I did not like Hillary's IWR vote. I don't like Obama's support of TPP.

[upaloopa]

I am not so naive as to think politicians are perfect human beings. Nor do I think the past performance is always a predictor of future performance. I think that people can evolve in their opinions given different circumstances or different time frames as Obama did with marriage equality.

Seeing the choices in front of me I try to pick the one that I feel will give us the best outcome given our current circumstances and place in time.

I don't make this primary decision based on a set of ideals alone though my ideals do play a roll in judging outcomes. Rather I make this decision based on who I think can best deliver as many desired outcomes given the circumstances we currently live in.

Voting for ideals is fine but I think we need to couple our idealism to a real understanding of the possibility that those ideals can be realized.

Seems to me that voting for Bernie is voting for a set of ideals in a vacuum devoid of any understanding or caring of the probability of those ideals becoming reality in a reasonable amount of time.


I pick Hillary because I understand what she means when she said "I am a progressive who likes to get things done."

[enlightenment]

1. Your perspective is reasonable -

until your get to "voting for a set of ideals in a vacuum devoid of any understanding or caring . . .", which is a politely nasty way of saying that people who don't agree with you are not just wrong, but craven and ignorant.

Vote for whom you please; that's the system. Try to refrain from attacking the intelligence and character of those who make another choice. That makes you look foolish.

[misterhighwasted]

3. I understood that statement completely opposite of you.

It was no insult to any Dem intelligence.
It was a very true statement applied to the GE.

[upaloopa]

4. I am interested in electing Hilliary for the

reason I gave.

How I am perceived by you doesn't even come into play.

[misterhighwasted]

2. That's because HRC has proven to be a fighter, not a quitter nor a panderer.

She is true to her word & will be a great common sense leader for this nation.
Her knowlege of Foreign Affairs, her fight for women's equality, LGBT, minorities, childrens education, health care, & her brilliant intellect is why HRC has earned herself the endorsements of Unions, Congressional members, State & public organizations, & businesses small & large.

She has the broad perspective & smarts, as well as a master at diplomacy that will bring America back to a functioning society & stability around the world.
Her wisdom, vision & foresight makes it all achievable.
America is most fortunate to have her at a time of such Global & National fragility.

Madam President Hillary Clinton 2016
About time!

[ibegurpard]

5. the two things you mentioned

Are not a matter of "not perfect"...they are deal-breakers to many many people.
Your short-sighted obstinacy is going to cost us all.greatly.

[upaloopa]

7. You are wrong eom

[angrychair]

6. Same answer from all of you

You stated: "Voting for ideals is fine but I think we need to couple our idealism to a real understanding of the possibility that those ideals can be realized."
Its the "we must compromise" answer. The $15 an hour is "not realistic", take $12 an hour and live with it compromise.
It's the chronic alcoholic's answer of "I just need to use SuperPACs this time but I'll stop later" answer. As is true with many chronic alcoholics, "later" never comes.
It is the "we need too do something about the cost of higher education and crushing student loan debt" but compromise and still force poor and middle class children to take on significant loan debt to attend college and do almost nothing to address existing student loan debt (cutting interest rates in half is little to nothing and will make no difference at all).
It is the "we need to reform banks and investment companies" but compromise and avoid things like reinstating Glass-Steagall.

I could go on for pages but I'm not. The point is, far to many other candidates "real world solutions" don't actually fix the problems or address the actual systemic causes for those problems. They "compromise". So tired of me, people like me, getting told that the "real world solutions" or "compromise" means I get shit on (just work a little harder) while the rich get richer. I am being "compromised" into the God damn poor house.
To be fair, I am not saying that Bernie Sanders has all the policies or systemic fixes laid out to cure all the problems in our country (he is a man, not a mythical being sent to heal the sick or make it rain money) either but his starting point, on almost every issue, is far closer to "righting what is wrong" that other candidate's positions do.
Lastly, when did "ideals" become a dirty word to Democrats? When did doing what is easy become the order of the day?
I am tired of Democrats letting teapublicans set the bar on what is possible. Teapublicans have proven they have no right too set the agenda. Real progressive ideals for real solutions.

[upaloopa]

8. That's not at all what I am saying.

If you want to put Bernie's ideals into place there is a lot events that have to happen before any of it can be realized.

I did not say to compromize I said to be realistic about the chances of success and in what time frame.

You know the thing you are fighting against isn't manifested in Hillary or her supporters.

You are not the good guys and we are the bad guys.

[ibegurpard]

9. Yeah it is manifested in Hillary and her supporters

[angrychair]

10. I Would never characterize

Your candidate or you as "the bad guys". It has never been about people, it has always been about ideals. It has to do with who we are as a Party.
We decided, a long time ago, as a Party, to take on the mantle as the people that care about the poor, the middle class, the marginalized in our society. We are the party of the "the little guy". What your candidate attempts to do is drive the rich man's camel through the eye of the needle. She wants to compromise with the rich and powerful, while placating the poor and middle class. You cannot do that.
It has been said so much it seems to have lost its meaning and impact but it is no less true, the vast majority of wealth is in fewer and fewer hands. According to a SSA report released just a couple of weeks ago, 53% of the total value of all wages in America is earned by just .08% (yes, point zero eight percent). That 51% of Americans now live on less than $30,000 a year.

I am not ignorant of the "real world" or how things work or the current configuration of Congress. It is not out of ignorance that I refuse to accept the status quo or demand more from politicians that claim to represent my interest. It is because of it. The general public think better of cockroaches than they do of Congress (actual polling, not my opinion) yet we continue to want to "compromise" with them? We give all this attention, effort and money to presidential elections and all but ignore state, county and city elections. Well Democrats have, teapublicans have all but run the table on us there.
No, Bernie Sanders does not have all the answers.
No, Bernie Sanders cannot make all his proposals reality.
What he can do is move us in the right direction.
The rest, as it has always been, is up to us.

[upaloopa]

11. Sorry I just can't put any time into that kind of

thinking.

You are all just so wrong about Hillary

I know it is a group think and you need a foil but we and Hillary are not it.

[EndElectoral]

12. So you're voting for her because "I am a progressive who likes to get things done."

Yet in the beginning of your op what she got done was the vote for the Iraq War and you say Obama's support of the TPP (and actually Hillary's support in 2012).

"This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field." - Hilary Clinton -11/15/2012, Adelaide, Australia.

Clinton tries to imply others are "naïve", and she is the "grown up" when it comes to policies. Yet, she's been quick to choose hawkish decisions in military situations (not exactly the well thought out "grown-up" image she wishes to portray). Her use of her private phone creating an unnecessary scandal. Something a grown up would have had the sense to at least question whether it was alright? Did she do anything wrong? Well, she even said she used poor judgment in this whole email scandal and phone scandal, and it's unnecessarily cost a bunch of money.

I don't hate Hilary Clinton. I just (a) don't find her progressive, and (b) she creates controversy by making a lot of pretty poor judgments.

Don't fall for platitudes like "I am a progressive who likes to get things done."

If your mind is shut to the idea, then fine, but if you'd like to read what truth-out.org said about Hilary Clinton and being a progressive, you may wish to take a read.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/29052-five-reasons-no-progressive-should-support-hillary-clinton

You may also not know that one month before the above quote at the debate Hilary Clinton said this to a women for Hilary event in Ohio.

"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."

Make your choice, but don't base it on her latest quote.

[upaloopa]

13. You know better than that

[Eric J in MN]

14. The next president won't always succeed, whoever it is.

The difference is what will they be trying to do.

Bernie Sanders would be fighting for ordinary people every time.

Hillary Clinton would to be on the side of ordinary people half-the-time, and on the side of the rich the other half.