Secret Service Agents Reveal Hillary Clinton Is A Nightmare To Work With

[Purveyor]

‘GOOD morning, ma’am,” a member of the uniformed Secret Service once greeted Hillary Clinton.

“F— off,” she replied.

That exchange is one among many that active and retired Secret Service agents shared with Ronald Kessler, author of First Family Detail, a compelling look at the intrepid personnel who shield America’s presidents and their families — and those whom they guard.

Kessler writes flatteringly and critically about people in both parties. Regarding the Clintons, Kessler presents Chelsea as a model protectee who respected and appreciated her agents. He describes Bill as a difficult chief executive, but an easygoing ex-president. And Kessler exposes Hillary as an epically abusive Arctic monster.

“When in public, Hillary smiles and acts graciously,” Kessler explains. “As soon as the cameras are gone, her angry personality, nastiness, and imperiousness become evident.”
He adds: “Hillary Clinton can make Richard Nixon look like Mahatma Gandhi.”

MORE...

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/secret-service-agents-reveal-hillary-clinton-is-a-nightmare-to-work-with/story-fnh81jut-1227555514640

[DanTex]

1. "Deroy Murdock is a Fox News Contributor."

National Review too.
http://www.nationalreview.com/author/deroy-murdock

And it looks like this article was originally in the New York Post. Evidently you looked for somewhere else where it was syndicated in order to avoid linking there.

[yeoman6987]

2. Lol. F off. I love it. Nobody is a morning person especially before coffee.

[orpupilofnature57]

5. They're all Misanthropic Sycophant Monsters, and MSM lets Hillary

slide.

[emulatorloo]

13. Thank God we have Newsmax authors and Murdoch reporters to tell us the truth!

[Skidmore]

16. And we have discerning reader who are ready to believe

any unsourced muck Murdoch, Inc. puts out there.

[COLGATE4]

6. Beat me to it. Impeccable credentials -

at least for a five minute diatribe on Shamitty.

[OilemFirchen]

15. news.com.au is owned by News Corp.

Probably comes as a shock, eh?

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. Have a problem with Fox News Contributors? How about the one who posts in the Hillary group?

You know the one... the guy who wrote the following in 2008, and put it out there for the WORLD to read?

One of the things you would expect of someone who really has good experience and judgment is that they can articulate a basic set of principles and positions on issues that they can run on and defend and that stay relatively static. I'm not saying you have to stick to them in the face of overwhelming evidence that one of your positions has been proven to be wrong, like George W. Bush does, even someone who has good experience and judgment occasionally changes their mind. That is not what we have with Hillary. Hillary gives a different opinion on the same subjects every couple of weeks depending on her audience and what she thinks it will net her. As evidence of this is now coming out and is going to be presented to the American people in the starkest terms, how can one be expected to trust her to do anything that she says she is going to do? How can one really know what she believes or intends to do about anything? The only things Hillary's experience seems to be good for is perfecting how to talk out of both sides of her mouth, engaging in the politics of personal destruction and other aspects of her ruthless pursuit of power that remind one of what a Karl Rove might do. That kind of person ought not to be the Democratic nominee.

[tblue37]

55. This BS is from RWer Ed Klein's new Regnery published book on Hillary.

Klein lies about anything and everything.

[Bobbie Jo]

61. Before I even clicked the OP

I knew this was going to be yet another RW source.

Geeze people.

[blm]

3. Ron Kessler????? Was Jerome Corsi busy???? Was Ed Klein busy???

Larry Klayman????

Ann Coulter???

[emulatorloo]

12. Yeah, weird to see a NewsMax author like Kessler being promoted on DU.

[Bobbie Jo]

63. Daily occurrence anymore. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

4. The sense of entitlement must be an added duty, Former first lady, senator, Secretary of

state it's nobody's fault it's just the way it is.

[emulatorloo]

7. Delroy Murdoch writes for National Review and Fox News

The original article appeared in Rupert Murdoch's New York Post.

Ron Kessler who wrote the book discussed in the article also writes for NewsMax.

You want to crawl into bed with that crowd have at it.

[orpupilofnature57]

34. No I don't or do I want Chuck Toad discerning the truth for me.

[emulatorloo]

44. No kidding!

[Armstead]

8. Since I criticized a similar post about Bernie, have to say this is not appropriate

Neither of them are running for Mr. or Ms. Congeniality.

Ought to lay off thus kind of second hand gossip

[Fawke Em]

10. I'll agree with you.

[blm]

21. Especially from RW propagandists. The attacks are increasing

against all Dem candidates. Apparent that RW lie machine is planting this crap to be spread at Dem sites.

[Luminous Animal]

25. 100% agree.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. Yep

in both cases, probably just a case of sour apples.

[cyberswede]

41. To say nothing of its doubtful veracity.

I *highly* doubt she told someone to "fuck off."

[demwing]

97. Agreed

serves nothing - not serious, and not funny either

[emulatorloo]

9. So says Rupert Murdoch's New York Post. See the byline:

Secret Service agents reveal Hillary Clinton is a nightmare to work with
OCTOBER 3, 20154:17PM

Hillary Clinton is a nightmare to work with, according to a new book. Picture: Reuters/Brian Snyder

DEROY MURDOCK | New York Post

[elleng]

11. 'That exchange is that active and retired Secret Service agents shared with Ronald Kessler,

author of First Family Detail,'

[moobu2]

14. Brought to us by Ronald Kessler, a recipiant of the Robert Novak Journalist of the Year Award

and a Newsmax columnist. What could go wrong.

[Bettie]

17. Inappropriate

not an issue either.

I am not a Clinton supporter, but this was written by right wing operative, so I'm not buying it.

[MoonchildCA]

18. I'm not buying it.

Last edited Thu Oct 8, 2015, 09:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Of course he says nice things about the two Clintons not running so he can sound like he's not biased.

Clinton is not my first choice, but this story rings of bull crap.

[potone]

32. I agree.

I don't believe it. Hillary has her faults, but rudeness is not one of them, and to behave in this manner to an agent assigned to protect her simply does not seem at all likely to me. This reminds me of the sleazy "troopergate" accusations against Bill Clinton.

Could we please avoid posting stories like this that come from right wing sources? They add nothing to a serious debate about our country's future and who should be president.

[sadoldgirl]

19. Whether it is true or not, I do

not think it very strange that HRC and SBS
have a short temper at times. I would think
that a lot of ambitious people do.

As a matter of fact the one part I admire
about the POTUS is his total coolness,
but none of us know him in private
moments, I suppose.

[Scuba]

20. No names, just made up shit, same with the "Bernie staffers" post.

[questionseverything]

88. actually there are several names quoted

Hillary was very rude to agents, and she didn’t appear to like law enforcement or the military,” former Secret Service agent Lloyd Bulman recalls. “She wouldn’t go over and meet military people or police officers, as most protectees do. She was just really rude to almost everybody. She’d act like she didn’t want you around, like you were beneath her.”

Former agent Jeff Crane says, “Hillary would cuss at Secret Service drivers for going over bumps.”

Within the White House, Hillary had a “standing rule that no one spoke to her when she was going from one location to another,” says former FBI agent Coy Copeland. “In fact, anyone who would see her coming would just step into the first available office.”

“She caught the guy on a ladder doing the light bulb,” says Franette McCulloch, who served at that time as assistant White House pastry chef. “He was a basket case.”
White House usher Christopher B. Emery unwisely called back Barbara Bush after she phoned him for computer troubleshooting. Emery helped the former first lady twice. Consequently, Kessler reports, Hillary sacked him. The father of four stayed jobless for a year.

//////////////////////

i have no clue if those people are being truthful but if none of them are getting sued for defamation i would say it is pretty factual, this hits close to home with me because i work for rich people, repubs even but they have always treated me well, i do not have to scurry behind a curtain to hide myself from them

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. How many times do I have to tell posters here...

How many times do I have to tell posters here the belief that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a Mafia dictum ?

[jeff47]

23. Feel free to remind this other poster of that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251657853

Since this post is a response to that one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Noted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=658097

[Cali_Democrat]

45. Paul Heintz is an enemy of Bernie Sanders? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. How come after I reminded you that we are exemplars to the world and need to hold ourselves...

How come after I reminded you that we are exemplars to the world and need to hold ourselves to a higher standard did our friend not acknowledge it after asking me to do so?


Also, the gist of my post was that we shouldn't align ourselves with the right by citing their information to bring down members of the left. I believe you used a neutral source.

[AtomicKitten]

24. "The Filthy Mouth of Hillary Clinton"

If they want to go there, let's go there.

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2013/08/25/the-filthy-mouth-of-hillary-clinton/

[senz]

46. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:11 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

"The Filthy Mouth of Hillary Clinton"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=658092

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Stop with the tabloid rags and right wing attacks already. This is just getting gross.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:27 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Dislike for a referenced source is no reason to hide a comment.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: These accusations seem to be too corroborated by so many different personnel close to her, I don't think we should brush such "dirty laundry" under the rug...
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Obvious unsubstantiated gossip is obvious.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It isn't personal. Leave it.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have worked with the Secret Service and was briefed (off the record) of the First Lady sometimes "being abrupt". And found Chelsea a very polite young lady. This was in 1996.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

-------------------------------------

Amazing that anyone would alert a comment that is not at all "disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate."

[AtomicKitten]

47. lotsa gnashing of teeth up in here

thank you

[AngryAmish]

26. This is very sexist.

[MADem]

28. This is hilarious--wingnut sources, wingnut sites, and "DUers" proudly bring it here!

Discredited Author Ronald Kessler Has Next Anti-Clinton Gossip Book


We know them by the company they keep, I guess.

[Autumn]

65. But this nasty piece of work by anonymous sources is just fine isn't it? And "DUers" proudly rec it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=1251657853&info=1#recs

Yeah we know them by the company they keep, here and elsewhere.

[MADem]

67. SEVEN DAYS is not a rightwing source. So, sorry--fail. HUGE FAIL. They've given Sanders some

VERY favorable coverage as well. Sample: http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/bernie-beat/Category?oid=2428243 Most of the links on that page are praiseworthy accounts that tout Sanders. This publication has a good reputation for veracity.

The author of the piece is a regular reporter for that paper, and he identifies the complainers as staffers.

If I had to bet, I'd bet you any amount that the people who are still on Sanders' staff know exactly who the complainers are.

OTOH, the SS guy dissing Clinton IS a lunatic, discredited, and a hate-monger. All he does is write freak screeds and conspiracy theories. His material has never been welcomed here at DU.

You've got google--you also have the capability to discern sources. The fact that you don't bother to do that, and you reach for some kind of faux equivalence, is very telling.

[Autumn]

70. The author of the other piece identified the complainers as Secret Service members who protect her

Maybe they told him the truth, after all a stopped clock is right twice a day. In both articles the people trashing Hillary and Bernie spoke anonymously. Maybe your site that you praise as a truthtelling publication got fucking lied to, hoodwinked or bamboozled. Not the first time that has happened The sources can't be verified in either article. You praise and believe the one trashing Bernie using anonymous sources and are pissed at the one trashing Hillary using anonymous sources and try to convince me the one about Hillary is bad because... nasty site!!!!and that's pretty telling on its own.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

[MADem]

72. The author you're cheerleading is a wingnut lunatic.

The guy who wrote the article on Sanders is not.

That's the difference, but do go on missing the point.

It speaks to your assessment talents. A little 'rofl' guy isn't going to turn a batshit crazy wingnut author into a credible journalist.

[Autumn]

75. No you are missing the point. in both articles anonymous sources were used.

Sources that are not named. Nasty is fucking nasty and anonymous sources are anonymous sources. No matter where they are written about. You are fine with a hit piece against Bernie using anonymous sources and want to discredit the same tactic against Hillary. That speaks much about you. And here's another just for you.

[MADem]

77. Noooooooo.....one author is "credible" and the other is a "wingnut lunatic."

You've got Google--you can look all by yourself!

Love that you're so aggressively planting your flag on this guy's shit reputation--I think I'll save your post for future reference, so you can't pretend you never backed that assclown author.

Autumn
75. No you are missing the point. in both articles anonymous sources were used.
View profile
Sources that are not named. Nasty is fucking nasty and anonymous sources are anonymous sources. No matter where they are written about. You are fine with a hit piece against Bernie using anonymous sources and want to discredit the same tactic against Hillary. That speaks much about you. And here's another just for you.

[Autumn]

79. Even if what is said about Bernie is true he's still

1000 times better than Hillary as far as I'm concerned. Cool, save it and save this one too. It would be great if there was a site where things like that can be saved and discussed by people like some here who need those things. Oh there is one!!! Now I'm done talking to you so you have a nice day, and by that I mean have a nice day.

[MADem]

81. My integrity means something to me--I will consider the source when someone says something I want to

hear.

If I think a source is sketchy, I will say so. But hey, you move your goalposts where you need to, and you have a nice day, yourself.

Autumn (23,847 posts)
79. Even if what is said about Bernie is true he's still

1000 times better than Hillary as far as I'm concerned. Cool, save it and save this one too. It would be great if there was a site where things like that can be saved and discussed by people like some here who need those things. Oh there is one!!! Now I'm done talking to you so you have a nice day, and by that I mean have a nice day.

[Autumn]

84. I don't see any integrity in liking your anonymous sources when they say something you want to hear

and not liking a source that says something you don't want to hear. But hey that's your version of integrity. I don't like anonymous smears being used against Bernie or Hillary but that just me And here's another to end the conversation with.

[MADem]

85. You keep saluting that flag you planted, now! ROFL and all....

Autumn
84. I don't see any integrity in liking your anonymous sources when they say something you want to hear
View profile
and not liking a source that says something you don't want to hear. But hey that's your version of integrity. I don't like anonymous smears being used against Bernie or Hillary but that just me And here's another to end the conversation with.

[KT2000]

29. Daily Mail had this

In this book Chelsea is considered polite and well -mannered. The day before they featured a book all about Chelsea that said SHE was a nightmare.
This is the anti-Clinton industry. You would think they want her to win because it is so lucrative for the haters.

[restorefreedom]

30. so the anonymous sources in the "bernie is a grump" article are ok

but these are suspect?

give me a break

why don't we just stipulate that all pols, all people really, have their moments and move on to the issues,

unless some don't want to discuss issues because they have to copy their progressive "positions" from someone else......

[Hortensis]

51. Yes. These sources are all well documented and understood.

Give yourself a break. The truth is what it is. We all have a duty to look for and accept it. Look for something else to attack her on. She's a decent woman, no angel, but a decent woman with many friends. So what does CHOOSING to believe lies in the face of all the evidence make of one?

BTW, note how balanced so many of those Bernie sources were. None of them were immoderate haters. Most said nice things about him too.

[Autumn]

68. Those were anonymous sources so just how well documented were they?

You do know why they are anonymous sources don't you? The horseshit lies can't be verified. You say

The truth is what it is. We all have a duty to look for and accept it.

but with anonymous sources the things said can't be verified as the truth. It hilarious how we have a duty to accept nasty things said anonymously against Bernie but not Hillary? Maybe the secret service agents who spoke anonymously trashing Hillary were telling the truth but really had nothing nice to say about her to balance it out

[Hortensis]

69. There are plenty of other sources who are not anonymous, Autumn.

Bernie was the mayor of a small town for plenty of time for everyone who cared to to get personal experience of him. And, of course, the Senate is also a "small town," where everyone knows him. His personality IS well known and well documented by many, both for its pluses and its minuses.

Personality matters. He is functioning far better -- so far -- as an iconoclastic candidate appealing to millions of angry people who don't know him than he ever did in the Senate among colleagues who do know him.

[Autumn]

71. I agree personality matters, and according to what I have head for years Hillary has a problem there

The people I know who have supported him for years seem to like him.

And those people in Vermont just keep electing him. Over and over and over. What the fuck is wrong with those people???????? I love the people in Vermont, the ones who know him and are proud of him.

[Hortensis]

74. As has been pointed out, many of the people saying things you

don't want to hear about him also have good things to say too. As you note, they did reelect him. So he can't be totally impossible.

The question is whether he has reached his level of (in)competence in the Senate. You're up for experimenting with the presidency. I am not.

[Autumn]

76. I have said nice thing about Hillary. The Secret Service from what I read? Not so much.

It's not an experiment, it's this little thing called Democracy, where you elect a President that represents the people and their needs. If the party is afraid of losing the presidency to a republican they should run and back better candidates that people want to actually vote for.

[questionseverything]

90. several sources are quoted by name

Hillary was very rude to agents, and she didn’t appear to like law enforcement or the military,” former Secret Service agent Lloyd Bulman recalls. “She wouldn’t go over and meet military people or police officers, as most protectees do. She was just really rude to almost everybody. She’d act like she didn’t want you around, like you were beneath her.”

Former agent Jeff Crane says, “Hillary would cuss at Secret Service drivers for going over bumps.”

Within the White House, Hillary had a “standing rule that no one spoke to her when she was going from one location to another,” says former FBI agent Coy Copeland. “In fact, anyone who would see her coming would just step into the first available office.”

“She caught the guy on a ladder doing the light bulb,” says Franette McCulloch, who served at that time as assistant White House pastry chef. “He was a basket case.”
White House usher Christopher B. Emery unwisely called back Barbara Bush after she phoned him for computer troubleshooting. Emery helped the former first lady twice. Consequently, Kessler reports, Hillary sacked him. The father of four stayed jobless for a year.

[JaneyVee]

31. Everyone who knows Hillary says she is the warmest, kindest person.

This is more nonsense from a tabloid.

[MineralMan]

33. More right wing sources?

Please stop doing this. Thanks.

[ibegurpard]

35. I have a tough time believing this

No one tells someone who wishes you "Good morning" to fuck off. I do love the idea of Hillary dropping f-bombs right and left though. I just can't imagine that she would be pointlessly cruel to anyone.

[shenmue]

37. People swear sometimes... Sounds pretty normal

Oh, my virgin ears!

[mythology]

58. I have

For about the first hour I'm awake, I don't want to talk to anybody.

[treestar]

87. Agree, sounds like she did not have her first cup of coffee yet

and was kidding him.

There's no way she could be as Kessler states - how would she have so many people willing to work directly with her to help her run for POTUS? She has to be inspiring to work for as would anyone who has a hope of winning.

[shenmue]

36. Hillary Clinton WORSHIPS SATAN AND EATS PEOPLE

Didn't you hear?

[reformist2]

42. She should have done that on SNL.

[ejbr]

38. After perusing the article

I found it to be too hyperbolic to be taken seriously...

[solar Max]

40. Listen to NastyRiffraff's Wise Counsel

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251648723

[dsc]

48. Your source, the author of the book being quoted, works for a website that literally calls for the

death of gays on a repeated basis. They literally call for gays to be executed both here and abroad. Why is this here? Why should anyone who is gay, or cares about gays ever trust a word you type ever again? Again, you are bringing fame and fortune to a person who works for a site that calls for gays to literally be killed.

[Logical]

49. I dislike hillary but think this is bullshit. Nt

[SidDithers]

50. The right hates Hillary. The fringe left hates Hillary...

and they don't mind using the same sources to attack her.

Sid

[Hortensis]

52. +1. Hardly the only similarity between both extremes, either.

[tblue37]

53. Klein is a RWer who simply makes stuff up. Regnery Press is a RW publisher that

will publish anything as long as it attacks liberals and/or Democrats.

That crap doesn't belong on DU.

[WI_DEM]

54. And of course you buy it hook, line and sinker

just because you think it will help your candidate. That's what stinks around here--on both sides.

[Segami]

56. Kick.

[emulatorloo]

59. Yea Newsmax hacks and Rupert Murdoch "journalists"!!! Go team!

You really think promoting right-wing smear jobs on DU is the way to get Bernie the nomination?

[MADem]

73. They'll double down, too.

Like these same lunatics they're snuggling up to wouldn't kick the living shit out of their guy if he made it through the gauntlet.

And they're on record backing a wingnut, here.

Anything to win--even the sacrifice of integrity--is not a good look, IMO.

[NCjack]

57. Did Hillary actually disrespect all of the Secret Service agents,

or just the ones that that stank of booze and cheap perfume and were wobbly?

[kath]

60. Kick!

[kenfrequed]

62. I don't care

Stick to the issues.

Income inequality
Social justice
Ending constant militarism
Increasing the minimum wage
Regulating wallstreet
breaking the big banks
Fighting global warming

[Autumn]

66. I hated to do it but I kicked and recommenced your OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251657853#post115

[randys1]

78. Nah, never happened.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

80. I don't believe that

Hillary would not say that

[Beaverhausen]

82. Hey Bernie supporters. YOU ARE ALIENATING EVERYONE

I've not chosen a candidate yet but this fucking bullshit has got to stop.

No one who supports any dem candidate should stand for this crap being posted here.

this place is a cesspool now. Jesus christ.

[HooptieWagon]

83. Does that go for this too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251657853

Or are you selectively outraged?

[Live and Learn]

89. Hmmm, I don't see her reply to that OP. Interesting. nt

[Puglover]

100. I know right.

Not sure about the poster you are addressing but a few that recced that thread that are huffing and puffing about integrity up thread.

The cognitive dissonance is just amazing.

[L0oniX]

103. LMAO [phone] "selectively outraged"

[demwing]

99. Dont blame "Bernie supporters" -some of us have voiced our disagreement

focus on the OP

[Romulox]

101. LOL. Another "centrist" who won't support Bernie! nt

[L0oniX]

102. You think this is bad ...try discussionist.com.

[treestar]

86. He just doesn't like her for some reason

His description is inconsistent with the fact that the people surrounding her support her.

[olddots]

91. everybody wants a book deal

I would be grumpy if I knew my mate was messing with a young intern and the S.S. suits were maybe running defence for him .
Hillary has enough political baggage to deal with so I wish we would leave this alone.

[Sliceo]

92. Your source is a right winger who lies and loves torture

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251663212

[kath]

93. Kick

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. There are two other articles about Bernie and Joe being mean to subordinates.

I am about to switch my support to Lawrence Lessig.

[Vattel]

96. I think this sort of hearsay stuff about rudeness, etc. is slimy.

Same with Cali Democrats article about Sanders being grumpy.

[demwing]

98. Thie piece reeks

Please consider a self delete.

[LiberalArkie]

104. It is kind of the same thing "the help" in Arkansas said when Bill was governor.

She never wanted to see "the help" around. No cleaning or repairs when they were at home. Note that they said the same about Janet Huckabee. Neither wanted to see anyone not in a suit or dress clothes unless they "were someone". Strange people politicians.

People have to be psychotic to want to be a politician. I can't say that I would want to be friends with anyone in politics and IU am sure they fill the same about common people like me.

I have done work for some of them and I guess they are a lot like most of the wealthy, they have no use for the working people who job means they have to get dirty. I knew a plumber who lost his job after crawling out from under a house after fixing a pipe. The home owners wife came home and saw him crawling out dirty and called his company and had him fired for tracking dirt onto the grass. I had to go and fix a telephone set at a house, but I could not be there while the owner or his wife was there. I had to have the maid call the company and they would radio me when I go to the house.

Strange people.

So do I believe that the story is true, probably stretched, but not outlandish for the "real people" of the world.