A question about intellectual honesty. RE: Clinton's charge of sexism

[Armstead]

A hypothetical question regarding Clinton's claim about Saders being sexist.

Go back to 2008.

Suppose the exact same exchange on some issue had occurred in the VP debate between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden in 2008. Joe said the same thing Sanders said on an issue.

And the next day Sarah says to rallies (to spread a meme): "Yes. Joe accused me of shouting. I guess he thought I was shouting because I am a woman who is speaking her mind. Well I won't shut up, even if Joe Biden wants me to stop speaking out because I am a woman."

Would you really be defending Palin's behavior?

[72DejaVu]

1. D Hilary say that?

"Yes. Bernie accused me of shouting. I guess he thought I was shouting because I am a woman who is speaking her mind. Well I won't shut up, even if Bernie Sanders wants me to stop speaking out because I am a woman."


You got a link to any such statement?

[JaneyVee]

4. There are things Hillary says, and the things they think Hillary said.

[Armstead]

5. You're smarter than that

You know exactly what she said, and why.

[72DejaVu]

6. I know that she didn't say

what you implied she said.

[Armstead]

34. You disagree with jut about every reporter and commentator who has discussed it?

hooookay.

Your naive faith in her is touching.

[JaneyVee]

7. I don't think you even know exactly what she said.

Because if you did, you would know that wasn't even close.

[Armstead]

24. You disagree with almost every reporter and commentator who has been talking about it?

[Maedhros]

20. No, they're really not. [n/t]

[DianeK]

11. do you need a definition of the word 'hypothetical'?

you know exactly the point that is being presented

[leftofcool]

13. Do you need to be told that men shouldn't tell women to stop shouting?

[DianeK]

16. and exactly what man told what woman..

to stop shouting?

this is what Bernie said..if you need to be reminded....


"As the senator from a rural state, what I can tell Secretary Clinton is that all the shouting in the world is not gonna do what I would hope all of us want, which is to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have those guns, and end this horrible violence that we are seeing. I believe that there is a consensus in this country. A consensus that says we need to strengthen and expand instant background checks, do away with this gun show loophole, that we have to address the issue of mental health, that we have to deal with the straw-man purchasing issue, and that when we develop that consensus we can finally do something."


There is is..exact quote...please show me..within that quote where this man was telling any woman to stop shouting

[leftofcool]

29. Exactly!

He should never have prefaced that line with "all the shouting in the world" which implied that she is shouting because she is passionate about the issue. I am quite sure that was not his intention but he ruffled the feathers of a country full of women voters and instead of making a quick apology to women for something that was implied but not intended, he laughed it off. Now, you have a bunch of his supporters going all over social media making sexist comments about Hillary which just made the national news. That makes things much worse and it is too late for him to put this to rest.

[DianeK]

33. you 'might' be able to get away with that except that ...

this is a common phrase for Bernie to use and it matters not who he is talking to ..and i am pretty sure you actually know this...we could be having legitimate arguments at this stage of the process..this is most definitely not a legitimate arguement..and in then end...whoever may end up with the nomination....we will need to pull together..i have no problem discussing real issues..but to try to paint Bernie with this brush is not credible in any way...do your research...this does not fly

[leftofcool]

38. I see women being told to stop shouting as a credible issue.

But, your thinking may be different.

[DianeK]

45. what he said was...

"all the shouting in the world" and then went on to make his very good and valid point...he did not say "you women who shout"..he did not say..."hillery you shrew..you shout too much"

come on..you are way smarter than this..and so am i

[leftofcool]

46. As far as I am concerned, it has already been said and there is no walking it back

Those who think this was a good statement on Bernie's part will continue to do so. I have no problem with that. I see the statement differently.

[DianeK]

48. ok...well thank you..

that tells me alot

[Armstead]

36. What the hell word was he supposed to use to make the point?

This so-called attempt to level the playing field seems more and more like the Princess and the Pea every day.

[merrily]

19. Thank heaven no one told Hillary to stop shouting, then.

[Armstead]

27. So we're all going to spemd eight years walking on eggs?

That;s going to do a hell of a lot to create a level playing field.

[zazen]

57. & men shouldn't batter: does that make Sanders a batterer because he's a man?

This is disgusting.

I have feminist cred out the wazoo and I will not stand for this bullshit.

The misappropriation of our movement by HRC and her supporters, and the bloody, millennia-long suffering of women at the hands of male batterers, rapists, and harassers, is VILE.

I have worked with victims of male violence my whole life. To suggest that Sanders is sexist and that he was trying to "shut her up" with his comment about shouting is the most offensive thing I've ever heard Clinton or her supporters do.

She has just trivialized a great movement for her own ends by attacking a true male ally for the very real crimes of other males that she apparently doesn't take seriously enough to respect by speaking about them truthfully.

I'm reminded of the _Handmaid's Tale_--where male allies were falsely accused of crimes against women and thrown to the oppressed women to tear apart.

I will NEVER vote for Clinton. Done.

I'll vote for a write-in.

[leftofcool]

2. Except Hillary never made that claim did she?

[Armstead]

8. You're smarter than that too.

But if you honestly don't think she threw in the part about "because I'm a woman" as a dig at Sanders, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[leftofcool]

12. What part of "we don't have to stop shouting" don't you get?

Stop trying to mansplain things and look at this from a woman's POV. Many women had their feathers ruffled over this. It doesn't matter what Bernie's intentions were when he said it, he said it to a woman. It was the wrong thing to say!

[Armstead]

31. Okay let's just ever use any remotely critical terms against any women ever

And let's be consistent. Pardon my manspalining.

Sarah Palin: "Obama pals around with terrorists!"

Gee Gov Palin, don't get me wrong, I mean I really respect you as a woman and want to protect you from unfair stereotypes. I certainly don't want to stifle your right to express yourself. Forgive me for disagreeing with you.....oooo this is so painful to have to say. But I believe you're wrong Not because you're a female. But perhaps in this case you might have misinterpreted who Sen. Obama spends his time with.....Now don't get me wring, You have every right to express that opinion. And you certainly can express that opinion in forceful terms........

[leftofcool]

39. Critical terms are fine. Being to told stop shouting is not fine.

[Armstead]

53. Every damn day another word or phrase is deemed unacceptable

I'm sorry but at some point this gets ridiculous. I prefer to give women more credit and believe that they are able to handle criticism as well as men. I was watching the debate with a very PC woman, and she did not react in any way to that exchange.

Men also get criticized and "attacked" and called less then nice names all the time. It would be preferable if everyone was nicer to everyone, but unfortunately the world doesn't seem to work that way. If people think Bernie was beating up on her, the GE is going to be horrific. Perhaps we should protect her from that ordeal.

Sanders has been exceptionally polite towards her so far. The strongest criticism he has given (before she decided to nasty up the campaign) has been things like "I respect Sec, Clinton a great deal, and we are friends, but on this she and I have a disagreement." What an ogre.

[leftofcool]

63. Like I said, criticize her all you want, but don't ever say, stop shouting.

And please don't compare how you poor men are always being attacked or called less than nice names to the things women have had to endure. It doesn't fly.

[Armstead]

64. He didn't say "Stop Shouting"

My response

1)His words were totally twisted and distorted and taken out of context .I'm not saying "poor men" are being attacked. But I am saying that if women want a level playing field, then they ought to accept all that comes with that.

2)Is Hillary a tough fighter who can stand up to any opponent make or female? Or can no one say anything to, around or about her because that might say something that has been deemed gender inappropriate?

4)I think Hillary is tough as hell and doesn't care one whit that Sanders used the word "shout." She just wants to nasty up the campaign with personal bullshit issues and distractions, because that's how she prefers to campaign.

5)I am totally supportive of having a woman president., Just not her.

[Kalidurga]

51. Mansplaining that term

I will mansplain sumthin to you. Bernie said the same thing to Martin O'Malley.

[JaneyVee]

3. I think you need to re-read this entire news story.

[Armstead]

9. I did and I saw the debate and I saw her say that line on two seoerate occasions

And I heard all of the pundits on the TV and seen articles abut it, who said the same thing.




You know what she was doing. Try to defend it if you must, but don't deny it.

[JaneyVee]

10. Please post her comment.

[Armstead]

17. Nope. You know exacty what she said, and why. I know it. All of the pundits know it.

If you don't.....well I'm not going to explain it yet again.

[Agnosticsherbet]

14. If Joe resorted to unconscioius sexism, I would call him on it, but he didn't.

Joe Biden treated Sarah Palin fairly.

[Armstead]

21. I wasn't talking about how Joe Biden behaved. THis is a hypothetical question.

If the same exchange occurred and Palin turned an unrelated subject into an accusation of sexism, would you have supported her?

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. What you appeared to be doing with you hypotheitcal question, at least by my reading,

is suggest that if people did not call out Biden for such behavior, and take Palin's side, we would either be partisan hacks or hypocrites.

I and my wife watched the debate together. She actually caught Sanders Comment about Clinton raising her voice and was insulted by it.

I didn't catch it until she brought it to my attention, but I have an anatomical difference that I have been convinced for years affects my thinking. (That was self deprecation.)

I am an acculturated white male and there are some things I don't notice, even after spending decades trying to know my weaknesses and blind spots.

Also, I have come to the point where I do not accept bad behavior just because someone is on my side. If there is an issue I hold so dear that it is s mark against a Republican in a primary, I will apply that judgment to a Democrat.

To the best of my ability I hold all those seeking to be my Representative in any branch of the government to the same standard.

My wife considered it unconsciously sexist at the time. I trust her judgment.

[leftofcool]

42. Thank you. I felt the same way.

My husband is also anatomically different but yet he caught that right away.

[Armstead]

47. I'm sorry but your wife is being overly sensitive

Look, I'm a fairly enlightened guy abut such things. I have many female friends and they tell me that they really appreciate that about me. (Not trying to be Alan Alda here, but trying to make a point.)

My female friends and I have had very, er, lively discussions at times. They don't get offended at every little statement I might make like "I don't think people should shout about..."

If we reach the point where almost every phrase and every word cannot be uttered because it might imply that some group is a fragile flower that needs protection (even if a fragile flowers is beating us up) in the interest of "equality" then we are not lowering the ceiling, but lowering the floor of public discourse for everyone.

It especially makes me angry when such restrictions are used for political opportunism and use to restrict political dialogue.

[Agnosticsherbet]

50. My wife is not overly sensitive. She knows a sexist remark when she hears one.

She has taught me to recognize them, also. Talk to your female friends about that.

We should educate ourselves with our language to understand what we are saying.

[Armstead]

54. I watched the debate with a very PC female (But not committed to any candidate).

She did not react at all to that exchange. Later she said the whole flap is ridiculous.

[Agnosticsherbet]

56. So women who recognize it as sexist are either over senisitive or ridiculous.

You are not making a good argument for your side.

I am happy to accept a woman's opinion, no matter which way they would go with the argument. I would enjoy learning from their differing experiences and reactions.

[Armstead]

60. The recognition of "sexism" can be mistaken

I am not referring to obviously sexist statements or terms that we all know. Those should not be used, just as men deserve some common courtesy and respect too.

If Sanders has enough respect for Clinton as an opponent to speak freely, that IMO is a sign of respect. And he did not say anything that would have even gotten a second thought if he had been addressing a male .

But if common everyday English like "We can shout about this issue...." becomes a loaded phrase, what's next?...... "I'm sorry but you're wrong about that." Are there hidden gender stereotypes in that? ....How about "As a nation we have become too emotional about this issue".....Well gee, maybe that ls not acceptable because of the stereotype that women are emotional....."Please. Be logical." Nope. Women are assumed to be not as logical as men, so we can't imply that someone is not being logical.

And on and on it goes until there's.....Total Silence.

[portlander23]

15. It's a campaign Armstead

What are you gonna do. People are gonna be for their candidate and they're going to feel compelled to defend this nonsense. The upside, for everyone, is this sort of nonsense backfired. Just like it backfired when Mrs. Clinton's super PAC (with whom her campaign coordinates) called Bernie a communist.

This is how she's going to campaign and it seems that her supporters will tolerate it.

[Armstead]

22. You're right. And it is why so many people are turned off to politics.

[portlander23]

28. This is why people like Bernie

People talk about authenticity, but I think a better way to put it is people have finely tuned bullshit detectors.

[JoePhilly]

18. More war on Christmas.

[Armstead]

23. Yes and Clinton declared it

[JoePhilly]

25. By not calling Sanders a sexist?

Is that how it works now?

[portlander23]

30. Sure

[JoePhilly]

41. Do you think a Hallmark card makes these lies more real?

[portlander23]

43. Just more funny ;)

[Armstead]

32. I'm sorry. You are correct, Her choice of language and timing was an incredible coincidence.

[JoePhilly]

40. Your charge is Bull Shit.

She did not call Sanders a sexist.

You can complain all you want ... but it did not happen.

[NanceGreggs]

37. Apparently ...

... that IS how it works now.

[JoePhilly]

44. "Hillary looked at Bernie funny!!!!!"

That's about where they are right now.

[Armstead]

49. Yes it is.

You don' t understand that Clinton was being opportunistic by linking an unrelated issue to "sexism" because the opposing candidate was making a point in a debate?

Hoookay.

I can't wait until the GOP has a female presidential candidate (unlikely this time) or vice presidential candidate (more likely).

Democrats will not be allowed to say anything even remotely critical or mean, according to the standards that are being set here.

[ucrdem]

52. Joe has more class so it's kind of a moot point.

And if Bernie didn't see this one coming from a mile away he's really out of his league.

[Broward]

55. Good luck trying to reason with that crowd.

Many are living in an alternate universe.

[msongs]

58. opinion is not fact and infering is not implying. nt

[WillyT]

59. K & R !!!

[treestar]

61. If Bernie cannot stand the heat, he needs to drop out

Wait until the Republicans start on him.

[Armstead]

62. Um, who started it by whining about insenstitive sexist behavior?

Jeeze, there are so many mixed messages and contradictory messages coming out of all of this.

Bernie can certainly stand the heat. He's been polite and issue oriented. But yes, he responded when Clinton decided to revert to form and nasty-up the campaign by maing it personal.

But who's the delicate creature here? Who is everybody suddenly worried about being the "victim" of mean old Bernie's sexism, when he used a gender neutral term to describe the ongoing national argument over a controversial issue?

So is Hillary a strong woman who can stand up to any opponent, male of female? Or is she a frail creature, who we have to be very, very careful around because she is a woman, and gosh, you know....... men are just so mean.

"Oooooo Bernie was insensitive and treated poor Hillary in a mean sexist way that hurt her feelings. He has to watch what he says because oooooooooo he used the word 'shouting' when referring to a nationally controversial issue. Oooooooo he's so mean to Hillary."

Talk about not standing the heat! Is she really that fragile -- or is she just cynical and manipulative? (I apologize, I haven't checked the Appropriate Gender Terms of the Day so I'm not certain if cynical or manipulative are on the non-approved terms of criticism.)