Who won the 2004 debates???

[helpisontheway]

I know this is regarding an election that was a while back but I'm curious. I was watching tv the other day and a reporter said that Kerry won the first debate but Bush won the other debates? I don't recall Bush EVER winning a debate. I remember Kerry being great at debates. Are they saying that because Bush would throw out the simple phrases for the low information voters? I don't know if I blocked the entire thing out or not. I just don't remember Bush ever winning. Perhaps the media said he did and the reporter was going by that.

Anyway, I hope President Obama has an opportunity to really focus and prepare for the debates. I know he had difficulty making his answers short and succinct in the past. That is why Hillary was usually deemed the winner during the primary. The president is not a bad debator but he is better when he does town hall style or has to think on his feet while reporters grill him. I think it is because many times his answers during a debate are too long and do not contain memorable phrases. You better believe Romney campaign has already stored some one liners in Romneybot's microchip. I just hope the one-liners are not enough to make it seem like he won. We need to pump Romney up and make it seem like he is a great debator. We need to keep expectations HIGH for him and low for the President.

At any rate, I'm very nervous about the debate season because of the media! They tried to make it seem like McCain won debates a few times but the polls immediately afterwards would always say the President won. Then they sat there with egg on their face. I hope they decide not to lie afterwards. If they do then I hope they end up with egg on their face again. At least we have Chris Matthews on our side this time around. I know in the past he was wishy washy but this time he seems firmly on the President's side. He does not like Romney at all.

Okay I think I'm rambling now. Just excited for the fall campaign.

[Scuba]

1. I don't remember Bush winning, but I remember Kerry being underwhelming.

A good man, perhaps, but a lousy candidate.


That said, he probably did win if not for the cheating in Ohio and elsewhere.

[davidpdx]

2. I don't remember the debates in 2004 and whether I watched them

I was here in Korea but in a different part of the country so I probably didn't have CNN where I was then. It's not like it made any difference to me I knew who I was voting for (and my state went for Kerry).

[graham4anything]

3. the spin changed 2000

Gore won all 3, but the spin said Gore lost at least 2 if not all 3

sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Bush went in as such an underdog, that it made his expectations none, therefore he won just by finishing

Cheney whomped Edwards who looked like a stupid fool (which he was)

Biden defeated Palin easily


I for one wish they would do away with the debates. All they are now is 2 sides looking to gotcha the other, and time better spent on the campaign trail than in spinning debates.

As for Hillary, her key was that she used her being a woman very well in the debates, because it looked like a bunch of men ganging up on her.
and Edwards played all sides against each other, stabbing everyone in the back with his utter egotism, however the public was smarter than him and saw right through his trash talk.

[Sedona]

4. there was this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3730364.stm

A bulge in the back of President George W Bush's suit jacket during the first TV debate with John Kerry has triggered rumours that he was wired to get help.
Internet websites alleged the apparent bulge, during last week's debate in Miami, was a radio receiver feeding him answers from an offstage aide.

The Bush campaign dismissed the claims, saying it was just a wrinkle in the presidential jacket.

It also denied some web reports that Mr Bush was wearing a bullet-proof vest.

"People have been spending too much time dealing with Internet conspiracies. It's ridiculous," Bush campaign manager Scott Stanzel was quoted as saying by the AFP news agency.

[zbdent]

5. Remember, after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the "liberally-biased media" either jumped on the

cheerleading bandwagon, or was cowled into acquiescence by fear of losing the ability to cover "the biggest news story in our history" (the war on terra).

So, the "liberally-biased media" was either incapable or not allowed to actually score the debates with any shred of reality.

Notably, Kerry correctly pointed out that Bush43 was "not that worried" about Osama bin Laden. Bush said, quote: "I don't believe I ever said that."

Easily fact-checked, and if a "liberally-biased media" existed at that time, it would have dug up the video from one of the few press conferences WHERE BUSH ACTUALLY ANSWERED QUESTIONS FROM THE PRESS ... and he actually said "I am not that concerned about him." But suddenly, the "news" from the White House official web site could not produce that month in 2003 (every other month was available), and the the "liberally-biased media" went into collective amnesia about the incident.

So, Kerry probably WON all three debates, the first handily, the other two less so ... but don't look for any real analysis by the "media" itself ...

[brush]

6. Bush cheated

I remember a photo taken from behind the stage at one of the 2004 debates and it clearly showed the rectangular outline of some type of device hidden under the back of Bush's suit. Apparently he was being fed answers from offstage. The coverage of the incident was not followed up and the photo quickly disappeared from the airwaves. Ahhhh, the power of the presidency.

[HopeHoops]

7. The shrub didn't participate - the box on his back did.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. This is my POV, but as always, maybe I saw it differently...

Kerry entered the '04 debates down significantly in the polls against Bush. Most agreed that he needed a hard blow to get back into the race because, at the time, it appeared Bush was running away with the election. I think, on average, Bush's lead was 6 or 7 points and the election just didn't seem all that competitive.

During the first debate, Kerry kicked Bush's ass. It was brutal. Well ... I don't know if Kerry kicked Bush's ass more than Bush kicked Bush's ass. He was bumbling, stumbling and uh-ing all over the place. I remember watching that debate and even cringing at how badly he was doing. It was by far one of the worst debate performances from a presidential candidate I've ever seen (of course, I've only seen three debates - Gore/Bush, Bush/Kerry and Obama/McCain). It was awkward, very underwhelming and you got the sense Bush really hurt his chances.

Sure enough, the polls showed Kerry won the debate. Not only did he win the debate ... but the polls closed significantly. Bush's 7 point lead was quickly erased and days later, he was only up by a very narrow 1.6 points - after leading by 7 days before! It was an abrupt shift that got Kerry back into the race. Had Bush not failed as badly as he did, that gap probably never closes and it doesn't come down to Ohio ... since Bush probably takes Wisconsin and a couple other Democratic-leaning states (and Ohio by a larger margin). Of course, had Kerry not been trailing by 7 points prior to the debate, that first debate could have pushed him ahead in the race for good.

Either way, Kerry got back into the race and the next two debates weren't really nearly as devastating for Bush as the first. I don't think he did great, but he did just enough to keep from looking like an absolute moron.

But the elections were different. You can't compare this one to that one. Kerry was behind, and had to get a game-changer just to get back into the race. Obama probably won't be behind and unless he comes out and falls all over himself like Bush did in the first debate that year, I don't see how Romney 'scores' a victory. It takes a true fuck up in a debate to move the needle and I just don't see Obama doing that.

[Ebadlun]

9. That's how I remember it

In the first debate Bush looked like an idiot with no grasp of policy whatsoever. Mainly, of course, because he is.

The next showed a surprising improvement. It was only relative of course - it should have been obvious that Kerry was still the vastly more intelligent candidate. But I believe that was the foreign policy debate (if my memory isn't playing tricks), and in 2004 Kerry couldn't say "You let 9/11 happen, hid in a bunker and then invaded the wrong country, you moron!". It would have been cool, but realistically he had to come up with a position so nuanced it was meaningless, so it was always going to be tough to nail Bush in that debate.

[Drunken Irishman]

12. Kerry was always dogged by that 'I was for it ... before I was against it" line...

Bush used that in the foreign policy debate and Kerry's answer was never concrete and persuasive. Even today, Kerry admits it was a mistake to say it like he did.

Bottom line, Kerry's biggest problem was getting absolutely destroyed in the month of August. He didn't have the money to keep up with Bush and had to wait for matching funds. By the time August ended, and the Republicans entered their convention, Bush started pulling away (oh yeah, and you also had those pesky Swift Boat ads that crippled the campaign).

Had the race remained as tight as it was throughout most of spring & summer, Bush probably loses the election in that debate.

I don't worry at all about Obama losing in the debates.

[Ebadlun]

14. I also remember some 'controversy' over mentioning Cheney's lesbian daughter

It was only a gaffe if your seriously going out of your way to be offended, but it seemed to get a lot of coverage.

At the time I remember thinking that being a bumbling, clueless patent idiot throughout the whole thing was a lot more of a gaffe.

[Ebadlun]

10. Charlie Brooker wasn't in much doubt:

http://www.thepiratescove.us/2004/10/24/the-guardian/

[fugop]

11. Really looking forward to Biden and Ryan

Mainly I look forward to that because I felt that although Joe won against Palin, he had to pull his punches in order to not get jumped on for beating up on her. She was so damn good at playing that victim card. Anyway, because he pulled some punches, I think the media was able to label that one a draw (although as I recall the instapolls gave it rightfully to Joe).

Anyway, I'm hoping he shows up guns blazing. If we can get a few "A noun, a verb and 9/11" stabs in there, I'd be a happy camper!

[Drunken Irishman]

13. Agreed! Biden was much more subdued in that debate with Palin...

He couldn't go after her. It would not have looked right. H.W. Bush went after Ferraro in a very condescending way and got smacked down for it in '88. I don't expect him to hit Ryan with kid gloves.

People underestimate Joe Biden. He can goofy and misspeak, but he's great in debates. Throughout the Democratic primaries in '08, Biden almost always performed well in the debates. Of course, it didn't help his campaign much...

[Ebadlun]

15. It does seem a shame

that it's not considered acceptable to just say to your opponent "You are an idiot and you shouldn't be running for office". When it's patently the case.