Brigham Young’s Great-Great-Granddaughter on Mormonism and Mitt Romney

[Lucy Goosey]

As for what pundits say is Romney's difficulty connecting with people, Emmett blames it largely on what she calls “the entitled Mormon male syndrome, where the leadership professes compassion and concern but leaves the manifestations of that to the drones. All male leadership is not this way; there are some wonderful men who do their best to exercise their power compassionately, but many do not.”

Emmett says Romney was a bishop, “a position where everyone defers to you. What a bishop says goes. People come to them to receive blessings.” He then became a stake president, she says, which means he presided over several congregations, and at that point bishops deferred to him.

“Mitt has had people defer to him and not challenge him his entire life,” says Emmett. “In the Mormon church if you challenge your priesthood leaders it’s a very bad thing to do, especially for women. As the world can now see, Mitt has a very hard time with being questioned and criticized; he’s had so little of this in his life."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/07/exclusive-brigham-young-s-great-great-granddaughter-on-mormonism-and-mitt-romney.html

I know that not everyone thinks his religion should be part of the discussion, but I find this very interesting and relevant. I absolutely don't think the Democrats should go after Romney's Mormonism, obviously, but I think there's value in articles like this.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. This brittle aspect of his personality has been obvious, although

I didn't fully understand the Mormon connection. I thought that it most likely arose from being rich, protected & insulated from th lower classes while being taught that wealth is the measure of worth.

Regardless of whether his Mormon history has anything to do with it (I am now persuaded it probably does), the Dems ought to be coming up with morte clever ways to prompt additional entitlement-based responses from him. The kind of arrogant authoritarianism that apparently flies in Mormon circles will not serve him well in the eyes of the general public.

[DCKit]

47. Even if it was about that, and I don't buy that excuse...

He was born win a silver spoon in his mouth. It was HIS choice to replace it with a shoe.

Regardless, it's why the Rmoney campaign doesn't know how to respond to the Obama campaign - the help has never questioned them before. They're in a tizzy.

He's not fit, not qualified, to lead the U.S.. It all comes down to that. His own sons said as much.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying the break from the insane emails from my teabagging family members. They're so conflicted over Rmoney, they're in a huddle that could last for months.

[earthside]

2. Insights into character.

Personally, I don't care much about the theology of Mormonism vis-a-vis a candidate.

However, how an individual practices religion or lack of religion certainly provides an insight into that person's character.

Nixon was a Quaker ... but I don't know that he ever went to Quaker meeting for decades. Jimmy Carter was a Baptist, and his tolerance and liberalism caused him difficulties with his church -- that told us a lot about the kind of person he is, and why he ended up with a Nobel Peace Prize.

Rmoney strikes me as a pretty dedicated and committed Mormon, and that is probably why he doesn't want to talk about it very much (and another reason why he doesn't want to release his tax returns). That probably means that he and his wife subscribe to the more regressive and repressive parts of that particular religion.

In other words, if Rmoney was a 'jack Mormon' (as we called them in Wyoming) who was only a nominal member of the church, well, it wouldn't matter much. But as he appears to be an active, involved LDSer, then the practice of his 'faith' matters in figuring out what kind of leader and 'governor' he would be as President.

And I think that is fair game for debate and discussion.

[Scuba]

39. Good post, thanks.

[Jim__]

3. I think his religion does matter given what she says about the White Horse Prophecy and ...

... lying as an institutionalized method of control within the church. Given that Mormons want to bring theocracy to the US:

Regarding Romney and the presidency, Emmett cites a bit of Mormon lore called the White Horse Prophecy that has floated around since the time of Mormon founder Joseph Smith. It suggests that Mormons believe a time will come when the U.S. Constitution is eroding and Mormon leaders will save it and usher in a new theocracy with Mormons in charge. ...

and that "Lying for the Lord" is an official policy:

Emmett says the notion of “Lying for the Lord,” as it has been called, implies that teaching the whole truth about the church should be avoided. At a presentation on Lying for the Lord at the 2008 Exmormon Foundation conference, Ken Clark addressed the issue. Clark, who worked as a teacher for the LDS Church Education System (CES) for 27 years and also served as a bishop before leaving the church in 2003, tells The Daily Beast, “Lying has become an institutionalized method of administrative control with the church.”

and that Mitt is known to be a liar, the American people would be well advised to consider Romney's religion and it's political beliefs..

[amuse bouche]

10. Not a fan of religion on general principle

but Mormonism creeps me out more than Scientology

[SunSeeker]

11. +1 nt

[xxqqqzme]

20. Yep the creep factor

is off the chart for me.

[kestrel91316]

29. As it should. They seek Mormon theocracy in the US, but are very secretive in

their efforts, and take the very long view. Like the Dominionists.

[marew]

30. Me too!

And I live in an area where Scientology is active! Some of the stuff Scientology has done here has no place in "religion"!

[ieoeja]

36. The two appear to be very similiar.

Both seem to embrace the idea that ends justifies the means. Mormans believe in "Lying for the Lord". Scientology believes in using blackmail to force people to "be good".

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. "Mormonism creeps me out more than Scientology"

Case in point:

[img][/img]

A brother and sister singing love songs to each other.

[alterfurz]

42. Ed Abbey on Mormonism:

Nothing so hilarious could possibly be true. Or all bad.

[Stainless]

44. Lying Mormons

I'm not a Mormon and I've lived in Utah for my entire life. The one thing that disgusts me the most about Mormons is the way they look you straight in the eye and lie. Mitt Romney is a perfect example of how they do it. He is a vile person.

[southernyankeebelle]

4. This article kinda validates what I see with Mittens. He seems not really to take womens issues

as important issues. He has said on the trail that his wife "tells him" this or that about women. Well he should be asking women their needs, not is wife. She always speaks for him on womens issues. It's like he can't be bothered. When he does talk to women in a group it's looks like he is talking down to them. Like women aren't important enough. Women need to know their place.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. Some seem to think all things Mitt should be off limits. His high ranking in a secretive religious

organization with massive holdings, off limits. His business record at Bain, off limits, his taxes, off limits, his family (w/ 100 million dollar trust) off limits even when they are active politically.
In my view, when a person wants to be POTUS, nothing is off limits. Ever. Those who pander to the right by longing to protect Mitt from inspection have many excuses, but their basic message is 'leave Mitt alone'.

[Frustratedlady]

8. That probably should say, "You people leave Mitt alone!" Just sayin'. eom

[KurtNYC]

9. Support for Mitt is moderately broad but very thin.

In polls the biggest reason people support Mitt is that they hate Obama. That isn't the same as liking Mitt.

Certain subjects can be very distracting and counter-productive. Anything that seems like an attack on his religion or his wife is an unproductive quagmire. The perspective shared by Young's great grand daughter is informed and focused. That is far better than attacks by non-Mormons which come across as bigotry.

The best stuff to use against Mitt is the stuff that Team Obama is using -- taxes, Bain and policy flip flops. Ultimately the election is about trust and character and Obama has him beat by a wide margin on those.

[nichomachus]

6. If he's going to base policy on religious beliefs, then his religion is important

If he's going to base policy on the Constitution and the law, then his religion is unimportant.

[WinstonSmith4740]

16. Your post is spot on.

You're absolutely right. I just got back from a family re-union back east, and one of the things I got to see was the Kennedy Library in Boston. (By the way, if you ever get the chance, GO!) He had the same issue with being a Catholic. The Republican Party at the time made a big deal of him being more faithful to the church instead of the law.

Here's the difference. Kennedy met the issue head on...his speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association can be found here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600. Romney won't talk about his membership in the church, much less his leadership positions in it, and is basically running from it. Suddenly, after 4 years of the wing-nuts calling Obama a foreign born, secret Muslim who hates America, NOBODY is supposed to talk about whether Rmoney will respect the carved in stone American doctrine about the law being the final word.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican.

[nichomachus]

22. And it's important to remember

That while Kennedy was Catholic, he wasn't an official in the church. He had no leadership position. Romney was a bishop and a stake president.

Also, in those days, the Catholic church didn't demand that you enforce Catholic doctrine in political positions. That's changed as the church has swung to the far right, but in those days, it was more relaxed about it.

Another interesting note. I have a friend who was an evangelical minister. In fact, he was being groomed to be in the forefront with people like Billy Graham, etc. He has since come out as gay and is no longer religious.

However, he told me that as a young seminary student, the evangelical position was that they should not be involved in politics at all. They should merely concentrate on getting people "saved" and leave the political system alone. That, as we now know, has changed dramatically.

[WinstonSmith4740]

37. So true!

Especially this:

Also, in those days, the Catholic church didn't demand that you enforce Catholic doctrine in political positions. That's changed as the church has swung to the far right, but in those days, it was more relaxed about it.

Now nuns are being chastised for NOT being more active in the anti-gay policies of the church, instead of doing things like, y'know, helping the poor.

[braddy]

45. JFK did not seek the Pope's permission to run, Bishop Mitt, Stake President Mitt,

who was son of a Bishop, was the equivalent of a Catholic Bishop, and he sought the permission of his Holy Prophet to run for President.

Bishop Romney is something we have never seen in a nominee, a powerful, high ranking religious leader within a secretive, business oriented "unique" religion.

JFK was just a regular Catholic, not a Bishop, Mitt is also a 'Temple Mormon', the only ones allowed into those magnificent (and expensive) Temples and who are forbidden to speak of the ceremonies inside.

[KaryninMiami]

48. But no one has really attempted to address this head on with him

I am not saying it is ok to attack him on this - one's religion is a private and personal issue. But considering the amount of shit thrown at Pres Obama over his religion and demands that he demonstrate his Christian faith, I think questioning Romney - direct, clear questions regarding his religious based values and about the beliefs of his religion are and should be fair game. Mr Romney- what does it mean to be a "good Mormon?". How are women viewed by and treated in the eyes if the church? And maybe even question how it happened that his grandfather migrated to Mexico. In the same way JFK took integr questions about his faith, so too should Romney. His values will indeed, affect how he will govern.

[qb]

7. Poor Mittens was born in the wrong century and on the wrong continent.

He would be much more comfortable ruling a monarchy.

[hue]

32. Actually monarchy is close or a near goal of the 1%/oligarchy!

Mitt's personality profile is similar to others in the top 1 or 2 %.

[arbusto_baboso]

12. I've been saying this for awhile and been called a religious bigot.

Never mind the fact that I used to be mormon and have seen "the beast" from the inside, as it were.

Mitt is a monster, and it isn't just his wealth and privilege that has made him so. Mormonism had a large hand in it, too.

Anyone who doubts me just needs to read Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven. That will show you what mormonism truly is.

[oxymoron]

46. +1000

Mormonism is a dangerous cult. They isolate their members and discourage association with non-members. Mormon kids above 16 go to church for 1 1/2 hours every morning before going to school. You are then expected to go on a mission, get married "for time and all eternity" in a temple (that non-member family members may not attend - I missed both of my sister's weddings), and then it's time to "be fruitful and multiply". I have a cousin that had 17 children by the time she was 42.

And I can assure you, it wasn't a place for a gay kid. It's extremely harmful to gay youth. Took me a while to get past that aversion therapy. It also tore my family and many others apart.

I consider The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a truly evil organization.

/rant


~oxy

Now a long practicing Zen Buddhist _/l\_

[BSUbluNorange]

13. Not true about what about challenging leaders being a very bad thing to do

Both my mom and a close friend (also a woman) have had Bishops do some things they didn't agree with and have worked through both instances by going to the Bishop's superior, the Stake President. Coincidentally, my mom's Stake President is a died in the wool Democrat and a great man.

While I'm sure it happens occasionally, my experience is more often than not a challenge to a priesthood leader can be taken care of a number of different ways. Mitt may have been that type of a leader, but portraying most church leadership in this aspect is not accurate (i'm referring mostly to that statement in the last paragraph.

Also, check out one of my favorite blog posts from a Mormon Dem Bishop for those who are interesting in his thoughts on political neutrality in the church (http://welcomingtheother.blogspot.com/2012/07/politics-and-facebook_09.html). He's a great example of a good Bishop, he's not infallible but doing his best like most of the leaders I've seen in the church.

[arbusto_baboso]

14. "a challenge to a priesthood leader can be taken care of a number of different ways."

Yes, usually by disciplinary action or a "court of love" against the offending member.

Don't kid yourself; your mother's experience is an extreme rarity in mormonism.

[Lucy Goosey]

15. What is a "court of love"?

(...and why do I have the feeling it isn't as nice as it sounds?)

[arbusto_baboso]

17. What they call excommunication proceedings.

Supposedly because they are showing love to the person disciplined.

[BSUbluNorange]

19. And you're background/experience/source for knowing this is a rarity is....?

[arbusto_baboso]

21. Uh, DUH, did you read my post?

I'm a former member, and have widepsread connections throughout the mormon church. My anecdotal evidence is at least as good as yours.

[BSUbluNorange]

24. Sorry, I didn't

Just did though, I'm sorry for whatever experiences you or others have had. Like I said though, my experience has been positive and only based on the two situations I mentioned in my original post. I still believe there is always a way to address any wrongs committed by a leader. Do I believe 100% of the time things are taken care of quickly and properly? No, these people are not perfect individuals. I do believe that a grand majority of the time things are taken care of though. I guess we've had different experiences but that doesn't make either of our perceptions wrong does it?

[arbusto_baboso]

28. Okay, so let me ask you this...

You know when ward/stake leaders or the prophet and twelve are 'sustained' by the members? You know how everyone raises their hand in assent? Have you ever know someone who raised their hand in opposition? If so, do you know what happened to them?

I guarantee you it wasn't pretty.

You're trying to put lipstick on a dead pig, and I won't let you get away with it.

[BSUbluNorange]

35. Never seen that happen

so it'd be hard for me to know that it ends ugly...

[Lucy Goosey]

23. It's also in the article linked above

Sue Emmett, Young's great-great-granddaughter, was a prominent member of the church for decades.

[Patiod]

50. Welcome to DU, BSU B&O

I mean that sincerely.

This has got to be a tough time to be a Mormon Democrat, but hey, you guys have got Give 'Em Hell Harry Reid as a role model.

I'm a former Catholic, and do a lot of Catholic-bashing here on DU, and I'm glad there are practicing Catholics here to call me out on some of my more broad-brush comments.

Many of us here won't agree with you on some of your defenses of the LDS, but we're glad your here to inform and discuss.

[BSUbluNorange]

51. Thanks Patiod! That was one awesome post

Appreciate the sentiment and understanding.

As far as it being a tough time to be a Mormon Dem I can honestly say that it's actually become easier. I think the fact that Mitt is so terrible and is a member of our church has actually galvanized the Mormons out there who are democrats. Our Mormons for Obama Facebook group is up to 500 members (that's invite only btw) and pretty active. While 500 ain't that many it's enough to make me feel better about things!

Here's to making the democratic party better by being the big tent that it is and each having our own unique backgrounds and beliefs. Thanks again!

[BSUbluNorange]

52. Oh one more thing

Go Phillies! (Served an LDS Mission in Philly and South Jersey, MISS THAT PLACE)

[xxqqqzme]

18. OMG -

Amway and LDS religion are organized the same way. I didn't know LDS had 'cells' - makes sense, I guess. Control is more complete if there are little cells feeding into larger ones.

Not being impressed w/ religions in general, I was less impressed w/ LDS primarily from knowing more than a few 'former' members over the years. It seems even more cult-ish to me.

[arbusto_baboso]

26. That's why Utah is the MLM capital of the the United States.

Of course, it also leads the nation in consumer fraud, antidepressant use, and on-line porn subscriptions.

So much for the "nice" image of mormons, eh? Of course, another poster in this thread will probably just blame it all on the "gentiles" and "apostates".

[kestrel91316]

25. I happen to think that this sort of thing (entitlement, expecting blind obedience, etc)

is fair game because it's highly relevant to the job he is seeking.

I had to deal with the Mormon power structure in junior high school, where the school principal was the local bishop, and when I questioned him he went ballistic (my family wasn't even mormon so he had no right to expect me to submit to his will as long as I followed school rules).

[heaven05]

27. yeah?

religious experiences ABSOLUTELY play a part in choosing a person who will lead the so called free world, and mitttwits business experience speaks volumes on its own right. What a joke the chickenhawk is.

[MADem]

31. Fascinating woman--looks a bit like her crazy GG gramps.

Clockwise from top left: A billboard advertising ex-Mormon support groups; a statue of Mormon pioneer leader Brigham Young in front of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Temple in Salt Lake City; Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney; ex-Mormon Sue Emmett. (Getty Images; AP Photo)

[Moonwalk]

33. This isn't about Romney's relationship to god, it's about his relationship with people....

His belief in what happens to us after we die or whether god forgives our sins or what prayers to recite when asking for god's blessing isn't relevant in the discussion of whether he'd be a good president--that's judging him by his religion--saying, "He can't be president because he doesn't get the sacrament" or "he has to be president because his religion is Christian and the other guy's isn't." But how he views women's rights, how he views science, how he views the position of president (as servant of the people or as dictator), that matters. And if any position of power that he held, anywhere, left him with distinct views on any of these--ones he shows in his actions or verbalizes--then they matter and can be discussed. They DO tell us what kind of president he will be.

I mean, hey, such influences are certainly of as much importance as the Rev. Wright's influence on Obama.

In short, we're not asking Romney about his relationship with god, we're asking him about his relationship with people. And he doesn't get a pass on being asked about such relationships just because they happened inside a church rather than in the public sector. If a former Catholic Priest runs for president, we're not going to ignore what he did in his time as a priest simply because all that took place in a church rather than in the secular world.

So saying this is off limits because it talks of religion is Apples and Oranges. It's not about religion. It's about the positions of power Romney held, how well he did that job, and what he learned from them.

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. What's scary is ...

If elected, what response would he have to another nation, friendly or otherwise, that does not defer to him.

He WOULD be the guy with with his finger on the button.

[Betty Jo]

40. WHAT'S REALLLLLLYYYY SCARY

What's reallly scary is Romney and Netanyahu lieing about their relationship.They both acted like they barely knew each other,but Netanyahu's second wife, worked for Bain, and Mitty and Netty worked for the same company in the beginning in Boston.Also,a Director of Bain is Ortig Gadiesh,who was born in Israel,daughter of a famous IDF General,and herself a former Israeli Intelligence Officer.All three amigos are Harvard Biz Grads.Israel-Iran is glowing red in the Mormon dogma stuff as well as the fundamentalists thoughts.How soon after Mitty took office would his nutty fellow travelers get him to kaboom Iran?The Rapture is evermost in Mormon doings.Thats why they baptize so many complete strangers,even dead Jews,so they can all go upupuuuuuuuuuuuuuupppppp in the Rapture.Add to this nonsense the strange Romney/Bain/Mormon investments in hospitals,medical diagnostic hard and soft ware companies ,DNA,gene whatevers,and the disposal of medical waste company,read aborted babies,and you can scare yourself silly.And all that boys and girls is why Rommney and Annie and Horsey don't want you reading their tax returns!

[1StrongBlackMan]

43. Okay ...

I am properly afraid.

I am really afraid when those that believe in, and see, the End Time as a good thing have the ability to bring about those End Times.

But I'm pretty sure ... Those believers are gonna get a front-row seat to the Battle's horror, just like the rest of us ... Not from the clouds.

[Scuba]

41. When you're running for President, NOTHING is off limits. Thanks for the great post and responses.

[otohara]

49. Bingo - Lying For The Lord

Damn, he's all about lying...

[mrs_p]

53. I, too, was inclined to say that religion doesn't matter.

But, in this case, it obviously does. A religion that wants to place one of its apostles in a position of world power to set up a theocracy scares the bejeebers out of me.

edit: major typo