Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:07 AM Oct 2015

Tuesday was a good night for both Hillary and Bernie

Last edited Fri Oct 16, 2015, 11:12 AM - Edit history (3)

Both of them accomplished what they needed to last night, each in their own ways. And each of them needed very different things last night, aside from the obvious of course, which was to build and solidify support for their campaigns. They both did that. If this were the final Democratic debate I would say that Hilary "won" on the strength of her skill as a debater coupled with a performance that showed some spark along with substance. It wasn't the last debate though, we are still at the front end of this process, and for that reason I think Bernie gained as much, if not more so, as Hillary did.

There is no one who is currently still an active player on the purely political stage who is as experienced and accomplished at that art than Hillary Clinton is. Whether or not she measures up to the previous bench marks set by her own husband or Barack Obama is moot. They no longer are running for any offices. It's like comparing those great Yankee baseball teams of yesterday to whoever wins this years World Series. Those Yankee teams no longer take the field. Hillary is still on it. The last time Hillary ran for president she was caught flat footed at the beginning by an exceptionally talented insurgent adversary in Barack Obama After a rocky start though she regrouped and came back strong fighting tooth and nail to the very end of an extremely competitive race. Some people had forgotten how tough she became in the second half of that campaign.

Increasingly the media and "political observers" had become critical of Hillary's current chops. Last night they were on full display. She needed that moment, she got it, and she used it well. In areas where she is intrinsically strong among Democratic base voters, such as women's reproductive rights and gun safety, she showcased those strengths powerfully. In areas where her positions have more been called into question, like her willingness to stand up to Wall Street and her judgment regarding war and peace, she generally put her best foot forward given the record she has to defend. Hillary has been on stages like the one she stood on last night many times before, and the poise that comes with practice augmented her formidable strengths. She answered those who murmur that her skills are slipping, and tacked to the left as skillfully as reality would allow to soften distinctions drawn between her and her main opponent, Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders came into last night's debate with a different set of challenges. Until quite recently dismissed as a mere gadfly on the left, his frame of reference has radically shifted. Bernie had to stand virtually shoulder to shoulder with a long time heir apparent to the American Presidency and show why he belonged in that picture. Hillary Clinton has stood there for a very long time, Bernie not only is new to most of the American people, it is new to Bernie also to occupy that position. By all accounts, that takes some getting used to. Whereas Hillary found herself needing to reassure people that she could still play at the top of her game, Bernie had to assure people that he belonged in this game at that level. He needed to project a strong presence. He needed to validate the polling that consistently has shown that it is Bernie Sanders, not Joe Biden or some mythical TBA Al Gore type White Knight waiting in the wings, who is Hillary Clinton's foremost challenger for the Democratic Party's nomination for President. Bernie did all that and more.

We all know the look of an also ran. On the Republican side we see that in a Rick Perry, in a Scott Walker, in a Rand Paul. These men all once had serious national buzz behind them, but they collectively fell on their faces. Bernie Sanders could have begun sliding into those ranks had he melted on that stage last night, had he come off more like Lincoln Chaffee, or been as ultimately forgettable as Martin O'Malley was in the afterglow of that debate. O'Mallley didn't so much have a bad night, but he had a bad outcome. He failed to steal any measurable thunder on the left from Bernie Sanders, and that was what he needed to do. With his passionate impromptu comments about Hillay's "damn emails" alone, Bernie left a more indelible mark on the American political psyche than the sum total of everything O'Malley, Chaffee, and Webb had to say during the entire debate.

Hard core Democratic base political activists have followed Bernie Sanders closely for months, if not years, now. They are used to weighing him seriously as an alternative to Hillary Clinton for the American Presidency. Most Democratic voters are not, but that process began in earnest last night in front of millions of live viewers. Bernie didn't so much need to win them over last night as he needed to win their interest in him, and that is a mission now accomplished. His blunt straight forward no hold bars focus on issues that matter to Americans, his unvarnished diagnosis of what ails America today, and his bold prescriptions for a healthier future for the vast majority of American citizens, still sounds startlingly fresh, even unsettling to most ears. But there was no denying Bernie's strong presence on that stage, his authenticity and the strength of his convictions. Internet searches about Bernie soared during and after the debate, and they weren't emanating from those already familiar with him.

There are at least 5 more debates remaining. Both teams have time to huddle now and fine tune their messages, making adjustments as needed in delivery. Last night was a restoration moment for Hillary Clinton and a break through moment for Bernie Sanders. They both have emerged well positioned to continue the fight.


17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
1. Unrec. Your analysis falls apart when you get to O'Malley.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:20 AM
Oct 2015

Did he do enough in the 1st debate to propel himself into 1st or 2nd place? No, but he definitely will get a bump. The papers in Iowa were very enthusiastic about his performance. He could surprise people there when the votes are counted.

Not memorable? He had the best answers on Latinos, immigration, guns, and the environment.

His closing state got raucous applause from the entire crowd, not just his supporters. The race is just starting, it is too soon to proclaim it finished.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
3. As an O'Mallet supporter ...
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:27 AM
Oct 2015

Despite O'Malley's strong responses ... I'm afraid no one heard them ... compared to what they heard from Bernie and HRC.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
5. Some heard. Some examples:
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:33 AM
Oct 2015
Des Moines, IA -- Tonight, following the first Democratic Primary debate, Iowa leaders joined together to praise Governor Martin O’Malley’s strong performance where he seized the national moment to win the debate.

Governor O'Malley did not just meet expectations for this first introduction, he surpassed them. The debate had several moments where Governor O'Malley boldly showcased his record of actions, and not words -- namely on the urgent need for gun safety measures and comprehensive immigration reform – and those moments resonated around Iowa.

Iowa State Representative Charlie McConkey:
“The American people want a President who will lead, not just tell them what they want to hear or take a position based on what polls best. The first Democratic debate provided a unique opportunity for Governor O’Malley to introduce himself to the American people – and he did so with great passion. O’Malley is the only candidate who can point to actions, not just words, and his performance in tonight’s debate proves he is the candidate who will be able to actually lead and get things done for our country.”

Iowa State Representative Dan Kelley:
“Tonight’s Democratic Primary debate finally kicks off election season for 2016 and the choice could not be clearer for Iowans: we need new leadership, with a record of achieving progressive results, to get wages to rise and rebuild the American Dream. We need Martin O’Malley. As someone who has worked to build our clean energy economy – it was evident that Governor O’Malley was the only candidate on the stage who will give us actions, not just words, on climate change. Tonight’s debate proved it: Martin O’Malley is the right choice for President.”

Jasper County Chair Taylor Van De Krol:
“This election provides an opportunity for our Democratic Party to unshackle itself from the past and look to new, executive leadership to address the challenges facing the country. What was evident in tonight’s debate: for new leadership, we need Governor Martin O’Malley. Martin O’Malley has led on the issues most pressing to people like me as a young Iowan, a recent college graduate, and the youngest Democratic County Chair in Iowa.”

Iowa Assistant Attorney General and former School Board Member Nathan Blake:
“Tonight, Martin O’Malley showed he is the best choice to be our Democratic nominee for President. O'Malley brings a fresh perspective based on his record of getting things done as a big-city Mayor and two-term Governor. He has demonstrated time and again that he follows his principles instead of looking to the polls – in particular, we’ve seen that when he stood up for New Americans in passing the DREAM Act and welcoming refugees from Central America and Syria. Governor Martin O’Malley is the new face of the Democratic Party and tonight he proved it. I’m proud to support Martin O’Malley for President.”

Wappello Democratic Party Chair and teacher Melinda Jones:
“As Governor, Martin O’Malley brought people together from both parties to achieve progressive results: repealing the death penalty, adopting marriage equality, raising the minimum wage, and investing in education to make Maryland public schools number one in the country for five years in a row. As a Democratic County Chair those kinds of values are exactly what I’m looking for, and as a teacher his record of achieving progressive results is exactly what I need.”

Dubuque County Recorder John Murphy:
“So much of what Martin O’Malley said in tonight’s debate resonates with me – but most importantly Martin O’Malley has an impressive record to back it all up. O’Malley has a record of executive leadership -- actions, not just words – that set him apart from the rest of the field. O’Malley has consistently put his progressive values into action: from eliminating the death penalty, to passing comprehensive gun safety legislation, to his work treating mental health issues – Governor O’Malley’s follow-through has always been really impressive, and that’s what we need in our next President.”

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
11. What is a "strong" response?
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 12:02 PM
Oct 2015

I heard O'M "strongly" suggest that all mass shootings involved people like John Holmes.

Yes, he was adamant in saying it, but it wasn't true.

So what is a strong response? If it can be disconnected from empirical reality, can it still be relied on to draw people to be a O'M voter?

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
13. Your response is to come back attacking me for asking a question
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 01:22 PM
Oct 2015

That's one weak response 1StrongBlackMan

We are all invited to observe, we are all entitled to consider what we observe, it's not required to notice or have the same reaction as everyone else.


 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
14. You have a very low "attack" threshhold ...
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 01:27 PM
Oct 2015

I merely asked whether you listened to anything O'Malley said beyond the one point you pointed out.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
15. I made nothing personal. You apparently want to deflect and minimize
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 01:34 PM
Oct 2015

away from an OMalley position on LE that's not based on facts but prevailing bigotry.

I would think most DUers woudl be sensitive to both the issue of twisting reality to shape popular bigotry and inappropriateness attempting to dilute a problem, by looking at all else

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
4. Yes, my opinion on that is subject to fair debate
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:32 AM
Oct 2015

I boiled it down to what I saw as the bottom line. Given how far behind O'Malley is, in polls, in money, in grassroots supporters, in media coverage etc. I think he needed to do much more than he did last night. IMO in the small sense he definitely helped himself, he came off as more than credible which will serve him well over the long haul, well beyond the primary season. But he failed to sufficiently shake up the fundamental dynamics of this race. Every cycle there are challengers on both sides who win respect but fall short of mobilizing a wide base of support, they are not in the same category as also ran losers - but they don't end up winning either. I just don't see an opening for O'Malley to break into the first tier now, no one stumbled badly in this debate at the top, though I suspect his numbers will rise some.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
6. When's the next debate? Whether he can gain traction or not will be evident after that.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:35 AM
Oct 2015

Biden not entering could force some shifts also.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
7. Should also point out that he is the 2nd choice of both Sanders supporters and HRC supporters.
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:38 AM
Oct 2015

That is kind of an unique position which may benefit him if one of the top two stumble.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
8. Very good analysis
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 11:47 AM
Oct 2015

I'd give the edge to Bernie because I think he articulates what real people on the ground are feeling but Hillary finally got prodded into some unscripted fire of her own and that's what people need. O'Malley left me cold and the other two were just cringeworthy. Webb complaining about his time was ironic because he didn't do much with what he had.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
9. Bernie 1) Made the cut 2) made points that matter passionately to millions of people
Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:41 PM
Oct 2015

There are still at least 5 debates to go.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Tuesday was a good night ...