With Regard to Bill Clinton's Philandering:

[MineralMan]

Bill Clinton, like many US Presidents, engaged in some extramarital activities over time. About some Presidents we know their sexual proclivities. About others we do not. About Bill Clinton, we certainly know.

Personally, I would not have engaged in such activities, but I'm neither a President nor someone who has been presented with many opportunities to do so. However, many, many powerful people do so engage, as we all learn from time to time. Powerful men have many opportunities to do so, it seems, something that has never been part of my life.

Is such behavior to be condemned? Perhaps. It does go against the common ethics of our society, despite those ethics being breached again and again by many. Still, it is the responsibility of the man who engages in such activities alone, and we often look away from such behavior as a society, leaving powerful people in power who breach those ethics.

On the other hand, we have spouses of such people, who quite often find themselves in awkward positions when infidelities are made known. It's not at all uncommon that they stick with their partner, for reasons only they understand. I find it difficult to fault someone who stays in a relationship and finds a way to deal with a particular situation. I cannot condemn that action, because I do not know what lies behind it.

Those who would damn a spouse like Hillary Clinton because of actions taken by their husbands are engaging in a sort of blame the victim behavior. Those who attempt to discredit the spouse of someone who has had extramarital relationships is blaming the wrong person. Hillary Clinton stuck with her relationship. I do not know what the give and take was in that decision. I am not privy to whatever agreements were made between that married couple. It is none of my business.

We re-elected Bill Clinton to a second term in office. We gave him a pass on some pretty poor behavior. How can we now attack his spouse for sticking with the man? I don't get that. How can we use her husband's actions in that regard against her? I can't and won't, frankly. That would be wrong. That would be unethical of me. They have reached some sort of reconciliation, based on things I know nothing about. That settles it, as far as I am concerned.

I don't understand taking any other position about a competent candidate for President. Bill Clinton was President. He is no longer President. His wife is now running for that office. I will look at her for who she is, how well she will do the job, and whether I believe she can win.

That is all.

[cheapdate]

1. I'm with you, but I might go even farther

in stating just how little I'm concerned with Bill Clinton's -- or anyone else's -- sexual activities, within the law, of course.

[MineralMan]

11. Well, there is that, too.

It's not my business, really, what other people do with their genitals, unless I'm directly involved with it. However, our society has a set of beliefs about ethical and moral standards, whether they follow them or not.

As far as I know, Bill Clinton was never charged with nor convicted of any sexual offenses. That's good enough for me. I don't know what I would have done were I Hillary, but I'm not, so I'm OK with her decisions. She's not running as a surrogate for Bill Clinton. She's running on her own merits. I'm supporting her, for a long list of reasons. Her husband is irrelevant to me, frankly, although I voted for him twice to be President.

[cheapdate]

15. Agree. I understand societal mores and such.

But growing up as a liberal in the Deep South, I kind of developed an attitude of not being overly concerned with what my neighbors had to say about morality and ethics.

[MineralMan]

17. In my 70 years, I've known very many people.

Few of them have lived up to my own personal ethics, but that's not my business. My relationships with them were based on their dealings with me. I simply do not concern myself beyond that, as long as they don't do illegal or harmful things.

I relate to people on a personal level only where our personal lives intersect. I don't pay a lot of attention beyond that. In some cases, I have relationships with people who are in relationships. In those cases, I've sometimes had to make decisions on which to keep and which to let go. Politicians are never in that sort of relationship with me.

[aspirant]

49. "...was never charged or convicted"

Bush, Cheney and their band of criminals haven't been charged and/or convicted of war crimes, are you okay with that too?

[DesertFlower]

52. i feel the same way.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. A blow job is not a constitutional crisis.

It is between Bill and Hillary and anyone else involved, not the entire country.

[earthside]

28. It was the lies/cover-up that got him in trouble.

And the Paula Jones lawsuit where Pres. Clinton was found in contempt of court.

If Pres. Clinton hadn't lied to the American people from the get-go, the Lewinsky scandal would have been an unfortunate blip in his presidency.

Hillary was an active player in the defense of Bill in the Lewinsky scandal ... just as she was with the Gennifer Flowers scandal.

Sorry, but when the President of the United States is sued for sexual harassment (Paula Jones) and is behaving inappropriately in the Oval Office (and lies about it) -- it is the business of the American people.

I do think, however, that the Starr prosecution was awful and turned into a persecution. Clinton should not have been impeached for this infraction of common decency and for infidelity.

My view of Hillary is that she is not much of a feminist ... despite what the said during the Gennifer Flowers episode, she alway has been Tammy Wynette 'standing by her man." In other words, I think she is a fraud, has few principles, and is most interested in her own power and in big money.

Which is why I will never support her.

[okasha]

37. Hillary

is hardly the first First Lady to have to deal with a President's or candidate's infidelity. The list includes:


Eleanor Roosevelt
Mamie Eisenhower
Jackie Kennedy, later Onassis
Ethel Kennedy
Joan Kennedy
Lady Bird Johnson
and very likely Barbara and Laura Bush.

None of them sought a divorce. To the best of my knowledge, none was criticized for that "failure,"

But then, none of them ran for office. They "knew their place. "

[earthside]

39. Tell that to Eleanor Roosevelt.

What a condescending bunch of crap: They "knew their place."

What a horrible thing to write about those First Ladies.

[okasha]

41. I take it that the significance of the quote marks

went straight over your head. Perhaps this will make it clear to you:

[Thirties Child]

4. We pretty much knew what we were getting when we elected Clinton the first time

To blame his wife is the height of absurdity. Can't imagine how anyone would even try. The blamers need to take another look at that photo of Bill, Chelsea and Hillary holding hands as they walked to the helicopter, Chelsea walking in the middle. The pain on Hillary's face was palpable.

For the record, I'm voting for Bernie.

[TeddyR]

5. Very good post

I'll probably vote for Hillary in the primary, but even if I don't I don't see why her husband's sexual misdeeds (if they occurred) are relevant.

[Thinkingabout]

6. Bill Clinton was a good president and as much as the GOP tried,

He still his job. Hilary had her reasons to remain in the marriage and it was two people to make the decision of which their marriage would go, it is not anyone outside of those two to make the decision. Others can sing whatever song they want, it will not change the experience Hillary has, nor will it remove the knowledge she has. The GOP has dumped on the Clinton, made up scandals and tried to defeat Hillary before the voting begins. It rolls off of the Clintons like water on a ducks back.

[MineralMan]

12. I don't care what the Republicans do. I do care what Democrats do.

We need to hold the White House in 2016. That is my primary concern. Does Hillary have flaws? Yes. Does Bernie have flaws? Yes. I have not seen any President who did not, nor do I see anyone on the horizon.

I'll vote for either, depending on who is the nominee. They're both Democrats, with progressive goals. That's all that matters to me. I don't know either of them personally, nor am I likely to know them.

[Thinkingabout]

21. I know Bill is not running this time but life was better for me

During the Clinton years. I have followed the Clintons since he was elected governor of Arkansas. He is still very popular with Americans.

[Hekate]

7. KnR MineralMan

[Dems to Win]

8. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill to become first spouse

As a feminist, I barely agreed with Democrats that BC's offenses didn't rise to the level of impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors. But it was wrong and totally violated every principle of sexual harassment law and disparate power relationships in the workplace that feminists and Democrats said they stood for. Yes, Monica made the first pass at him, but as the boss, Bill had the responsibility to say No, knowing it would be an unfair relationship and harmful to her career.

Bill also paid Paula Jones $850,000 because he used his power as her boss's boss's boss's boss to try to get a blowjob from her. As a young professional woman, I was disgusted with Bill at the time, and resented how much political time and capital was given to saving his sorry ass.

I know I'm pretty alone in this, but I've never been comfortable with the idea of returning Bill to the White House, whether as president or first spouse. (And all the Monica revelations were in Bill's second term, we didn't re-elect him knowing about them) Bernie is running against Hillary, not Bill, so he's classy to brush it aside. But as a voter, I know that a vote for Hillary is a vote for Bill as first spouse. I say no thanks.

It will be with extreme reluctance that I will vote for Hillary if she's the nominee. Bill is a part of that reluctance, along with her $250,000 speeches to CitiBank, Iraq War vote, Saudi contributions to her foundation, and other issues.

[MineralMan]

9. So what? You aren't married to him.

Hillary is. It was her decision to stay with him. He will not be President. Hillary will. She's more than capable of handling that job all on her own.

We are not voting for Bill Clinton in 2016. He's not running.

[Dems to Win]

14. So Gennifer Flowers could have given Hillary's 1995 Bejing speech?

Who the first spouse is makes no difference to the country, since we're not married to them?

The First Spouse is a role of high honor in the US. Voters can choose to apply their own character and ethical standards to their choice of who they want in that position.

A vote for Hillary in 2016 is a vote for Bill Clinton to become First Gentleman. I prefer not.

[MineralMan]

16. Your choice. I'll be voting for a President, not a "First Spouse."

You know what I think? I think Bill Clinton will be away from the White House more than in it. I think their arrangement makes room for that, to tell you the truth. I doubt he really wants to return to that home, nor do I think that Hillary wants him hanging around there.

[MineralMan]

18. First Spouse is not an official position. Some have been more

influential than others. But it has no legal significance. I do not know Gennifer Flowers, nor do I have any interest in knowing her. I suppose that if she had been married to a President she might have made speeches. She was not.

Some people honor President's spouses. I do not give them anything but peripheral attention. I believe that Hillary Clinton is the first to have later served as a Senator and Secretary of State. She is a unique individual with her own achievements.

If she becomes President, she will also be the first to have a former President as First Spouse. That will be something nobody has ever dealt with before. It would be very interesting to see how it works out. I expect to find out.

Your vote is your vote. Consider it carefully, then vote as you choose. I will not concern myself with that.

[Thinkingabout]

23. I have also been a young woman in the workplace but I also

Had my own morals to uphold. I also worked for male supervisors and I made my choices not to engage.

[Dems to Win]

31. I've walked in Paula Jones's boots.

My boss's boss's boss's boss crudely said "Are we going to bed?" the first time he got me alone. As Paula did, I said Hell No!

Unlike Paula Jones, I didn't file suit. Too bad about the 850 grand. Woulda been a nice nest egg.

I was a woman in a male-dominated profession, so I had perfected my fierce glare and Hell No! bark by the age of 22.

Returning Bill Clinton to the White House raises my feminist hackles. I've never been able to go along with so many of my fellow feminists with the idea of Hillary as first woman president. Bill is part of Hillary's baggage, he's part of the package that we get if we elect her, and he is just not a feminist choice. Not for this feminist, anyway.

I'm also opposed to the general idea of electing a former first lady as our first female president, because I don't want to send this message to young girls: Any girl in America can grow up to be President. All you have to do is find and marry a man who will be president first!

These are just a couple of reasons I'm a proud Woman for Bernie.

[840high]

35. +1

[earthside]

29. "Two for the price of one."

The Clinton's always have been a team and are rather unique in the annals of President and spouse.

In the case of the Clintons it is just a reality: if you vote for Hillary you are voting for Bill.

[cali]

10. It speaks to a lack of self-control and a lack of regard for the office.

In the case of Lewinski, it reveals abuse of power. It also left him vulnerable to blackmail. It speaks to judgment.

But Hillary is not Bill and no one has the right to judge her for staying in the marriage.

[MineralMan]

13. Bill Clinton got elected to a second term.

The voters gave him a pass. He's no longer President. I probably wouldn't like him as a person, but I'm unlikely to ever know him personally. I probably wouldn't like anyone who would run for President personally. I probably couldn't spend more than an hour in the same room with either Hilllary or Bernie, but I will never be in that position. That's irrelevant to me. People who run for President are people who seek power. I'm not a big fan of such people, on a personal level. They annoy me. Still, nobody who doesn't seek power ever sits in that office.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. He was elected to his second term in 1996.

That was before the Lewinski matter, which came to light in 1998; whether he would have been re-elected had that occurred or been known before the 1996 election remains to be seen. It's true that some of his other sexual escapades, e.g., those involving Paula Jones (1994) and Gennifer Flowers (1992), were already known to the public, and these apparently did not cause significant political problems for him at the time. I'd say it was Bill's cumulative adulteries that were more of a problem. I, too, prefer to concentrate more on a politician's ability to function well in his position than on his personal foibles, but sometimes those behind-the-bedroom-door activities can bite said politician on the butt. Clinton's zipper problems did finally bite him on the butt even though he survived the impeachment, and to my mind also indicated a certain lack of judgment and self-control. The impeachment was ridiculous, but BC was a damn fool.

Bill isn't running for anything this time, but he is acting as a surrogate for Hillary. Because he's putting himself out there it is inevitable that l'affaire Lewinski will be mentioned (probably more than just mentioned) whether or not he or she, or you or you or I or anybody else likes it.

[okasha]

40. All three Kennedy brothers

had far more cumulative adulteries each than anything we know about Bill Clinton. What is your response to the posters on this board who consider them Democratic heroes?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. I don't really care about people's personal lives

except to the extent that their behavior interferes with their ability to do their jobs and fulfill their political obligations. The Kennedys couldn't keep their zippers up, either, and that was just as disgraceful as BC's behavior in the sense that it dishonored their wives and their marriages. Also, there is always the possibility of political blow back (if you will forgive the expression), so thinking and acting with the little head instead of the big one can cause damage to the arrant politician's campaign and/or reputation, which also disrespects the people who have been supporting them. Think about Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick, as well as Gary Hart and John Edwards. What would have happened if Edwards' affair hadn't been discovered until after he'd been nominated, if that had happened? It would have handed the election to the GOP and ruined a lot of things for a lot of people.

So, a long answer to a short question: If politicians really respect not only their spouses but the people who work for their campaigns and donate their money and trust them with their futures, they ought to damn well behave themselves.

[okasha]

46. How did the Kennedy brothers'

behavior "dishonor their wives? " In contrast to the way posters here and elsewhere have tried to attach Bill's failings to Hillary, the public showed great sympathy for Jackie, Ethel and Joan.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

47. How do you suppose Jackie, Ethel and Joan felt about their husbands' infidelities?

If your husband is cheating on you he is dishonoring you and the promise he made when you married him. I'm sure those wives were not at all happy about what their husbands had done. Is that misbehavior attributable at all to them? No, of course not; nor is Hillary Clinton responsible in any respect for Bill's shenanigans. Her decision to stay with him instead of kicking his cheating ass to the curb is entirely hers and nobody has the right to second-guess her. I'd have gelded him with a rusty pruning shears, but that's just me.

[okasha]

54. I'd say

a cheating husband dishonors himself, not his wife.

I suspect that Hillary dealt with Bill...effectively. We agree entirely on your last several sentences.

[Paulie]

43. They did not live in a hyper 24x7 news cycle with social media

Today we do. The pre-Internet days are long long past.

[okasha]

45. They were splashed all over

print media and television. Scandal flourished well before the Internet.

[cali]

20. So what? He would not have if the Lewinsky affair had happened in his 1st term

[m-lekktor]

30. Exactly, and especially when he was getting metaphorically anal probed by every investigative right

wing snoop out there looking to get him on SOMETHING because of the"bimbo eruptions" I also find it interesting that all the "you must always side with the victim" "feminists" give Bill Clinton a pass on this and automatically blame the accuser when they otherwise don't and condemn anybody who does.

[840high]

36. ....x10+

[Warren DeMontague]

22. I supported him throught the thing, I always felt that the GOP should have stayed out of his

underwear drawer, etc.

But I don't think anyone is attacking HRC for it. Bernie Sanders was asked a question, and gave a good answer, namely that he's not running against Bill Clinton. He also called the behavior "disgraceful", which is a fair adjective.

I think, since we're talking about it, at least as disgraceful as the behavior itself, was Bill Clinton getting on national television and wagging his finger at the American People about how "I did not...."

He almost lost me, there, when it turned out he did. Because I ridiculously believed him, at the time.

[Vinca]

24. I'm no fan of Hillary, but a woman shouldn't be judged by her husband's activity.

[mcar]

25. Common sense, as always

Thank you MM.

[Historic NY]

26. The guy still holds a remarkable 60% approval rating....

[MADem]

27. I say people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And I think Martin O'Malley is the only gentleman in the Democratic brigade who hasn't been called out for "sex trouble" in his life.

Some people have gotten more media coverage as to their sex lives than others; that doesn't mean that can't and won't change.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

32. I don't think anyone should condone that sort of behavior however

I don't think it interfered with Bill Clinton's ability to perform presidential duties. On the whole he was a good president but was short -sighted when he killed Glass-Steagall. I don't think his behavior has anything to do how Hillary will perform.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. K&R. nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. Agreed. But he sure caused some unneeded problems for himself and Democrats through prior actions

I am very sympathetic to Hillary regarding this but it does lessen Bill's effectiveness to Hillary as a surrogate for her now. It's a distraction neither she nor the rest of the Democratic Party needs right now. But probably the Republicans will act true to form and way overplay their hand. If they contort themselves too much blaming Hillary they will show themselves as callous assholes.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. So, your position is essentially the same as Bernie's' Don't blame

Hillary for Bill Clinton's indiscretions. That's exactly what he said too. Some Hillary supporters seemed to think he was terrible for saying that.

[Empowerer]

44. Beautifully said.

Thank you.

[reformist2]

48. We're all talking about this way more than Bernie did the other day. Just saying.

[aspirant]

50. "THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"

It's a sin I tell you.

[tularetom]

51. I don't care if he was buggering sheep in the oval office

The problem was he was careless and stupid enough to get caught.

And while the country was distracted by his dumbass antics, and we were all defending him against the overwrought attacks from the other side, he was giving the farm to the corporations.

It wasn't only Monica Lewinski he was fucking, it was basically the entire country.

[aspirant]

53. ...and both were orgasmic for him

[Major Hogwash]

55. Bubba is Hillary's Achilles's heel.

How can you comport the vastly different personalities of this one famous couple . . one half of which claims to be "the guardian" of women's issues, while the other one treats women like a piece of meat?

People who ignore the incongruity of this couple are in denial of how people really feel about them.

[gwheezie]

56. Long marriages are never perfect

There's always a point or 2 when you have to say to yourself is this thing impossible to get past. If so, you leave if not you find a way to stay together. My late husband and I got past several incidents where someone else might have said no way would I stay, but you really don't know. I know we loved each other. In the end that's what mattered.