I have seen here about Hillary is far worse than I have

even seen from the Republicans. I will vote for who ever wins our primaries, but I don't how these Hillary haters could turn around andvote for her after the trash talk here.
If the Republicans need ammunition to attack Hillary all they need to do is read DU.

[upaloopa]

27. I think DU gets a lot of it's anti Hillary stuff from

the repubs.

Well I am grateful for all those Bernieites who stood up and condemned the House Select Committee on Benghazi when it was shown to be a partisan attempt to lower Hillary's poll numbers. All you Bernie supporters who attacked the Benghazi three ring circus stand up and take a bow! Hello? Anyone? Bernieites? Hello?

[doc03]

50. There were some who condemned the House

Select Committee on Benghazi? I missed them I guess. Sure there has been some trash talk from Hillary supporters
but they are outnumbered 10-1 from the Bernie people.

[Alittleliberal]

55. 95% of the people who criticize HRC do it from her left.

Are you saying Republicans are to the left of Hilary?

[Jim Lane]

65. The McCarthy revelation revealed nothing to anyone who'd been paying attention

You write about "the House Select Committee on Benghazi when it was shown to be a partisan attempt to lower Hillary's poll numbers." It was shown to be that the day it was created. I don't think any DUers were surprised by the substance of McCarthy's statement. The only thing that was shown was that he'd momentarily let his guard down and committed a gaffe, i.e., accidentally telling the truth.

[Chan790]

30. No.

Some of these so-called Democrats don't deserve the peace and decorum of not being "dissed" for their positions and actions.

[leftofcool]

32. You are right. I am going after bernie a lot harder on his gun stance.

He does not deserve peace or decorum on gun issues.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Since he's pro-gun control what exactly will you be "going after" him for?

If this is such an important issue shouldn't you be "going after" the Republicans who are owned by the NRA?

[Chan790]

37. Fair enough.

As I gun owner (pretty much a necessity living in mountain wilderness unless you're badass enough to fight a bear or bobcat or hypothetical mountain lion. (We have mountain lions; CT DEEP denies we have mountain lions...but I have pictures and used to work with wildlife. I know what a mountain lion as opposed to a wild dog (that they claim most mountain lion sightings are) looks like at 50m.))...anyways too much digression...I wish his position on guns was stricter in favor of gun control.

I live in CT. I've seen it first-hand. Strict gun control works.

[mahannah]

31. Disrespect,no. Criticize, yes.

[JoePhilly]

36. Democrats are like yippy dogs.

We run around barking at the same bone, and at each other, until we all get tired. And collapse.

At which point, the GOP's Dobermans, stop licking their chops, walk up, and take the bone.

Its what we did in 2000.

And its what we risk doing again in 2016.

Apparently, the hole GW dug was not deep enough. Either that, or, some of us secretly want to let the GOP destroy the country completely, because that is necessary to usher in the Progressive utopia we all dream of.

After we clean up all of the dead bodies naturally.

[JDPriestly]

43. Bernie wrote an e-mail this morning pointing out these facts:

Since 2001 we have lost 5 million decent-paying jobs and 6,000 industrial plants.

Bernie Sanders' e-mail of today.

Now Hillary has really very little experience in government, certainly not enough to qualify for the White House unless you count her years in Bill's White House and her time as the wife of the governor of Arkansas.

But then you look at Bill Clinton's record on trade -- the trade that is destroying America's small businesses and small towns and in many cases our lives -- and this is what you see.

BILL CLINTON signed NAFTA in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

BILL CLINTON also extended favored nation status to China in 1994.

Friday, May 27, 1994

Clinton Grants China MFN, Reversing Campaign Pledge
By Ann Devroy
The Washington Post

http://tech.mit.edu/V114/N27/china.27w.html

It was followed by the dot-com boom.

And then, three years after the signing of NAFTA and in spite of the dot.com boom, our manufacturing sector steadily declined.

Other important dates.

We joined GATT in 1948. All went well until the oil crises of the 1970s.

1985 -- free trade agreement with Israel including Palestine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements

Bill Clinton joined the WTO in 1995,

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/usa_e.htm

(As an aside: Remember how the WTO court has ordered the US to prohibit identifying meat by country of origin. Do I want to eat pork grown in China? No. My grandfather had hogs, and I know a bit about their eating habits and I do not want to eat Chinese pork. And China is not the only country on my list of countries of origin whose pork I do not want to eat.)

The United States has free trade agreements in force with 20 countries. These are:

Australia
Bahrain
Canada
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Dominican Republic
El Salvador
Guatemala
Honduras
Israel
Jordan
Korea
Mexico
Morocco
Nicaragua
Oman
Panama
Peru
Singapore


https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

More information on our free trade agreements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_trade_agreements

With each trade agreement, we hide our consumption of dirty fuels and our contribution to the death of our planet.

Americans have good reasons to oppose Hillary Clinton's nomination and election.

One good thing we can say about her candidacy is that she would be better than the Republicans on social issues. When it comes to trade and the economy, I'm not sure what she will do.

And I am not even going into the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the "reform" of the welfare act, etc.

What precise posts and comments are Hillary fans so upset about?

Or is it the Clinton record they can't deal with?

[Persondem]

49. Really! Twice in one thread. why don't you make your own OP out of it?

Then we can all flash back to 1996 cuz it's obvious that you're opposed to BILL Clinton's bid for reelection. Of course nearly all of your post has NADA to do with HILLARY Clinton.

[JDPriestly]

63. I did post it as an OP -- twice. I think this is important.

Hillary's total relevant experience for her White House run consists of being elected to two terms in the Senate and her time as First Lady in the White House and as the wife of Bill Clinton, governor of Arkansas.

The voting and other record that she is running on in terms of actual yea or nay on issues is very small. We have had presidents like George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan who had only served as governors before being elected to the White House, and look at the result.

I think that Bill Clinton's record is what Hillary is running on. It is not unfair in my view to assume that Hillary agrees with that record. What else is she running on other than that she was Secretary of State for four years, not an elected office, not an office in which she voted yea or nay on a variety of issues including domestic issues.

And she was Secretary of State while the TPP was being negotiated.

Bill Clinton's record is relevant since it is about all we have to represent Hillary's record.

[Chan790]

45. Conversely...

Vote Hillary: "We had to destroy the America in order to save it."

Exactly how is it better to elect someone who willingly, nay enthusiastically, capitulates to conservative positions and policies rather than a Republican that actually espouses those same conservative positions and policies?

There is no choice at-all in a binary decision between Hillary and the GOP. She's the contrast between white and white.

[JDPriestly]

38. Could you please identify specific posts or at least statements that you find objectionable?

I'm wondering what Clinton supporters consider to be an insult.

Because in my view the facts, the honest facts about the Clintons, and I am thinking, for example about how they have earned so much money and the trade agreements and bills that Bill Clinton signed and how they have hurt America, I can't understand how Clinton supporters can want her in the White House.

It's just beyond me how anyone can vote yea on the Clinton record.

So please tell me what kinds of posts and what specific posts are offensive to Clinton supporters.

[U of M Dem]

39. I am perfectly OK with "getting along" with other democrats,

so long as they are not establishment, DLC / Third Way, or republican-light in their views, because in that case they are only pretending to be democrats (DINOs) and don't deserve my time.

Sorry to say that HRC fits into that category explicitly and I do not support "working with" the champions of the 1% to compromise on social and economic injustices (the war on the poor, mass incarceration, the drug war, MIC, the disappearing middle class). I will not be nickeled and dimed by the 1% by small reforms while the TPP is passed, more wars are brewing (Iran, Syria etc.), and while money remains in politics.

That is not a "personal attack" or uncivil, it is just politics.

The country is, (and has been for awhile now), swinging to the left. If that leaves those DINOs exposed as money grubbers or in with wall street, and people genuinely react with disdain: that is not a "personal assault." It is a real reaction to actual things that are happening in the world.

Some may see the resulting criticism this as "vitriol," I see it as justifiable anger at a system that serves the oligarchs (money determining policy) when they were expecting to see a democracy serving the people.

HRC is the dynasty candidate and we simply cannot afford another of her caste.

We are in great need of an alternative path and the candidate representative of this is Bernie Sanders.

[taught_me_patience]

40. The "camp weathervane" shit is getting real old

and really doesn't have a place on this discussion board.

[m-lekktor]

41. you really meant "Can we please stop dissing Hillary?" nt

[Chan790]

46. And the answer to that is a resounding "No." n/t

[Scootaloo]

51. The Chris Crocker wing of the party has spoken!

[solar Max]

52. I'll be voting for Sanders in the primary, but I agree with you

It remains possible that HRC will end up with the nomination, and bashing her only benefits the Republicrap Party.

[Chemisse]

56. My sentiments exactly.

And welcome to DU!

[solar Max]

69. Thanks!

And now, I'm ready for some football.

[ColesCountyDem]

59. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

If his campaign is still alive by the time the Illinois primary comes around, I will likely vote for Sen. Sanders, but I absolutely refuse to participate in any way, shape, fashion or form in trashing Sec. Clinton. Furthermore, if she gains our nomination, I will bust my a** to see that she wins in November '16.

[Thinkingabout]

61. Even in this thread the vitriol continues.

[TheKentuckian]

66. I'll stop telling the truth about them when they cease to resemble it.

Until such a time the letter by their name only matters to me in that they make me sick that I'm supposed to be associated with those hacks.

[Bill USA]

67. your point is well taken. because of the level of meaness and invective I have to wonder if what we

... see is the work of RFBs: Repubicans 'for' Bernie.
[font size="+1"]]
I'd be more impressed by Bernie supporters if they didn't parrot GOP McCarthyist campaign innuendo[/font]

Your request for reasonableness in promoting one's candidate is welcome, alhough Bernie supporters (RFB - not Democrats) will say you're a fiend for making it.

[MisterP]

71. if they stop pushing TPP, stop pushing H1B, stop piddling the seat at the thought of Qaddafi's death

Last edited Tue Oct 6, 2015, 03:54 PM - Edit history (1)

stop voting for IWR, stop threatening Iran ...

[betsuni]

72. I tried counting how many posts were pro-Bernie and/or anti-Hillary

and saw 33 before getting tired near the end of the GDP page and quitting. About 9 were pro-Hillary and/or anti-Bernie. That seems to be about the usual proportion. Can people not see this? And isn't it a little embarrassing to be dishing it out in such huge servings and then bursting into tears when a spoonful is waved in your general direction? I like both candidates and refuse to waste all my freaking-out energy now, I'm waiting until the actual election against the real enemy, Republicans. And here is the part where someone calls me an authoritarian or married to Hillary or something mean.

[Andy823]

73. Many here feel the same way as you do

Dissing other democrats instead of simply posting the positive things about the candidate you support is not the way it should be done. Sadly it is the same group of long time Obama haters who are at the core of all the BS being slung. They have been joined by many new posters who love to stir the shit up, and who have joined both sides of the "war" of the candidates. It's complete insanity to say the least.

[uponit7771]

74. Americas government is "the problem", Americas middle class is worse than under Bush or "getting...

... there" and everything is about to go to hell yesterday.

This is what the anti establishment candidates have been saying for months...

Why should the dems be excempt?

tia