I seriously am troubled that Bernie's avoidance of Vietnam is being made an issue here

[karynnj]

This is not the first time that a candidate's patriotism was questioned -- in 1992, it was Bill Clinton's.

At that time, John Kerry, a highly decorated Vietnam Veteran took to the floor of the Senate to speak against that issue being raised by Bob Kerrey in the primary. In 2008, I posted that speech when Obama's patriotism was questioned.

Hillary Clinton's supporters should show the grace that Kerry did in 1992 when he defended her husband's Vietnam avoidance. If it becomes an issue, HRC personally should say that Bernie avoiding the draft - just as Bill did -- because they were against the Vietnam war is NOT a disqualifier. Kerry's words from 1992 resonate even more when they are spoken of someone like Bernie Sanders, whose entire career is consistent with his stands from the 1960s.

Back in 2008, I put John Kerry's 1992 Senate speech in a DU post when Obama's patriotism was questioned. Here from the DU2 journal:

There was a time when Bill Clinton's patriotism was challenged
Posted by karynnj in General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)
Fri Mar 21st 2008, 04:14 PM
It was February, 1992. His challenger, a highly decorated Vietnam veteran was calling him out as a draft dodger. This had the potential of again ripping the country apart over Vietnam. Another Senator,also a highly decorated veteran, who was friend of Clinton's challenger took to the floor of the Senate to make a plea against inserting the rifts from the Vietnam War into the primary.

Here are the words said on the Senate floor in 1992:


Mr. KERRY. Mr. President, I also rise today--and I want to say that I rise reluctantly, but I rise feeling driven by personal reasons of necessity--to express my very deep disappointment over yesterday's turn of events in the Democratic primary in Georgia.

I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning.

What is ignored is the way in which our experience during that period reflected in part a positive affirmation of American values and history, not simply the more obvious negatives of loss and confusion.

What is missing is a recognition that there exists today a generation that has come into its own with powerful lessons learned, with a voice that has been grounded in experiences both of those who went to Vietnam and those who did not.

What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country.

What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a Presidential primary.

The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam , not reopen them; that one help identify the positive things that we learned about ourselves and about our Nation, not play to the divisions and differences of that crucible of our generation.

We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting in it. Are we

now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn against the will of their own aspirations?

Are we now to descend, like latter-day Spiro Agnews, and play, as he did, to the worst instincts of divisiveness and reaction that still haunt America? Are we now going to create a new scarlet letter in the context of Vietnam ?

Certainly, those who went to Vietnam suffered greatly. I have argued for years, since I returned myself in 1969, that they do deserve special affection and gratitude for service. And, indeed, I think everything I have tried to do since then has been to fight for their rights and recognition.

But while those who served are owed special recognition, that recognition should not come at the expense of others; nor does it require that others be victimized or criticized or said to have settled for a lesser standard. To divide our party or our country over this issue today, in 1992, simply does not do justice to what all of us went through during that tragic and turbulent time.

I would like to make a simple and straightforward appeal, an appeal from my heart, as well as from my head. To all those currently pursuing the Presidency in both parties, I would plead that they simply look at America. We are a nation crying out for leadership, for someone who will bring us together and raise our sights. We are a nation looking for someone who will lift our spirits and give us confidence that together we can grow out of this recession and conquer the myriad of social ills we have at home.

We do not need more division. We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric. What has been said has been said, Mr. President, but I hope and pray we will put it behind us and go forward in a constructive spirit for the good of our party and the good of our country. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are somethings that should never be injected into an election - race, faith, patriotism ...
I wish that Bill Clinton, having been given the honor given to only 43 people in our history of being President, would have had the grace that Senator Kerry showed in 1992 when he made this obviously personal plea against an earlier version of politics of destruction.

[fredamae]

1. When all ya got is a "Water Ballon"

to bring to the race..whaddya gonna do? Can't just let a candidate go on without a Scandal.....even If one reaches back One Half of a Century!
However all/many of the Dem Politicians that only a few years ago who Sent Our kids to Iraq etc-who Never served a Day....................are still in office.

[HereSince1628]

4. Why does that feel so much like Tony Beets saying "Hey, make dis happening" ?

[ybbor]

37. Gold Rush reference

Nice!

I am addicted to that very anti-environmental show myself and I can't figure out why. But I can't wait until Friday for the next one.

[HereSince1628]

70. Personally, I think it's appeal is like Bob The Builder, but aimed at adults.

Lots of trucks and diggers in large sandboxes.

The environmental impact of large scale earth moving is the unfortunate nature of pit mining and also traditionally that of refuse dumps. I spent a lot of time while working on my masters working on coal pits and nearby streams. Pretty awesome large scale metal contamination downstream of many old southern IL coal mines.

[liberal_at_heart]

72. I too am shamefully addicted to this anti-environmental show. I love Parker. He started out

as this cute kid who adored his grandpa so much he started mining because of him. Now he is all grown up and running his own mine. I can't help but root for Parker.

[ybbor]

91. Me, too

Regarding Parker, and for all the same reasons.

Todd and his crew seem to be bumbling idiots, but in reality are all pretty wealthy folks. Kind of duck dynasty kind of guys.

I do miss Dakota Fred and his story, though.

It is my escape and I shamefully love it. DVR every episode even though I make sure to watch most when they air.

Tony Beets is a punk, but I do respect his work ethic and knowledge of the trade.

Glad I'm not the only one who is all in for these folks. My wife thinks I'm crazy, but she is equally addicted to her Hulu series.

[shanti]

55. hee

gotta love tony beets!

[ybbor]

92. The dredge pirate

My wife hates all the beeping of his cursing. I watch while she is in bed already, and she can only hear the beeps. Guess it's better than the alternative.

[shanti]

114. for some reason

i seem to like these alaska shows, no matter the type. never been there, don't care for snow, but i'm kind of a hermit, so i can see the appeal in living that lifestyle. too old now though, lol, better to do it when one is young and strong.

deadliest catch, bering sea gold, alaska the last frontier, life below zero are a few others. most of them cuss like sailors, but i grew up with a dad who did too, so it doesn't really faze me.

[Human101948]

2. Bernie was right...and I wish I could have been a CO...

That war was a stupendous waste, a black mark on the history of this country, and those who perpetuated it were evil, cynical people who exploited everyone's love of country. We saw the same goddamn thing only a few years ago with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq--neither of which were justified. But it sure was a political and financial goldmine for the Dick Cheneys of this world.

[Thinkingabout]

3. Before jumping on the bandwagon about criticizing others about their draft status in the Vietnam

War some facts should be placed for viewing.

Sanders graduated in 1964 from University of Chicago.

Clinton graduated from Yale in 1973.

Both Sanders and Clinton received college deferments. The Vietnam War ended in 1973. As you can see Sanders college deferment ended in 1964, Clinton college time did not end until 1973. So, before jumping in to say the issue of Sanders and Clinton's military understand the time frame did not give the same conclusion.

[karynnj]

7. Clinton was eligible for the draft in 1969 when he got his BA

Apparently you missed the entire - not all that noble story - in 1992. Clinton, who had interned for Fullbright while he was at Georgetown was connected to a Col in the Arkansas National Guard so he could avoid being drafted. He signed to join the guard and the point he was to enter was delayed to allow him to go to England as a Rhodes Scholar. All well and good -- but while in England, the draft changed to the lottery and he got a high number. At this point he wrote a pretty obnoxious letter and reneged on joining the guard. (The latter understandable, the former unseemly)

Don't lecture people on their understanding -- when you failed to look anything up concerning Bill Clinton.

[Thinkingabout]

65. Did he stop his education, no he continued to get his law degree. What he did not do is

get married to get deferred and then when this went away have a child to get a deferment. It is not smart for this to come to the front since it is Bernie Sanders running for president and Bill Clinton is not running. I did look up the information, and yes I know the information you deliver, I also know he completed Yale with a JD in 1973 the year the war ended in Vietnam. Telling me not to lecture when the correct information is not delivered, why, I can just tell the truth.

[karynnj]

67. You know nothing about the time

In 1969, you could NOT get a deferment for graduate school. There are many sources you could find and I gave you the short outline of what he did. Obviously you were too young to have followed this in 1992, but it was a pretty big issue.

Your information is NOT correct.

[Thinkingabout]

68. Obliviously you are not on game know what I know and what I knew was occurring

in the Vietnam years, Clinton was in the draft lottery, he drew 311. Trust me, I know lots of guys which got married to avoid the draft, had a kid to avoid the draft. Sanders also left the country after his graduation.

[catnhatnh]

74. Sanders visited Israel

after he was to old to be drafted. So I don't see how that is pertinent...

[Thinkingabout]

77. What year did he he live in the kibbutz?

[catnhatnh]

83. It is in his wiki bio

That he timed out of the draft when he turned 26 and the subsequently visited Israel...

[karynnj]

76. Doesn't change that there was a lot of fancy footwork in 1969 to avoid being drafted

I don't think there was anything wrong with that. I was a freshman in college then and knew many who took jobs that provided deferments or spoke of going to Canada.

My point is that specifically the Clinton supporter who started the first thread and many of you that joined, were trashing Sanders as unacceptable for doing what he could to avoid the war -- ignoring that Clinton did too. I am astonished you have forgotten this from 1992.

Clinton used the strings he had - from his time at Georgetown where he interned for Arkansas Senator Fullbright. This allowed him to get a deferred slot in the national guard. The only thing I fault him for is the nasty letter he wrote to the guy who had helped him out when he no linger needed that help. The only excuse -- he was young.

[Thinkingabout]

78. When Bill Clinton is brought in as a draft dodger and I know Sanders also avoided the draft

yes I m going to say something. Currently Sanders is running for president, bringing up Bill Clinton journey through the Vietnam years is not going to help Sanders. The same goes to many other RW taking points which have debunked over and over about Hillary.

[beam me up scottie]

97. Now you're claiming he went to Israel to avoid the draft?

[CorporatistNation]

71. Nothing Like A Touch of Hypocrisy...

Somehow Bill Clinton is allowed due deference in your mind and Bernie Sanders is not... Bernie Sanders has done quite a bit more to halp improve the lives of Veterans than Bill C ever did... Much less Hillary.

[Thinkingabout]

88. This works both ways, Bernie Sanders is allowed due deference in your mind and Bill Clinton is not.

[catnhatnh]

73. The war in Vietnam did not end in '73

The last two American casualties were on 29 April 1975-the day before Saigon fell to the communists.

[Thinkingabout]

89. By 1975 Bill Clinton was 29 and already past the draft age.

[sabrina 1]

112. This is so strange to read here. I spent years, long after Clinton left office, defending him for

NOT going to Vietnam. He opposed the war, he was right not to go. Anyone who knows what crimes these wars are is absolutely right to do all they can not to go fight for Corporations, killing people in other countries, for profit or power or both.

Now I see YOU here trying to distinguish between two people both of whom opposed that war and both of whom managed, to their credit, to stay out of it.

What point are you trying to make here? I'm confused, I see no difference in their motives for not going to Vietnam. Different ways maybe, whatever was available as a way out, maybe, but NO DIFFERENCE in the motives

[99th_Monkey]

5. K&R nt

[Skidmore]

6. I have seen precisely two threads on DU making this claim--

yours and one by cali, which also does nothing but say that this has occurred. No link. Nothing.

[karynnj]

8. There was an earlier one that I was reacting to -- as I would guess Cali was

The gist of it was that Bernie, by declaring himself a conscientious objector, could not get the votes of vets. In addition, the issue has come up with some regularity.

[MohRokTah]

9. It's not so much avoiding Vietnam as it is seeking CO status.

IMO, a Conscientious Objector is forever disqualified from the presidency. A CO could never send any troops into harm's way and that must ALWAYS be an option kept open by a president of the United States.

Was he really a CO? I don't know. Most likely it was just a way to avoid the draft and wasn't sincere (which says something about his character if true), but I am not willing to risk a CO in the white house.

[karynnj]

10. So, Bill Clinton's actions were more honorable?

Not to mention, Sanders was likely 100% sincere that he thought Vietnam a bad war. That he wanted to avoid it is not surprising. Just as it was not surprising that Bush, Clinton and Dan Quayle wanted to avoid it. The difference was the other three had connections to get them into the national guard to avoid it.

[MohRokTah]

11. In a word, yes.

HE followed the system gaining student deferments whereas Sanders applied for and was denied CO status.

If Sanders was sincere in seeking CO status then that in and of itself absolutely disqualifies him as unfit for command.

[Lordquinton]

16. So, something he did 40+ years ago should be held as 100% today?

Not a good metric I'd say.

[MohRokTah]

21. When it comes to Conscientious Objector Status? ABSOLUTELY!

This is about perhaps the single most important function of the presidency, that of Commander in Chief. If he was sincere in his incapability of participating in ANY war (the very definition of Conscientious Objector), he has disqualified himself from the presidency because every president must always keep war as an option on the table. If he was lying about being a Conscientious Objector, he lacks the character to be Commander in Chief.

[Lordquinton]

25. Or maybe his views have evolved

You do think people can change their views on issues, right? esp. over 40 years.

[MohRokTah]

29. On the issue of CO status, I am unwilling to take the risk.

As far as I am concerned, the moment a person applies for CO status is the moment they become disqualified from ever being president.

[eggplant]

51. That's odd, CIC is a civilian role.

So his unwillingness to *fight* in a war he disagreed with disqualifies him from being CIC?

It's amazing the straws you grasp at.

[leveymg]

82. Voting to invade a country under false pretenses is disqualifying.

Pressing the regime change and destruction of two more as Secretary of State is doubly disqualifying. It is Hillary Clinton who has disqualified herself from the Presidency. As the leading neocon in the Democratic Party, she is utterly unfit to be put in charge of the US military.

You and I know that she will charge into another war of false pretenses.

[eridani]

93. "We came, we saw, he died" is a major disqualification for the presidency

We should only elect COs--at least if we'd to wind down imperialism and spend some money on infrastructure.

[earthside]

59. Hillary Clinton would rebuke you.

I've heard less reactionary and far-right rhetoric from die-hard Republicans. I suspect that Hillary and Bill Clinton, themselves, would rebuke you for your intolerant and illiberal attitude.

In the first place, many COs object to killing in war and there can be various status levels; COs in the past have been required to "participate" in non-combat activities. See the case of actor Lew Ayers in World War II: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Ayres#World_War_II_controversy

Then, of course, there is Hillary Clinton's past:

In her campaign for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, Clinton has said little about her experiences in the tumultuous late 1960s and early 1970s, including her involvement with student protests and her brief internship at the law firm, Treuhaft, Walker and Burnstein. She has said she worked on a child custody case, although former partners recall her likely involvement in conscientious objector cases and a legal challenge to a university loyalty oath. ...

Walker said that Clinton probably worked on cases to help young men avoid the draft. "We did a whole lot of conscientious-objector work," she said.

Clinton Quiet About Own Radical Ties
By James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 19, 2008

You're so messed-up.

[davidpdx]

94. There are only TWO qualifications to be president under the constitution

1) To be at least 35 years old
2) To be a natural born citizen

Your qualifications are simply made up crap.

[Scuba]

96. That's not the definition of a conscientious objector, but then you knew that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. That's not what you posted before.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251550540

NEWSFLASH: Bernie Sanders was NOT a Conscientious Objector during Vietnam.





He applied for CO status. It was rejected after he turned 26. At 26 during Vietnam, you were no longer eligible for conscription.

It's a moot point.

The standards for obtaining CO status are extremely high. One must object to any war under any circumstances due to deeply held beliefs. This would include any war where the nation is directly attacked. There are no exceptions, all wars are off limits and cannot be fought to obtain CO status.

You cannot call yourself a pacifist and punch out somebody who punches you first.

For the record, I am too much of a coward to be a pacifist, and by virtue of that, a conscientious objector. Most people are.

[MADem]

86. Yeah, really.....who would ever do such a thing?

Hell, a candidate who was a teen, too young to vote, will "get it" here at good old DU. Their childhood torn apart, their parental affections questioned.

Seems like "Gotcha!" is a time-honored tradition in some quarters....even "progressive" DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251861571

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025941970

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027331007

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026738353

I do think it is weird that Sanders refuses to tell people which kibbutz he stayed at. It's not like he's never been asked. His brother was in country at the time, but they weren't in the same place, and he claims amnesia as well. There has been an effort to find out where he was, but he refuses to fill in the blanks, which makes it look like he doesn't want to talk about that portion of his life.

I wouldn't be surprised if the RNC has a "Just in Case" dossier on him already. They don't have to look very hard to go back forty years and cough up these "writings," which, even when dismissed as "dumb" and "a mistake," will still resonate negatively with those heartland voters:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026744194

There is a lot more where that came from, too--a quick Google and there you are.

[Divernan]

18. Snopes: Bill resorted to deception & manipulation;failed to honor promises.

Snopes documents Bill Clinton's YEARS of deception/manipulation to dodge the draft. It is emblematic of the foolishness and cluelessness of Hillary's supporters to raise the issue of whether a candidate did or did not serve in Vietnam. Snopes documents chapter and verse of the extreme lengths Bill Clinton went to to dodge service. Here are a few concluding paragraphs from that entry:

That Bill Clinton went to great lengths to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, that he used political connections to obtain special favors, and that he made promises and commitments which he later failed to honor, are all beyond dispute.

Although what he did may not have been against the law, Clinton's broken promises and contradictory statements about his efforts to avoid the draft were prime examples of the kind of self-serving doublespeak that later earned him the sobriquet "Slick Willie." As Maraniss concluded in his Clinton biography, First in His Class:

"It was just a fluke," Clinton would say decades later, when first asked how he had made it through this period without serving in the military. But of course it was not a fluke. A fluke is a wholly accidental stroke of good luck. What happened to Clinton during that fateful year did not happen by accident. He fretted and planned every move, he got help from others when needed, he resorted to some deception or manipulation when necessary, and he was ultimately lucky.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/felon.asp

[karynnj]

22. No he didn't

He was able to avoid the draft in 1969 because he agreed to join the Arkansas National Guard after he returned fro being a Rhodes Scholar. Before that happened, the draft switched to a lottery and he wrote a fairly nasty letter saying he was no longer coming.

[Politicalboi]

43. Voting for an illegal war

Should disqualify HilLiary, and she could of asked for Bill's help in her decision. I would rather have a president who won't send men and women to die in a war. Unless we're attacked here, let others solve it with their troops.

[cascadiance]

50. And of course, unlike other areas of life, Hillary Clinton enjoyed "women's privilege"...

... in her not having to worry about the draft.

If she truly is wanting equal rights, then would she also push to have both women and men be part of the draft if it were reinstituted?

I think that this whole exercise of trying to find ways of rationalize who's more fit for presidency based on which way they avoided the draft for a terrible war is pretty stupid, when there are so many other SUBSTANTIVE issues that we can discuss where they had more control of their actions and consequences than the draft of those days.

Would you rather Sanders have suddenly had a "bone spur" in his foot which now he couldn't remember which one it was to get a medical deferment from the draft the way Trump did? Apparently the corporate media doesn't feel that being as agregious, since they love pointing to the one threat against corporate power (Sanders) and avoid talking about any of the other candidates, and conveniently don't have to worry about dealing with this issue on Hillary Clinton (a woman), or Martin O'Malley (too young then).

[Bernblu]

98. So, at the time when Sanders was getting his CO status, Hillary was supporting Barry Goldwater, one

of the warmongers in the Senate responsible for the Vietnam war. Since we are dredging up events from 50 years ago to disqualify candidates I guess Hillary's support for Goldwater and another warmonger named Rockefeller in 1968 as well as her more recent decision to support the Iraqi war, the worst foreign policy blunder since Vietnam should disqualify Hillary as unfit to command. Of course not.

Seriously now. do you Clinton people have no shame? Attacking Bernie Sanders while defending Bill Clinton over the Vietnam war. Is there no depths you will go to attack Bernie Sanders, a man who has dedicated his life to helping people less fortunate than himself? We should be grateful we have a man like Bernie running for President. Those Clinton supporters who attack him in this manner show that they are no better than Karl Rove and the Republicans. If the Clinton campaign continues down this road they can kiss away any support they hope to get from Bernie's supporters if she wins the nomination.

[ViseGrip]

81. This thread is disgusting! ln 04 Kerry was smeared for volunteering!

As a former staffer for Senator Kerry, I'm disgusted by this thread. I believe in free speech and always said I would never 'alert'. But I will say this is fucking disgusting. Instead of a rabbit hole here, this is a puke hole.

My husband is also a CO. A beautiful spirit who gives all to others, and takes only what's left. Always helping others. A well known loved man in our community, for sure. Two brothers in his family are ministers of great faith. One of them just built nine schools for the deaf in Guyana over ten years and teaches them to sign, those who have never had language. These are good people. So Sanders is no good? This is a bully thread and a disgrace.

I've asked my husband about this. He's tall, muscular, handy, build, fixes, anything. Not a wimpy guy who's had a hard life, buried his son from cancer and never ever complains about anything. Best husband in the world, and a leader here at home. He always has said in regard to seeking that status, I cannot aim and shoot another human being, and kill them. Never. He's a higher conscience human being. You see, a good person can be a CO.

Maybe someone like Bernie will stop sending people into harms way, for profit. Sick profit I tell you!

[frazzled]

26. Seeking CO status was (and is) perfectly patriotic and honorable

My brother applied for and received CO status (and he worked as a draft counselor at a large university). He was very anti-violence of any kind since he was a little boy. My husband's best friend from high school received it, and was sent to work in a hospital, where he actually learned the skills for a later career. My husband had a very high draft number, and didn't have to worry about ever being drafted, especially as it was fairly late in the war.

My only question was--why did Sanders NOT receive one? Perhaps it was merely the peculiarities of particular draft boards. Or perhaps he just wrote a crappy application. Or perhaps it was some other reason, such as insufficient proof of prior non-violence activities.

[MohRokTah]

30. And yet, seeking such status indicates the person is incapable of...

performing the duties of commander in chief.

[frazzled]

39. I'm not entirely sure of that

A conscientious objector may not necessarily be anti-war, only against a particular war. (Remember Obama's anti-Iraq War speech. He said he wasn't against all wars, just "stupid" wars.) Or they may simply be incapable themselves of performing the kinds of things (like shooting or bombing) that wars involve, because of personal or religious factors.

The definition of a CO is an "individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform military service" on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, disability, and/or religion.

I think it's possible that an individual might themselves be incapable of serving in combat, yet still be able to lead others in a so-called "just" war.

[MohRokTah]

40. You should research it then.

CO legally means the person is opposed to ANY participation in ANY war at ANY level.

That is the standard. When you seek CO status, you sign off that you are in complete opposition, not just opposition to the war at hand.

[frazzled]

45. It's a PERSONAL status, not a political status

So I was wrong about being able to use opposition to a particular war. But I was right in stating the principle that a person could be granted CO status for THEMSELVES being "opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles," in any war. Again, that might not mean they would forever be opposed to anyone else serving.

I truly believe my brother could not pick up a gun under any circumstances, but I don't believe he is unequivocally anti-war.

[catnhatnh]

79. Found on wiki

On March 8, 1971, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in the case of Gillette v. United States that "the exemption for those who oppose "participation in war in any form" applies to those who oppose participating in all war and not to those who object to participation in a particular war only."

[pangaia]

87. No it does not !

[MohRokTah]

90. You are incorrect.

A Conscientious Objector affirms the fact that they are opposed to ALL participation in ALL wars at ALL levels.

That means somebody under CO status would be incapable of commanding troops in any war at any time regardless of the circumstances of that war, thus they are incapable of performing the job of Commander in Chief.

[backscatter712]

34. So being open about opposing the war is worse...

...than getting a disqualification from service due to a "bone spur" or an "anal cyst", or getting rich daddy to have you assigned stateside to a Mickey-Mouse post instead of having to actually be shot at...

Funny, I always thought opposition to pointless, destructive wars was a feature, not a bug.

[MohRokTah]

38. That isn't what he did.

He sought CO status. That is a completely different issue from merely opposing a given war.

[paleotn]

49. So being honest and up front about his feelings on armed conflict....

...is worse than Big Dog's deception? Nice morals you've got there. Explains a lot.

[Oldenuff]

53. Into harms way?

I assume you mean in actual defense of our country,and not a conflict designed to line the pockets of myriad war profiteers? This country has not been in a defense posture for years...offense yes,defense no.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. You of course know that his application was rejected

as he specifically objected to the Vietnam War, not to all wars.

But of course in general you have staked out a Reagan Democrat position here, which explains your support for Clinton, your fawning adoration of all things military, your aversion to single payer healthcare, and the rest of the neolib neocon center right New Democrat agenda.

[catnhatnh]

75. Too bad for you that many of us

including Vets are dreaming of putting him in the White House.

[Scuba]

95. Just what I'd expect from you: Anyone with a conscience is DQ'd from being President.

Jeebus that's fucked up.

[NCTraveler]

12. I think the discussion...

With respect to my generations views compared to younger generations would have been welcomed here at one point.

[JI7]

24. come on. you keep saying this but neither millennials or even gen x

Are going to be concerned over a candidate not having served in what we all now know was a disaster.

[NCTraveler]

35. That is the question posed.

I think it is a positive that we now have multiple generations who weren't around for the last draft.

[treestar]

62. I wonder if younger generations

would be completely unfazed by any of the draft allegations. They have lived their whole lives with no draft and a voluntary military, so they might well think it should be a choice, the draft is antiquated and not to be interested in the least in these attacks on people of that era regarding their draft related action.

[NCTraveler]

63. Those are my thoughts.

On top of that, while being a small percentage overall, some even have parents who were born just after the war. I believe that is a first in a long time.

[stupidicus]

13. it's total BS/nonsense

given that he voted for the Afghan War

ANybody unaware of or incaqpable of understanding that that alone buries their BS, really should quit embarrassing themselves

[JackInGreen]

14. Hippy punching has become vogue here lately

As long as it's an old crunchy bernie hippy they hit,.

[R B Garr]

19. Bill Clinton is mostly the one being punched.

More opposite world, I see.

[R B Garr]

15. Link to where Bill Clinton dissed BS's Vietnam avoidance.

Your last paragraph states that you "wish that Bill Clinton.......would have had the grace..." you are saying that he didn't have the grace... Grace about what? Did he actually say something about Sanders? Or is this a huge innuendo trap that now Clinton has to coddle Sanders because they both didn't serve in Vietnam? Link.

[karynnj]

23. This was written in 2008 - and it was Obama he dissed nt

[R B Garr]

28. Where is what Clinton said about Bernie? You posted

John Kerry's speech.

[karynnj]

32. I did not say that EITHER Clinton said anything about Bernie

what I did say was that there were Clinton SUPPORTERS pushing this issue. I then said IF IT BECAME AN ISSUE, Clinton should insist this is not an issue.

[R B Garr]

48. Hmm. I didn't see Clinton supporters "pushing"

the "issue", at least not in the context you are referencing. The context I saw was a recent article from a Vietnam Vet who didn't like Bernie's draft dodging. In that context, it was brought up, but thanks for clarifying what you meant. Maybe you saw something different.

Not sure Clinton needs to coddle Bernie about it, though.

[JI7]

17. also because Kerry who DID serve was attacked for protesting the war

And some said it made him unfit for office.

A war we should all agree was wrong . It's like people are angry some were not harmed more in that war.

[George II]

20. This is the third time in the last few hours that this, or a similar issue, has been brought up as..

....being "discussed" earlier today or recently on DU. One claimed that Sanders was being "attacked as a CO", another as a "draft dodger", and now this one.

Yours is a little less accusatory, I really appreciate that, but none of the three OPs or posts about this military service/patriotism issue have included just where it is that Sanders was being attacked on those issues here in DU.

I'm obviously a Clinton supporter and I served in the US Navy 40+ years ago, yet I don't see it as an issue at all, especially since what is purportedly being claimed occurred decades ago.

I wish any of the three who have said that this has been raised as an issue today or recently could direct us to where those accusations appeared here on DU. I've been told more than once, essentially, "it's there, go look for it".

[PaulaFarrell]

31. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465#post21

[George II]

44. Thank you, I hadn't seen that. Personally, I don't see this as an issue today....

....there are a lot more important issues to discuss about the candidates than what they may or may not have done 40+ years ago. That was an entirely different era, and I suspect many here have no concept of what it was like in the US back then.

I also don't think Bill Clinton's attitude about serving in the military in the 1960s is an issue in HILLARY Clinton's campaign, either.

Let's face it, if we were to go back 40 years into any politician's background we can find stuff to criticize. So, let's talk about the candidates recent records and forget all that stuff from decades ago.

[ybbor]

41. It took me 15 seconds to find after I decided to "go look for it"

It's there, go look for it.

[treestar]

27. I don't think it's an issue here

but the Republicans would make it one. Once they had to nerve to use Kerry's actual service against him, it is clear there is no low to which they will not stoop. And we know how Republicans feels about CO status.

[Smarmie Doofus]

33. I suspect it's largely generational.

VN .... and everything associated with it.....was largely expunged from the collective memory asap.

That includes Watergate and Ellsberg.

Even relative progressives under " a certain age" are unclear as to what it was all about.

Hence the willingness of some people here to advocate for the same foreign and domestic policies that have failed REPEATEDLY.

[artislife]

36. I seriously think most of them don't know about Bill's avoiding the draft. nt

[silvershadow]

42. I haven't seen a thing about it. But the best way to not have it be an issue is

not to bring it up.

[NotHardly]

46. Infighting in DU...

is that all this site is worth? Is it all it is good for? Could some issues associated with Republicans vs Democrats be addressed? We do have a lot of real issues in the world and 90% of what I see here is just yammering and infighting.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Knowing what we know now about the lies and deception around the Vietnam War...

How anyone could raise this as anything other than a positive boggles me.

Refused to participate? Good on you. That war wasn't a patriotic activity. I wish more people had seen through the lies. (But I don't hold it against service people who did go, given the efforts undertaken TO deceive.)

[kenfrequed]

52. Don't be too upset...

For some odd reason the small but vocal contingent within the Hillary camp that is... excessively aggressive has become very, very loud this week. I honestly don't know why.

[Truprogressive85]

54. So now we have arrived at the swiftedboating part of the elections

If HRC supporters want a commander in chief that served in the military tell them

she should went to Iraq, when she voted for the war unless she is too good for the battlefield

[Squinch]

56. If this troubles you and he somehow, in spite of his followers, does manage to get the

nomination, what will be thrown at him then over this issue then will knock you out cold.

This will be an issue for some people. That's just how it is.

[DhhD]

60. The Vietnam Vets were being blamed for the War, the war being lost, and the war that LBJ ended

and Nixon, on day one, escalated for the profits of the Military Industrial Complex-MIC.

Least we forget, some vet were brutally killing innocent civilians. Many wanted no part in murder and murder for the MIC profit.

These events would be what Sanders will remind everyone about if the need arises. It would be worst for the GOP and those dodging the draft.

Bill Clinton seemed to have dodged his marital commitments too.

I do not see any of this becoming an issue.

[Squinch]

80. No recent candidate of age to have served in Vietnam, whether they were a veteran or a non-veteran,

did NOT get shit for his service or non-service in the general campaign.

For example, Clinton and Romney got shit for their non service, Kerry and McCain for their service.

[catnhatnh]

85. What do you mean LBJ ended?

Because that is completely untrue. He was trying to end it and there is evidence that the Nixon campaign committed treason to keep it going, but it was not ended by LBJ.

[onager]

105. Highly recommended reading...

"Dereliction of Duty: Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Lies That Led To Vietnam" by H.R. McMaster.

McMaster's not exactly a flaming wild-eyed liberal. He's a West Point grad, combat commander in Desert Storm and retired Major General.

From his Conclusion at the end of the book: "The war in Vietnam was not lost in the field, nor was it lost on the front pages of the New York Times or the college campuses. It was lost in Washington, D.C."

I found the book in a thrift store for fifty cents.

http://www.amazon.com/Dereliction-Duty-Johnson-McNamara-Vietnam/dp/0060929081

[Kalidurga]

57. We outspend the next top 13 countries in military expenditures

I think that it means we need an anti-war president. All these real and imaginary wars we are fighting like the cold war (yeah if you believe that is over) and having bases on 99% of other countries and enough nukes to blow up 50 earths are killing us.

[treestar]

61. something I'm not getting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_(1969)

On December 1, 1969, the Selective Service System of the United States conducted two lotteries to determine the order of call to military service in the Vietnam War for men born from 1944 to 1950. These lotteries occurred during "the draft"—a period of conscription, controlled by the President, from just before World War II to 1973.

Bernie was born in 1941, so I don't see how he was subject the draft.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. This was a shift in selection method, not the institution of the first conscription.

Prior to the lottery it was an age based selection,

[Warren Stupidity]

99. You looked up "draft lottery" implemented in 1969. Bernie was draftable from when he turned 18 until

he turned 27 - roughly 1959 to 1968 - under the "peacetime draft" system in effect from the end of WWII until 1969 when the "lottery reform" took place. Many of us were draftable under both systems.

[treestar]

100. couldn't find anything in google

"draft before 1969" didn't turn up much information.

Googling "when was the first draft for the vietnam war" still turns up 1969 lottery and how it works.

But I'll take your word for it. Still they could not have drafted anyone in 1959 and by 1964 when Bernie got out of college - they were already drafting people for Vietnam, which seems odd to me, but then maybe they were not taking many people. The Tet offensive was 1/30/68 and I had the impression that's what got us really involved.

[Warren Stupidity]

101. When you don't know what you are talking about it is best to stop talking.

The draft was in effect and actively drafting people from before WWII until the 70's. You also don't appear to know anything about the vietnam war. And finally your google foo is weak, so it seems that unlike other people who don't know what they are talking about, the googler is useless for you.

[treestar]

103. well that was really nice of you

how very superior you must feel

[Curmudgeoness]

113. To give you more information on the draft...

This should help explain some of the things that you wonder about:

http://thevietnamwar.info/vietnam-war-draft/

[treestar]

118. This book has a lot more detail

http://www.amazon.com/reader/0700611053?_encoding=UTF8&query=vietnam#reader_0700611053

Finally found some information about the pre-lottery draft.

Bernie's chances of getting inducted in 1965 were not that high anyway.

[Bluenorthwest]

64. "Are we now to descend, like latter-day Spiro Agnews,

and play, as he did, to the worst instincts of divisiveness and reaction that still haunt America? Are we now going to create a new scarlet letter in the context of Vietnam ?"

DU seems to have called forth Spiro's ghost....

[liberal_at_heart]

69. The Democratic Party sold its soul and started supporting war in order to get votes, and it

worked. They got the votes to win elections, but what is left of the party?

[Agnosticsherbet]

84. A Democrat got us into WWI and WWII. Wilson, Roosevelt, and Truman. korean War Truman

Truman is one of the father's of the post war American Imperial presence.
Eisenhower started our long heartbreak in Vietnam, but Kennedy and Johnson both escalated the hell out of it.
Carter called for a big increase in the military budget before Reagan went crazy with his 600 ship Navy. Carter also used military force in his attempt to rescue the hostages from Iran.
Bill Clinton used both covert and overt military force in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.

The Democratic Party did not sell its soul by supporting war. They have been fully involved in making war and using military force for its entire history.

[Warren Stupidity]

102. yup.

[NurseJackie]

104. Sorry to be the one to tell you, but this subject would be unavoidable in the general election ...

... if Bernie were to win the nomination (and that's a bold "if&quot . The well-funded GOP attack-machine would waste little time in exploiting this (and other topics that are forbidden to be discussed here). But, by then, there will be no way for Bernie's fans to "alert-and-hide" the GOP attacks. Fair or not, the GOP's attacks would likely be very effective and harmful to Bernie.

I'm exceedingly confident that you guys will never have to worry about that beyond the confines of this web site (with regard to the general election) however... it could still happen before Hillary has been chosen as the Democratic nominee ... you never know what those GOP rascals have up their sleeves.

[Agnosticsherbet]

106. If Sanders wins the nomination, he will be eviscerated with his "Conscientious Objector Status."

in the General.

John Kerry was among the more Decorated men to run for the office. They used his later opposition to the war to rip his campaign apart.

This election is going to be about national defense, with ISIL being center stage. Republicans and the media will not allow it to be about income inequality.

He can not win just with the youth vote, who do not have a fuck to give about what the did to evade service in Vietnam.

[Puglover]

107. So wise after a whopping

3 months on this website.

How DID we do without your incredible insight before October?



Oh and jury:Happy to take a hide for this.

[NurseJackie]

109. I don't know, but ... you're very welcome!

I'm happy to be of service.

[Puglover]

110. I'll

Just bet you are.

[NurseJackie]

111. That would be a safe bet. :-)

[Oilwellian]

108. If Hillary is chosen, then Bill will be their target for avoiding Viet Nam

Remember the letter?

It's always a good thing to get the full picture.

[John Poet]

116. Any Democrat raising this issue should be ashamed

of themselves...

And if they REALLY think it's a problem for them,
MAYBE they belong in the Republican party.