Why I supported Hillary this time and not Sanders

[dsc]

My big problem with Sanders is that his entire career is one of favoring economic issues to the near exclusion of any other issue. If an issue isn't economic, often one can't find any public pronouncement upon that issue at all that dates from before his Presidential run. To take an issue that ranks high with me gay rights. Yes he voted the correct way on DOMA, but he was mayor of one of the most progressive cities in the US from 81 to 89. Yet in that time he passed only one actual policy that expanded gay rights (fair housing) and pointedly refused to consider employment or public accomodation rights. He opposed marriage equality for Vermont in 2006 on the grounds that the issue was too divisive (his position was the exact same as his GOP opponent that year). Finally, in 2011 when suicides of gay kids were off the chart (11 alone in October) he couldn't find the 5 minutes or so it would have taken to make an It Gets Better Video (several Senators did, all the Democrats in MA Congressional delegation did, Obama did, Hillary did, but Sanders didn't). It doesn't show that he opposes gay rights, he has mostly been good on votes but it does show a lack of concern about an issue that really matters to me.

I understand those who feel economics are the be all and end all of issues endorsing Bernie and refusing to endorse Hillary but conversely I get to have the same feelings about issues I care about. I care about guns, I care about minority rights, I care about women's rights, and I think those are at least equal to the difference between 12 an hour and 15 an hour for the minimum wage.

The simple fact is, Obama was less than a leader on this issue for much of his first term. We had to fight tooth and nail to get any accomplishments in that regard. I don't think that will be the case with Hillary, who while later to marriage equality that I would like, kept the issue of gay rights in the front of what she was doing as Secretary of State. She was the first of Obama's cabinet to offer gay couples benefits and travel on official planes. She appointed a special envoy on gay issues, she pressed Uganda and Angola on gay rights. Any further advances in gay rights at the federal level will likely be an executive thing in the forseeable future. I don't see Sanders thinking it makes his to do list.

I am not in total agreement with Hillary on every issue. But between the two of them, I simply trust her more to value the issues I care about and press on them.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

1. some people lean toward the one percent

other - not so much

we are all different - 100 million americans need a raise - fix this and lots of other problems slid away

the road we are on is a road to destruction

[dsc]

9. a raise doesn't help if you can be fired for being who you are

[SoLeftIAmRight]

18. workers rights!!!

SANDERS - only choice

[MeNMyVolt]

2. Don't worry DSC, all we need is a raise.

It's so simple that it floors me we hadn't thought of it.

Oh, K and FN R.

[cali]

3. As a constituent of his for decades, I can flat out call bullshit on that

Ever been to a town hall if his? Didn't thinks. I've been to many.

And his career shows how false your bull claim is.

[dsc]

5. if i am so wrong

then why did it take ages and ages to even find his position on marriage equality before 2009. Where is the law protecting gays from discrimination? Where is the video?

[cali]

12. Huh? His positions on protecting lgbt folks go back to his time as mayor

And have been posted here many times.

[dsc]

13. words I want to see actions

where are the laws passed for Burlington?

[cali]

23. Oh please. You are supporting the candidate who used bigoted shit to oppose

marriage equality. Hypocrisy writ large and neon.

[dsc]

24. they both opposed it

Sanders said, in no uncertain terms, he opposed it in 2006 because it was too divisive. He did not one thing, not a single solitary thing, to advance it in Vermont nor did he pass any laws, except fair housing, while mayor of Burlington.

[cali]

25. He supported it years before she did and never fucking ever used sanctimonious

bigoted religious shit to oppose it.

Lame. So lame.

[dsc]

30. He was about even in terms of when his constiuentcy embrased it

His first statement in favor was after it was adopted by VT in 2009 by which time Hillary was frozen. The country adopted it after she announced her support in 2013.

[Sheepshank]

27. It appears that all Bernie has to do is say the words "I support" and vote.

Too many people seem to confuse empty rhetoric with: he has lobbied for, written bills, introduced and passed bills, faught in words and deeds, pressed peers for passage of bills, promoted publically his varied views especially on Women's issues, and left an indellible mark of having actually got something accomplished. They would be wrong.

[closeupready]

29. Yup. Cuz was a scaredy-cat of ... far, right-wing xtians.

Not exactly a strong constituency of Democrats. Meanwhile, gay people have been one of the most loyal, strongest Democratic constituencies forever. See who she was pandering to?

[ismnotwasm]

4. K&R

[artislife]

6. When asked what was the number one enemy we faced..

He said Climate change
She said Republicans



He is not a one trick pony.


But you know that.

[dsc]

7. she is dead right on that

Republicans are the enemy of any ideas that Democrats may offer.

[artislife]

8. Meanwhile, the planet heaves....nt

[dsc]

10. the only chance we have to get any action on that

is to defeat the GOP.

[artislife]

15. Yes, with the best candidate..Bernie Sanders

He isn't beholden to businesses that make their money denying climate change.

I have no idea how old you are, I am an Xer btw, but there are people on this planet now who will probably live through her demise of a animal friendly place. We cannot afford incremental change. Frankly, I am not convinced we are too far gone as is. In either case, it won't matter one whit if we elect a woman president. Not if she won't fight tooth and nail for the greater good.

[Empowerer]

19. I do know that you are not telling the truth - you have completely misstated what she said

Secretary Clinton was asked in a debate which enemy she was most proud to have made and she said, ""Well, in addition to the NRA, the health insurance companies, the drug companies, the Iranians . . . Probably the Republicans."

When Sanders was asked the same question, he said, "As someone who has taken on probably every special interest that there is in Washington, I would lump Wall Street and the pharmaceutical industry at the top of my life of people who do not like me."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/13/the-oct-13-democratic-debate-who-said-what-and-what-it-means/

[jeff47]

11. There's a lot of things you're skipping in Sanders record.

(Disclaimer: This is a difference of opinion. Not a claim of "I'm right!!&quot

My big problem with Sanders is that his entire career is one of favoring economic issues to the near exclusion of any other issue.

Veterans say "Hi", and thank Sanders for all his effort helping them. There are other examples you overlook.

Yes, economic issues are his primary campaign theme. But he's done a lot of other things during his career.

The simple fact is, Obama was less than a leader on this issue for much of his first term. We had to fight tooth and nail to get any accomplishments in that regard.

Yes, the Obama administration has not actually done that much fighting comes to LGBT issues. DOMA and DADT were struck down by the courts before they were repealed. Nor did he attempt to advance "gay marriage", again waiting for the courts make it happen. He did not actively oppose LGBT rights, but he also waited for others to clear the field for him.

I don't think that will be the case with Hillary, who while later to marriage equality that I would like, kept the issue of gay rights in the front of what she was doing as Secretary of State

I don't agree on the "out in front" narrative. The benefits she extended at State were offered to me in the private sector...in 1998...in the South (I'm straight, but we used the "domestic partner" benefits to buy my then-girlfriend's health insurance.). Yes, other departments were even later than State, but the path was already paved and well-worn. It's not like there was a real fight to extend those benefits.

And that lack of fighting is IMO the bigger problem. She has vocally supported a lot of "compromises" like DADT and speaks of finding "a warm, purple place" from which to govern. Compromising with religious-fundamentalist-dominated-Republicans is not going to advance any LGBT causes. And AFAIK, she doesn't have any actual fights under her belt where she actually battled the religiously insane to advance LGBT causes. She strikes me as much closer to the Obama administration - waiting for others to do the hard work while saying supportive things.

Now, I also do not have a laundry list of fights that Sanders undertook to advance LGBT rights. He's said supportive things, and he's pushed some relatively small-to-medium things through as you mention. The difference is I believe Sanders will fight, while Clinton will seek that "warm, purple place" that yields more DADT-like "compromises".

[dsc]

14. every single other department was later than state

btw I live in the South, work for government, and only got those benefits when SCOTUS ruled. And really, there was no fight to extend those benefits better call Edith Windsor.

[jeff47]

17. No fight to extend them AT STATE.

Show me Clinton actually fighting someone to extend those benefits while she was at the State department.

Also, Winsor is an example of our leadership letting someone else fight the battle in the courts - they did not actually fight DOMA until after Winsor broke it for them.

[beam me up scottie]

16. One of the reasons I don't support Hillary is her moral crusade against marriage equality:

Bernie never opposed same sex marriage on moral and religious grounds.

He didn't lobby against it because he believed marriage was a "sacred bond" between a "man and a woman" that needed to be defended.

That was Hillary and while it's nice that she evolved, one of the reasons I support Bernie is because he didn't have to.

[DemocraticWing]

20. If we're digging up the 1980s, it was illegal to be gay in the Clintons' Arkansas.

[dsc]

21. funny you should mention that

clinton, as AG, got the Sodomy law changed from a felony to a misdemeanor, the only state south of the mason dixon to have done that. Nice try though.

[riversedge]

22. I do not support Hillary on a few issues either but certainly will

vote for her in primary and GE

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Be prepared for ...

1) Being told over and over again how Bernie cares about all minority rights;
2) Being asked why you are calling Bernie a racist/sexist/heterosexist, etc.;
3) Being asked why you are calling Bernie's supporters racists/sexists/heterosexists, etc.; and,
Etc., Etc., Etc.

[cali]

28. And why shouldn't people state factually that he has an excellent

record fighting for minority rights? And do please point out the posts in this thread asking the op why she is calling Bernie or his supporters racist, sexist, etc.

Bullpucky deflection from you.

The fact is your candidate used the bigoted sanctity of marriage crap to oppose marriage equality.

[dsc]

31. he I am a guy

[cali]

32. My apologies.

[kenfrequed]

33. You obviously haven't followed Bernies record

Yeah... Bernie has been single issue his whole career....

Except:
Healthcare
Peace
Veterans issues
GLBT rights
civil rights
voting rights

Etc etc

[Armstead]

34. I understand your perspective but disagree on a number of points

I obviously won't change your mind but here is my response.

1) You are correct. Bernie can seem a bit myopic in his focus and message. I wish he was a bit more "fluid" in the way he expresses himself. However, in reality his actual goals and purpose is far broader than only bread and butter issues. He is promoting a fundamental realignment of the structure of wealth and power in the United States, which would positively affect all aspects of life.

But also, in contrast to the socialist ideologue meme, this realignment is not a radical or untrealiistic reshaping of society, as much as it is a restoration of a balance between the public interest and self interest. He is the ONLY candidate who is honest enough to point out the underlying problem that has arisen since the 1970's, which is an obscene concentration of wealth and power. That diagnosis is a necessary step towards the larger goal of bringing about the political will to reverse that and move towards economic and justice and a broader distribution of wealth and power and policies.

That affects every issue, including the social and environmental ones.

2) As for his degree of support for LGBT rights, I think you are selling him short. True he not one of the outspoken leading champions. But he has always been supportive and he has always been a strong advocate of human rights and social justice including gay rights.......AND, compared to most politicians he has been at the forefront.

He has gone against the prevailing political winds, such as his opposition to DOMA. Although he used a "conservative" state's rights argument against it publicly, rather than a ringing public defense of gay marriage, that was an attempt to politically defuse support for the bill. (Unfortunately most Democrats went along with "family values and did not join him in that.)

It's also important to look at life from the lens of particular times. Rather than dismiss his actions as Mayor, a measure like housing discrimination is the kind of law than makes a tangible difference,. And he publicly did symbolically stand for gay rights, at a time when it was not as acceptable in mainstream politics (even in Vermont).

Similarly, his supposed resistance to push for gay marriage in 2006 was NOT opposition or an attempt to stop it. Also remember, the majority of politicians -- including Democrats -- were on the "marriage is between a man and a woman" bandwagon, while the concept of civil unions was gaining acceptance. Sanders was simply saying at a time of such rapid change and controversy, , it would be more effective to and let the public assimilate the changes before taking the next step.

I won't deny that Clinton is okay on social issues, including LGBT rights. And she certainly is a champion of women's rights, and more obvious than Bernie. But she has also been further back than Bernie on otehr levels , and only caught up when it became more "acceptable." (For example, she was content to throw poor women to the wolves when she went along with Welfare Deform.)

In other words, IMO, he represents the best chance to actually push the pendulum in the opposite direction from the rightward swing of the last 35 years. The movement he represents is the best hope for actual changes that are needed to raise all boats and revitalize the political system and advance social and economic justice in the long term.